The Economic, Human Cost of London's Car-Dependency

[bolognium]

Originally Posted by Nintentario

*clears throat*

*leans into mic*


Yes.



~~~~~~

Banned, or radically reduced.

So what would that look like in practice, Nintentario?

[K85]

Glad I don't post here too often. Y'all need to hug this one out.

[Nintentario]

Originally Posted by bolognium

Banned, or radically reduced.

So what would that look like in practice, Nintentario?

There's a million places to start!

First off, when a pedestrian is hit, that intersection is automatically placed under review, and studies as to how it happened and what infrastructure can be put in place to avoid it are recommended and, next time that road is being renewed, these new infrastructure recommendations must be followed.

Y'know, so that the deaths would stop? That's kinda all I want lol. But there's 999,999,999 more reasons I'm not capable of communicating well, clearly lol. Can we assume everyone on this forum is aware of NotJustBikes? He literally compares London Ontario with better examples quite often. This one came out last week and provides a very clear idea of "what this would look like in practice". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uqbsueNvag

Also, to skewer your "immigrants on boats with 20% lethality" argument... I'm not coerced to take a boat to my job, or the grocery store, and boats aren't crashing outside my building.

Not that unrealistic, eh? I'm led to believe the very emotional responses directed at my "soap-boxing" are stronger than the responses to local death. Weird! It's almost like we're subconciously aware we could do better and don't want to... and when confronted, the cognitive dissonance makes us upset. Makes sense I guess, but it's... dissappointing.

~~~~~~

[Nintentario]

Originally Posted by K85

Glad I don't post here too often. Y'all need to hug this one out.

Well I certainly can't hug my brother that was killed by a driver, sooo....

[manny_santos]

As a longtime London resident who now resides in BC (and still lurks here several times a week) and visits 3-4 times a year, I really notice how London is extremely car-centric and lacks both walkability and public transit, particularly outside of downtown and a couple other neighbourhoods. London has horrendous traffic for a city of its size; it ranked 12th worst in North America in a 2023 study, surpassing Los Angeles and other large US cities. (https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/turns-out-londons-a-world-class-city-for-traffic-congestion) This leads to a lack of patience among drivers.

There was a long period of time in London when pedestrians were completely forgotten. As an example, when the commercial area of Oxford and Hyde Park was redeveloped in 2004-2006, there was no pedestrian friendly infrastructure put in place. The new development was built entirely around cars (despite there being several apartment buildings in the area and houses within walking distance); for a number of years after that there wasn’t even a sidewalk available to access the area around Remark Market, pedestrians had to walk on the road into the parking lot.

London also continues to prioritize new car-centric big box development on the peripheries of the city, such as along Wonderland south of Southdale. This creates more and more opportunities for car/pedestrian conflicts.

There would be less car traffic in London (and less opportunity for pedestrians to be struck) if there was proper infrastructure in place to make it possible for people to not have to drive for every single errand. There isn’t even any usable public transit for commuters from surrounding communities to go to the city for employment or other errands, so that adds extra cars to London traffic from places like Strathroy, St. Thomas and Ilderton.

I live in a community now where I can walk to the grocery store, I can take SkyTrain into downtown Vancouver, I can walk and buy a coffee from a non-chain restaurant in my own neighbourhood. Yes, we have problems with traffic and there are deficiencies in the regional road network in Metro Vancouver, but this is more of a lack of proper infrastructure for long distance truck traffic than forcing people to drive everywhere using personal cars. I use my car very little now, mostly for recreation. I’m in London right now and where my parents live in the west end, it’s just endless houses with nothing except Boler Mountain within walking distance. One must otherwise drive everywhere, or wait 30-40 minutes for a bus that takes over an hour to get to Masonville (with transfer).

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I’m in London right now and where my parents live in the west end, it’s just endless houses with nothing except Boler Mountain within walking distance. One must otherwise drive everywhere, or wait 30-40 minutes for a bus that takes over an hour to get to Masonville (with transfer).

