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  #41  
Old Posted May 25, 2026, 1:45 PM
streetscaper streetscaper is online now
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
What's the most 'unlikely' city in the US? The kind of place built in unforgiving topography, and difficult for infrastructure, but in the end makes for urban drama.

I love how San Francisco is so hilly, and spans a giant bay that it's had to bridge multiple times.

I would also say NYC's core, Manhattan, being an island (and, more generally, metro NYC being built over a series of islands) means it falls into the unforgiving topography category. Had to be bridged and tunnel'd dozens of times over to stitch everything together, but it certainly makes for a dramatic cityscape.
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  #42  
Old Posted May 25, 2026, 6:27 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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In order for a city to get really dramatic, usually things began modestly on a flat piece of land surrounded by hills. If the city gets out-of-hand, the neighborhoods inevitably must start climbing the hillsides. Because most of the east coast and central section of the United States is flat, this only happened in a few places.

Last night I thought of this thread when I drove past this oddity on Hill St. in Cincinnati, a small apartment building with its own inclined elevator:


Here is the spot on streetview:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hill+S..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDUyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Here is the view from the church visible above that apartment (do a 360):
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hill+S..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDUyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

This church has its annual festival in this little wedge of concrete overlooking the river and city. It's one of the most old-world settings in the interior of the United States.
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  #43  
Old Posted May 25, 2026, 6:52 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
I’d challenge people on Phoenix though. That’s a great place for a major population center. It may be hot, but it’s a rich agricultural valley with a halfway decent water supply
Perhaps. If Baghdad could support 1 million people a thousand years ago then maybe Phoenix could have too. Phoenix doesn't have a navigable waterway though so it would've been useless as a large population center until the 20th century.
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  #44  
Old Posted May 25, 2026, 8:56 PM
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I always assumed *wrongly* that Kansas City would be flat

Here's some examples to prove that wrong. I'm sure KC forumers could come up with even better examples

in the heart of downtown

streetview: https://maps.app.goo.gl/qKoBqR6s2jcX4XtE7

looking south on Main St. towards the Country Club Plaza area


Looking east on W 12th St. from the West Bottoms area towards downtown KC

streetview: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Ah8zyD1AxePgJ5PD9

random downtown street E 10th St.

streetview: https://maps.app.goo.gl/3Bcr5EmCfQx9yd2e9
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  #45  
Old Posted May 25, 2026, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by plinko View Post
The lowest point in Phoenix would be out by the Gila River, about 1,000ft. The highest point is Camelback Mountain at 2,704ft. Oddly, both would have been within city limits in 1980.

Downtown Phoenix sits at roughly 1,085ft.
Camelback Mountain would have been the highest point back in 1980.

The highest point now is technically Whiskey Spring Head (Unnamed Hilltop): 2,866.4 feet — Located in the newly expanded far-northern city limits near Lake Pleasant.

https://www.peakbagger.com/peak.aspx?pid=47015
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  #46  
Old Posted May 25, 2026, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by azliam View Post
Camelback Mountain would have been the highest point back in 1980.

The highest point now is technically Whiskey Spring Head (Unnamed Hilltop): 2,866.4 feet — Located in the newly expanded far-northern city limits near Lake Pleasant.

https://www.peakbagger.com/peak.aspx?pid=47015
Thanks you two. I will add Phoenix.
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  #47  
Old Posted May 26, 2026, 1:21 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
I always assumed *wrongly* that Kansas City would be flat
KC most certainly is *not* flat, (and neither is much of Kansas). The downtown is situated on a bluff above the Missouri River. There is an old two-level viaduct that slopes down to "The Bottoms":
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kansas..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDUyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
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  #48  
Old Posted May 26, 2026, 2:03 PM
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The city of Detroit is pretty flat with a 97' elevation gap but nearby Ann Arbor has a 338' gap. The highest point in Ann Arbor is roughly 1,070' above sea level and the lowest point is 732'.
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  #49  
Old Posted May 26, 2026, 5:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
^Chattanooga is missing, which runs away with the prize for the eastern United States. The lowest point is 620 and the highest is 2,400. More importantly, the city is one of the few with real neighborhoods built atop very high hills, tunnels bored through hillsides, etc.

