The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[Nouvellecosse]

Yeah that doesn't really have anything to do with the general safety of EVs. Even if it was/is a design defect it's just a defect of one specific model or at most the brand. But of course anytime there's anything relatively new, people tend to fixate on any problems.

[travis3000]

Teslas have actual manual door handles you can use. It's not only electronic. I find most people with Teslas have zero idea of how to use their cars. It's worth spending a couple hours when you buy one to learn about your car.

I find anytime ANYONE dies/crashes in a Tesla it makes front page news on every website. Yet there are literally hundreds of daily crashes/deaths from defective normal ICE cars whether it's a Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Mazda, Honda, Toyota, etc. The media seems to have a fascination/goal to focus on any Tesla defect. Not sure why.

[WhipperSnapper]

It's a celebrity company. $800,000,000,000!

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by travis3000

Teslas have actual manual door handles you can use. It's not only electronic. I find most people with Teslas have zero idea of how to use their cars. It's worth spending a couple hours when you buy one to learn about your car.

I find anytime ANYONE dies/crashes in a Tesla it makes front page news on every website. Yet there are literally hundreds of daily crashes/deaths from defective normal ICE cars whether it's a Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Mazda, Honda, Toyota, etc. The media seems to have a fascination/goal to focus on any Tesla defect. Not sure why.

Yeah. Here's a good example of brand new Ford ICE cars catching on fire, but very little media attention.

Ford is recalling about 39,000 SUVS after 16 catch fire under the hood

Ford is recalling more than 39,000 SUVs after 16 under-the-hood fires, the company said.

The recall covers certain 2021 Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator vehicles in the United States that were built between December 2020 and April 2021. The company is urging customers to park their cars "outside and away from structures."

Of the 16 reported incidents, 12 cars were off and parked when the fires started. The company said this week 14 of the incidents were in cars owned by rental companies.

Ford said it started investigating the fires in March but has not yet identified a cause. The company said incidents are believed to begin in the back of the engine compartment, near the vehicle's passenger side.

The company has identified one injury related to the recall, but no crashes.

"We are working around-the-clock to determine the root cause of this issue and subsequent remedy so that customers can continue to enjoy using their vehicles," Jeffrey Marentic, general manager of Ford Passenger Vehicles, said in a statement.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/20/11003...vs-engine-fire

[Greetingsfromcanada]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Yeah. Here's a good example of brand new Ford ICE cars catching on fire, but very little media attention.

EV fires burn hotter, longer, are much harder to put out and can restart hours to days later. Battery fires are just way more dangerous than engine fires, especially in confined spaces like underground parking for condos

[Greetingsfromcanada]

Originally Posted by Architype

^ He obviously did not read his owner's manual safety features section, and was deficient in knowledge of the car's operation.
I guess people have never been trapped in an ICE vehicle, ever.

If exiting your car isn't intuitive, it's the manufacturer's fault and a clear design issue. Nobody reads through car manuals unless they are looking for extremely specific information. People learn as they go with their cars

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Greetingsfromcanada

EV fires burn hotter, longer, are much harder to put out and can restart hours to days later. Battery fires are just way more dangerous than engine fires, especially in confined spaces like underground parking for condos

But this wasn't the high voltage battery on fire, it was something else.

ICE cars each carry a significant amount of liquid designed to combust in a powerful fashion. Keep things in perspective.

[giallo]

Interesting video about how we are past the peak investment in oil.

Gas was $2.33 at my pump yesterday. Thankfully, I live near good transit. My next car will be an EV, no doubt about it.

• Video Link

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Greetingsfromcanada

EV fires burn hotter, longer, are much harder to put out and can restart hours to days later. Battery fires are just way more dangerous than engine fires, especially in confined spaces like underground parking for condos

As we all know, this is a very common type of dwelling arrangement in Canada. Would be nice to see these kinks worked out of EVs before huge numbers of Canadians start sleeping over top of them!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Architype

^ He obviously did not read his owner's manual safety features section, and was deficient in knowledge of the car's operation.
I guess people have never been trapped in an ICE vehicle, ever.

FWIW, this aspect is not an EV vs ICE issue, as Tesla could have designed the vehicle with conventional mechanical linkages from an interior door handle to the latching mechanism that would allow an occupant to quickly exit the vehicle in the event of an electrical/computer system failure.

Weird how this turns into an EV vs ICE argument just because it happened to a Tesla.

IMHO, even if the driver should have read the owner's manual to mentally prepare for exit in the event of a fire, a designer/engineer should expect that many people will not read every last word in their owner's manuals (especially the features that they think they will never have to use), plus factor in the panic that sets in when a person feels trapped inside a burning vehicle. It appears that neither of these considerations were applied here.

Edit:
The above post seems to indicate otherwise - I wonder why the guy felt like he needed to kick out the window?