I think your parents made the conscious decision to live near the ski hill and not near the A&P Plaza. Is that London city hall's fault that the houses near the ski hill are bigger, newer and nicer than old Byron however many decades ago that was?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

As a longtime London resident who now resides in BC (and still lurks here several times a week) and visits 3-4 times a year, I really notice how London is extremely car-centric and lacks both walkability and public transit, particularly outside of downtown and a couple other neighbourhoods. London has horrendous traffic for a city of its size; it ranked 12th worst in North America in a 2023 study, surpassing Los Angeles and other large US cities. (https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/turns-out-londons-a-world-class-city-for-traffic-congestion) This leads to a lack of patience among drivers.

There was a long period of time in London when pedestrians were completely forgotten. As an example, when the commercial area of Oxford and Hyde Park was redeveloped in 2004-2006, there was no pedestrian friendly infrastructure put in place. The new development was built entirely around cars (despite there being several apartment buildings in the area and houses within walking distance); for a number of years after that there wasn’t even a sidewalk available to access the area around Remark Market, pedestrians had to walk on the road into the parking lot.

London also continues to prioritize new car-centric big box development on the peripheries of the city, such as along Wonderland south of Southdale. This creates more and more opportunities for car/pedestrian conflicts.

There would be less car traffic in London (and less opportunity for pedestrians to be struck) if there was proper infrastructure in place to make it possible for people to not have to drive for every single errand. There isn’t even any usable public transit for commuters from surrounding communities to go to the city for employment or other errands, so that adds extra cars to London traffic from places like Strathroy, St. Thomas and Ilderton.

I live in a community now where I can walk to the grocery store, I can take SkyTrain into downtown Vancouver, I can walk and buy a coffee from a non-chain restaurant in my own neighbourhood. Yes, we have problems with traffic and there are deficiencies in the regional road network in Metro Vancouver, but this is more of a lack of proper infrastructure for long distance truck traffic than forcing people to drive everywhere using personal cars. I use my car very little now, mostly for recreation. I’m in London right now and where my parents live in the west end, it’s just endless houses with nothing except Boler Mountain within walking distance. One must otherwise drive everywhere, or wait 30-40 minutes for a bus that takes over an hour to get to Masonville (with transfer).

Great post. My wife's from London. So we're in London often enough to visit the in-laws. Everytime I go I am struck by two things:

1) The incredible urban potential of an old city that didn't build a highway through the centre. It's really a city small enough that you can have most amenities within a 15 min walk and a lot of commuting should be possible by 15 min bus or bike ride.

2) The absolute ignorance and hatred for urbanism by most of the people I meet. There seems to be this idea that transit is for poor students. And that bike lanes are big city idiocy from Toronto.

Over the break, my MIL was going on about how serious the bike lanes are and how bad traffic is. They live near Masonville and were complaining about the traffic near the university. My wife (also an NJB fan) just looked at me and rolled her eyes. They don't get it. So much wasted potential in a city small enough to get around everywhere really quickly by foot or bike or bus.

And since London doesn't have the room or finances to really keep expanding most roads, I can't wait to see what the traffic will be a decade from now. And if HSR to London ever happens and it really becomes a full fledged GTA exurb? Oh man... I don't even want to imagine.

[Djeffery]

People whining about the bike lanes aren't even paying close enough attention to them to realize most of them replaced on street parking, not traffic lanes. There was a time when Dundas was 4 lanes from Wellington to Adelaide and then 4 lanes again from Elizabeth all the way east but a lot of that was reduced years ago to 2 lanes to add on street parking. It was barely noticed. Colborne hasn't been hurt by having bike lanes. Bring more of them. Expand the TVP, give Molson his bridge, so there is more safer off road access. I love bike lanes, I hate having to share lanes with bikes especially in my truck. Even if they did something stupid or reacted to someone else doing something stupid, the cyclist usually comes out injured or dead. So whatever we can do to make the roads safer for bikes and also provide safer routes for bikes to get places, I'm all for it.

I would say the only thing the city fucked up on with the Dundas east bike lane was, while they were kind enough to put loading zones in certain spots for delivery trucks to park, they didn't bother to put sloped curb access from the loading zone up onto the sidewalk. So someone like me who needs to deliver a heavy skid of product to a store on this stretch now has to drag it down the live lane of traffic to a driveway, as seen in this image, which also shows a car parked in the loading zone
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.9906855,-..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[K85]

I sympathize for this and sorry for your loss. You are still, however, a bit much over thinking on some topics.