Atlanta *could* have scored very high in this realm if the city had been founded closer to Stone Mountain, which is about 800 feet high. It would have been amazing if the city neighborhoods had grown to surround it. Instead, it's an anomaly that comes into view while circling 285.
Yeah, Chattanooga is literally the “Scenic City”. It has two mountains surrounding it in an impressive river valley. I haven’t been to Pittsburgh yet, but I am sure it will be up there as one of the most scenic major eastern cities.
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  #50  
Old Posted May 26, 2026, 5:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
KC most certainly is *not* flat, (and neither is much of Kansas). The downtown is situated on a bluff above the Missouri River. There is an old two-level viaduct that slopes down to "The Bottoms":
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kansas..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDUyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
yeah I was showing the view from the top of the 12th St. viaduct. You showed underneath. We're on the same page.

This is a good view from the West Bottoms of the bluff of downtown KC with the tallest building ~625ft tall peaking out in blue on the right


zoomed in

Last edited by Wigs; May 26, 2026 at 6:05 PM.
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  #51  
Old Posted May 26, 2026, 8:04 PM
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Originally Posted by streetscaper View Post
I would also say NYC's core, Manhattan, being an island (and, more generally, metro NYC being built over a series of islands) means it falls into the unforgiving topography category. Had to be bridged and tunnel'd dozens of times over to stitch everything together, but it certainly makes for a dramatic cityscape.
One thing I found dramatic when I when I visited was how geography dictated the urban realm so much. Being on an island meant building had to head upwards at some stage, when running out of space, and bridged at every available point, then filled with jetties and quays. Plus the fact the island was striated with granite (at lower Manhattan and Midtown) meaning going higher could more easily be built upon, hence a greater density of highrises in separated places, and historic too. Other places that had similar demands could not so easily build as such back in the day.






What the Brooklyn -Queens Expressway could become:





Other rocky 'islands' easy to highrise on, without deep foundations, are Hong Kong, Mumbai and the Yuzhong Peninsular in Chongqing, but their skyscraper fever only came in the late 20th/ 21st Century.

The NYC islands also added drama - the placing of the Statue of Liberty being the most iconic.

Finally the fact the Hudson Valley is a fjord, with rocky hillsides on either side when you headed north within the city, and upstate. I feel NYC still has a wonderful opportunity to build on all of this. It's rare that a city in this day and age has still such major features to exploit, if ever the economics will allow it.

1. The islands becoming unique attractions or parks, each with their own character.

2. The granite hillsides attracting dramatic housing and building (rather than a shelf for a highway)

3. The numerous unused wharfs reborn as waterside regenerations, once again each with their own character. The 'coastline' is made much, much bigger than similar cities, and compacted into walkable distances. There are already famous wharfs where this reinvention has come to fruiion, but imagine if all of them followed suit.


In short, what can be a restriction in a city can become a highlight, and NYC is a good example. However, it can still go further (which is a good thing, it's not reached it's potential yet)


Other good examples include some of the most celebrated of cities, despite their problematic siting - Hong Kong, Venice, San Francisco, Rome, Chongqing, Wuhan, Constantine (Algeria), Istanbul, Amsterdam, Singapore, St Petersburg, Sydney, Edinburgh, Rio, Barcelona.

And soon to come, Mumbai, which is currently a fever dream/ nightmare for an urban planner:

[/img]






Another US city I've heard is even more dramatically sited is Pittsburgh.

Last edited by muppet; May 26, 2026 at 9:01 PM.
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  #52  
Old Posted May 26, 2026, 8:35 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
1. The islands becoming unique attractions or parks.
Not sure when you were last here but this is what was done to Governor's Island in New York Harbor about 15 years ago. Some of the other islands have contamination issues that need to be sorted before they can be opened to the public though.

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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
2. The granite hillsides attracting dramatic housing (rather than a highway)
There is a rail right-of-way up the west side of Manhattan and the Bronx. The highway was built there because the rail ROW already existed. The only way to move housing closer to the shore than it already is would be to tunnel the rail line. But that would be extremely expensive because of the bedrock.