Originally Posted by travis3000

Teslas have actual manual door handles you can use. It's not only electronic. I find most people with Teslas have zero idea of how to use their cars. It's worth spending a couple hours when you buy one to learn about your car.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Yeah. Here's a good example of brand new Ford ICE cars catching on fire, but very little media attention.



https://www.npr.org/2022/05/20/11003...vs-engine-fire

Cars have been catching on fire as long as there have been cars. Nothing new here.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Greetingsfromcanada

EV fires burn hotter, longer, are much harder to put out and can restart hours to days later. Battery fires are just way more dangerous than engine fires, especially in confined spaces like underground parking for condos

This is my main concern with them.

I'm too lazy to look it up again at the moment, but if you do a search for firefighters' publications there are strong indications that the amount of water needed to put out an EV battery fire are several degrees higher than a traditional ICE car. That's not to say that EVs are bad, but there are different problems with them that haven't been solved yet due to their relative newness.

I think this is a fairly balanced, pragmatic article:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwin...h=665ce2f92327

Which also confirms the above point:

Thatcham’s Billyeald said there’s no doubt that EV’s pose a special problem when they do catch fire.

“Of more significance is that once an EV is on fire, it is more challenging to deal with,” he said.

EV fires can burn for days and often reignite when the fire seems to have been defeated. Fire-fighters are now trained that total immersion in a swimming pool-like structure may be the only way to make sure it’s out. And what might appear to be only slight damage can be terminal. Batteries, which can stretch to all four corners have more area to be damaged compared with an ICE under the hood. Batteries are also a huge cost component. For instance, the battery in a Jaguar I-Pace costing roughly £70,000 ($100,000) is about half - £35,000. So, insurance costs are likely to be massive and could well price these vehicles away from any but the most high-income buyers. Given that prices are currently at least twice as much as a regular ICE car, this would be a hurdle that dooms electric cars to the margins.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by esquire

As we all know, this is a very common type of dwelling arrangement in Canada. Would be nice to see these kinks worked out of EVs before huge numbers of Canadians start sleeping over top of them!

Also batteries in the house for home power generation. Home solar, wind, etc. generation is key to the success of hundreds of million electric vehicles as greener technology and to offset lithium ion battery production and recycling. Otherwise, it will come from coal and gas.

Honestly, this whole electric vehicle innovation really isn't much of a step forward as it's being sold to the public. Improving emissions and efficiency with fuel based engines can be done and would do more.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

FWIW, this aspect is not an EV vs ICE issue, as Tesla could have designed the vehicle with conventional mechanical linkages from an interior door handle to the latching mechanism that would allow an occupant to quickly exit the vehicle in the event of an electrical/computer system failure.

Weird how this turns into an EV vs ICE argument just because it happened to a Tesla.

IMHO, even if the driver should have read the owner's manual to mentally prepare for exit in the event of a fire, a designer/engineer should expect that many people will not read every last word in their owner's manuals (especially the features that they think they will never have to use), plus factor in the panic that sets in when a person feels trapped inside a burning vehicle. It appears that neither of these considerations were applied here.

Edit:
The above post seems to indicate otherwise - I wonder why the guy felt like he needed to kick out the window?

Yes, I was being slightly facetious, I took an industrial design course once; automotive design should be intuitive and not too abruptly unfamiliar. Major changes in design happen with the advancement of technology, but things that divert the driver's attention and require too many menu selections, or controls that are confusing or hidden, are a real danger. Finding a way to escape in an emergency should not require extensive study, but as the owner of a fully electronic computerised vehicle he wasn't very smart to not know this.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Architype

Yes, I was being slightly facetious, I took an industrial design course once; automotive design should be intuitive and not too abruptly unfamiliar. Major changes in design happen with the advancement of technology, but things that divert the driver's attention and require too many menu selections, or controls that are confusing or hidden, are a real danger. Finding a way to escape in an emergency should not require extensive study, but as the owner of a fully electronic computerised vehicle he wasn't very smart to not know this.

Did he try using voice commands to exit the vehicle? Tesla fans always tell me that the bad UI is made up for by the fact that the voice commands almost always work 50% of some of the time.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Honestly, this whole electric vehicle innovation really isn't much of a step forward as it's being sold to the public. Improving emissions and efficiency with fuel based engines can be done and would do more.

Where is the efficiency? Hundreds of Billions of dollars have gone into that research over the last century. That's it. We've reached the end of how efficient controlled explosions of fossil fuels can get.

Really they peaked with the advent of hybrid cars, who can store that little bit more energy to use for propulsion.

EVs are a huge innovation. They were made possible by battery tech driven by portable electronics (cell phones mostly). That allowed the cost and energy density to work for cars at somewhat reasonable prices. We'll see more innovation and advancement in battery tech in the decades to come, just like we did after the Model T rolled off the line in Michigan 100+ years ago.