I get it. If you argue for 100 percent change, and 50 is offered, you're kinda happy. If you want 50, you'll get 25. So always argue higher.

Originally Posted by Nintentario

Well I certainly can't hug my brother that was killed by a driver, sooo....

[MolsonExport]

Some really good posts on this page. Coming from Montreal, I am very frustrated by the mindset among many in London that transit is only for poor people and students. You get what you pay for (in this case, what you invest in). If you invest only in roads, you get stroads and big box barf/banality. If you invest in mass/rapid transit (as opposed to only perfunctory bus routes, that have to take the same roads that are always clogged with automobile and truck traffic...since there are no highways running through or North of London), you will get density along these mass/rapid transit corridors, and with that residential density, other forms of commercial development become possible, the type that are not just retail/restaurant chains, with the same cookie cutter designs, the same acres of parking, and the same hostility to any other form of mobility, be it pedestrian or bike). And we are not moving in the right direction...the BRT is bare-bones, covering only a fraction of the city, while we keep disproportionately building car-centric residential and commercial developments. Hence we end up with a boring cookie-cutter landscape. That big box barf smartcentre at Hyde Park (or at Wonderland/Southdale) is almost exactly like the one in St. Thomas, and like the ones in Cambridge, Milton, etc....everything looks the same, and there is a dearth of charm/uniqueness). It is embarrassing, when people come to visit me here in London, and all I have to offer is downtown (filled with Junkies, but also with so much potential...) and Wortley Village (wonderful, for about 4 square blocks, but now that Black Walnut is gone, you can't get a decent coffee...).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Nintentario

Well I certainly can't hug my brother that was killed by a driver, sooo....

Oh my god, that is terrible. So sorry to hear this.

[MolsonExport]

give Molson his bridge

[Nintentario]

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/mess...-speeding-driver-craziness-needs-to-stop

Family of woman killed by speeding car driver speaks out: 'Craziness needs to stop'.


In response to several roads being "overdesigned for speed", London city council announces a review of artierial roads to lower speed limits to 35km/hr, London Free Press article: https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/made-you-look


A Londoner discusses possible ways to improve our city:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbnBc-97Ps&t=93s


~~~~~~

[HuronZephyr]

Originally Posted by bolognium

I think where you and I differ is when it comes to the implementation and feasibility of safety improvements. Whether a safety improvement is financially and politically feasible, vs whether it is objectively the safest decision.

[...]

The car-brain monolith in North America is still too large and too entrenched for us to just redesign every road, every intersection, every highway, whenever someone tragically dies. It's truly sad, but that's just our reality in North America right now.

[...]

A major part of the problem has been, and still is, that car ownership has been conflated with freedom and independence, and this is what people vote for. Hence the unwillingness of politicians to direct planning and public works staff to re-engineer things so people are less car-dependent.

An associated problem is that goverrnments are addicted to gasoline taxes because they fund road construction and maintenance, and so in this regard alone, we are kind of stuck. Even if you got rid of all the cars tomorrow, commercial trucks and public transit busses would still need roads.

Yet another issue is that the auto industry generates a lot of jobs, and politicians are loath to let go of those jobs lest they lose votes and get booted out of office, or to let go of the tax revenues those jobs generate. Plus all the spin-off economic activity.

[Nintentario]

“Teacher, four high-school students dead in Ontario crash”
May 25 2025

A 17-year old student. Dead.
A 17-year old student. Dead.
A 16-year old student. Dead.
A 16-year old student. Dead.
A 33-year old teacher. Dead.



Five lives.
Four teens who should be comparing test scores, not autopsy reports.
One teacher who should be writing report cards, not eulogies in a church bulletin.
All of them erased—instantly—because our region treats 4 000-pound private vehicles as the default, inevitable way to move people.

This is not a fluke. It’s math.
Ontario’s preliminary 2023 road-safety report shows 592 people killed in motor-vehicle collisions—roughly eleven funerals every single week. London’s own Vision Zero policy literally declares “no loss of life is acceptable”—yet fatalities keep climbing because policy without hard infrastructure is asinine.


“Just an accident” is a lie we tell ourselves. This was a statistical certainty.

“But it was a country road.”
“But everyone here drives; that’s just life.”
“But you can’t haul Costco groceries on a bus.”

Reality check: streets are engineered systems. They deliver exactly the outcomes they’re designed for. Wider lanes, higher design speeds, missing cycling links and unsafe rural highways all guarantee more crashes per kilometre travelled—no matter how careful the individual driver thinks they are.



Who's children will be next? Tune in next week to find out!