However, they did do this in Brooklyn, which did not previously have a heavy rail line along the waterfront before they started building housing. The highway came after the housing and runs underneath the boardwalk here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/NZvYuswg8mP8BJSk8
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  #53  
Old Posted May 26, 2026, 9:03 PM
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That's a beaut. Are there any plans or sentiment to bury the other highways, that hug the perimeters of there (or Manhattan)? Or build embankments and boardwalks beyond them?

I would imagine if not now, maybe later.
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  #54  
Old Posted May 26, 2026, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
That's a beaut. Are there any plans or sentiment to bury the other highways, that hug the perimeters of there (or Manhattan)? Or build embankments and boardwalks beyond them?

I would imagine if not now, maybe later.
There is public space along just much of the waterfront on the outside of the perimeter highways in Manhattan and Brooklyn, but very little housing on the exterior of the perimeters. There is a bike trail along the outer periphery of West Side Highway that is connected to a bike trail network that goes throughout New York State. The highways in Manhattan (West Side Hwy and FDR) are partially built on landfill so they will likely never be buried. The West Side Highway was actually elevated until the 1970s. It was torn down due to deterioration and transformed into an at-grade boulevard below 59th Street.
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  #55  
Old Posted May 26, 2026, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
Another US city I've heard is even more dramatically sited is Pittsburgh.
It's arguably the most unlikely topography on which to build a major city in the US. Sometimes when moving around the city, you think to yourself... this just really doesn't make much sense. But that's kinda the unique charm, I guess.

Aside from the oft-referenced number of bridges in the city/region, staircases dating from the 1860s to traverse the slopes provide a glimpse into how the city's neighborhoods were built right into the completely erratic, hilly topography. Then throw in winter, and you just get somewhere that can be a rather insane urban environment.

Last edited by pj3000; May 27, 2026 at 7:35 PM.
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  #56  
Old Posted May 27, 2026, 4:14 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
There is a rail right-of-way up the west side of Manhattan and the Bronx.
Earlier this year I read an article from the 1930s that detailed the grade separation of that project around 1930~. It cost $150 million - a truly staggering sum for a project nobody thinks about today (more than construction of Penn Station), and it doesn't seem to receive much traffic (by NYC standards). That same periodical reported that construction of the IND subway in the late 1920s-early 1930s was about $400 million - at the time the largest civic improvement in the history of Planet Earth.
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  #57  
Old Posted May 27, 2026, 4:33 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Pittsburgh
Cincinnati has many similar hillside staircases and had five inclines until the last one was torn down in 1947. The big difference between Cincinnati and Pittsburgh inclines is that the Cincinnati streetcars traveled on the inclines as part of their regular routes:




Here is a video, complete with some sort of Kentucky accent + strip tease music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZcnoGg9vBs

Obviously, tearing down the last incline in 1947 and not keeping it as a tourist attraction was a giant mistake. They could have kept its streetcar line running too, just like in New Orleans, without it being a big point of conflict because it didn't travel through a busy part of town.

Here are some staircases:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1122264,..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDUyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.119459,-..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDUyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1230791,..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDUyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
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  #58  
Old Posted May 27, 2026, 4:41 AM
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Duluth seems to span around 900' or so. I wonder if that's the most east of the Mississippi...

edit: evidently Chattanooga beats it by quite a bit.
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  #59  
Old Posted May 27, 2026, 4:46 AM
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Looks like Reno might squeak past SLC here too with 5370 ft between max and min (unverified by me...)

Juneau seems to range up to 8507' though...
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  #60  
Old Posted May 27, 2026, 5:20 AM
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Some Canadian cities... note this is the largest elevation difference within city limits (which appears to be what the OP is comparing).

227m / 744' -- Montreal
152m / 500' -- Vancouver
132.5m / 435' -- Toronto

If we're doing greater metro regions, Vancouver skyrockets to 6530ft, Toronto to 996ft and Montreal would stay the same.
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