[WarrenC12]

Most people who've never been in a Tesla will grab at the manual handle to get out rather than push the button that does the same thing.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Where is the efficiency? Hundreds of Billions of dollars have gone into that research over the last century. That's it. We've reached the end of how efficient controlled explosions of fossil fuels can get.

Really they peaked with the advent of hybrid cars, who can store that little bit more energy to use for propulsion.

EVs are a huge innovation. They were made possible by battery tech driven by portable electronics (cell phones mostly). That allowed the cost and energy density to work for cars at somewhat reasonable prices. We'll see more innovation and advancement in battery tech in the decades to come, just like we did after the Model T rolled off the line in Michigan 100+ years ago.

The hundreds of billions that have gone into research have also resulted in much more efficient engines than what is currently on the road. Politics got in the way.

Electric vehicles have been around longer than the internal combustion engine and engine battery storage technology shares with designs created 100 years ago. Anyways, the concerns with EVs is the sudden rapid scalability pursued by politics over being the best environmentally. We aren't prepared to handle all these vehicles. I've heard a lot of optimism over EVs being obsolete in less than 50 years .That's a lot of infrastructure to be implemented for 50 years or less.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Having not been in a Tesla yet, I decided to look it up. Not sure if the Model Y is the same, but the Model 3 seems fairly intuitive - but only if you know about it - as there doesn't seem to be any labeling to indicate that it is an emergency release. I could see somebody just thinking it's a part of the trim, especially if it's a panic situation.



Source

More disturbingly to me is that the emergency manual releases are on the front doors only. I pity a person trapped in the back seat with the front seat occupants unconscious or unable to help (due to an accident), especially with an impending fire.

Intuitively, I can't see any reason for this except cost reduction (which isn't a good reason IMHO). I'm surprised, actually, that the NHTSA hasn't raised this as an issue.

Regarding fire in the high voltage battery, as Tesla indicates, it's nothing to mess with:

USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches
fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts of
water to cool the battery. It can take between approximately 3,000-8,000 gallons
(11,356-30,283 liters) of water, applied directly to the battery, to fully extinguish
and cool down a battery fire; always establish or request additional water supply
early. If water is not immediately available, use CO2, dry chemicals, or another
typical fire-extinguishing agent to fight the fire until water is available.
NOTE: Tesla does not recommend the use of foam on electric vehicles.

Tesla does not recommend placing the vehicle in a large container full of water. The use
of a Thermal Imagery Camera or Infrared (TIC or IR) is recommended to monitor battery
temperatures during the cooling process. Continue to use water until the battery has reached
ambient temperatures or below, indicated by the thermal imagery camera. When utilizing a
thermal imaging camera, allow enough time, once the application of water has stopped, to allow
for heat within the battery to transfer to the battery enclosure.

Battery fires can take up to 24 hours to fully cool. After suppression and smoke has
visibly subsided, a thermal imaging camera can be used to actively measure the
temperature of the high voltage battery and monitor the trend of heating or
cooling. There must be no fire, smoke, audible popping/hissing, or heating present in the high
voltage battery for at least 45 minutes before the vehicle can be released to second responders
(such as law enforcement, vehicle transporters, etc.). The battery must be completely cooled
before releasing the vehicle to second responders or otherwise leaving the incident.
Always advise second responders that there is a risk of battery re-ignition. Second responders
should be advised to position the vehicle to drain excess water out of the vehicle by tilting or
repositioning it. This operation can assist in mitigating possible re-ignition.

Due to potential re-ignition, a Model Y that has been involved in a submersion, fire, or a collision
that has compromised the high voltage battery should be stored in an open area at least 50 feet
(15 m) from any exposure.

Note that these measures are far beyond any ICE vehicle fire, and as mentioned are my main concern with current-day EVs. I do think that eventually evolving technologies will solve this problem (i.e. battery design, firefighting techniques, etc.), but we won't be there for a number of years, IMHO.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

The hundreds of billions that have gone into research have also resulted in much more efficient engines than what is currently on the road. Politics got in the way.

I'm going to need a little more detail than that. If "politics" suppressed anything, it was alternatives to fossil fuels. Lobbyists for oil and gas have minimized the negative impacts of burning oil for decades.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Electric vehicles have been around longer than the internal combustion engine and engine battery storage technology shares with designs created 100 years ago. Anyways, the concerns with EVs is the sudden rapid scalability pursued by politics over being the best environmentally. We aren't prepared.

I just mentioned the reason, battery tech driven by consumer electronics advanced them enough to be feasible in EVs that can compete and beat the existing gas engine models.

What aren't we prepared for?

Burning more fossil fuels is certainly something we aren't prepared for.