~~~~~~

[K85]

Mine will be fine thanks

Who's children will be next? Tune in next week to find out!

[bolognium]

Originally Posted by Nintentario

“Teacher, four high-school students dead in Ontario crash”
May 25 2025

Looking at the intersection where this accident occurred, I'm curious what changes you'd hope to see implemented that may have prevented this. Ontario alone must have thousands of rural intersections that look exactly like this one.

I still don't really understand what you're hoping to achieve with your posts here. This is tragic and I feel for everyone involved, but what exactly would you like to see come from this? How do you propose we end traffic fatalities at rural intersections like this one? What changes would need to be implemented across thousands of rural intersections like this one to put an end to traffic fatalities?

[MolsonExport]

Horrific Tragedy for sure, but cars/trucks aren't going anywhere, especially out in the country. I don't see a hue and cry for going back to horse and carriage days.

[inimrepus]

Originally Posted by bolognium

Looking at the intersection where this accident occurred, I'm curious what changes you'd hope to see implemented that may have prevented this. Ontario alone must have thousands of rural intersections that look exactly like this one.]

The only change that I can think of for that intersection would be to add rumble strips before the stop sign to warn people that there is a stop sign coming up.

[Snark]

Originally Posted by Nintentario

All of them erased—instantly—because our region treats 4 000-pound private vehicles as the default, inevitable way to move people.

The folks who perished in this incident needed to travel approx. 150 km, point to point, in a reasonable time period. If private automobiles on public roads should not be the default method, what is that current alternative method that is economically affordable, practical to use at a personal level including cargo, moves people from any point to point traverse in competitive time frames, and in most all weather conditions? Not just for this particular case, but for most people most of the time. Name your alternative solution instead of just repeatedly publishing the names of the deceased.

Originally Posted by Nintentario

This is not a fluke. It’s math.Ontario’s preliminary 2023 road-safety report shows 592 people killed in motor-vehicle collisions—roughly eleven funerals every single week.

That represents one half of one percent of all people who died in Ontario that year. A quick search shows 177 billion person-kilometers driven in Ontario in a year, so that would represent one fatality every 295 million kilometers driven.

Any fatality is a tragedy. Premature, unanticipated, and potentially violent fatalities are even much more. That is without question and undebatable.

However… the public openly accept these risk factors and levels of injury/loss of life associated with personal automobile use. This acceptance is nearly universal amongst the greater public. How would you roll out and enforce restrictions/elimination of personal vehicles to this same general public in a way that they would readily accept? Again, name your alternative strategy instead of just repeatedly publishing the names of the deceased.

Originally Posted by Nintentario

Reality check: streets are engineered systems. They deliver exactly the outcomes they’re designed for. Wider lanes, higher design speeds, missing cycling links and unsafe rural highways all guarantee more crashes per kilometre travelled

I used to design streets in a prior life. I never fired up my CAD software and thought: “how can I design a street to be dangerous and potentially lethal”? In an urban setting, lanes haven’t got dramatically wider and in most cases design speeds have remained the same or gone down – not up.

I have driven through the intersection where this particular incident occurred more than a thousand times. This location does not represent an “unsafe rural highway” as you label it. There are no dramatic vertical or horizontal curves and sightlines are clear for at least 400 metres from the intersection.

The authorities say that the leading contributors to increased auto accidents are reckless driving, distracted driving, and alcohol. All these things are operator error or negligence, not road design.

Originally Posted by Nintentario

Who's children will be next? Tune in next week to find out!

That’s just bizarre and vulgar coming from someone who would seem to have tremendous concerns about the matter (however misguided those concerns are)