Developers Paint Bleak Picture of Vancouver's Future Under Status Quo

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

People had their head in the sand then. Foreign speculation did drive up prices. Nor is this a question of blaming foreigners or not blaming foreigners. Current immigration levels are not sustainable based on housing costs. Foreigners are not to blame for that but continuing with the status quo will lead to further strain. People will emotionally react and lash out at what they perceive to be the cause because that is human nature. The truth is more nuanced and like you said, you cannot blame people for following their aspirations. That being said, realtors and developers disingenuously used your anti-racist argument to support no intervention in these matters, thereby increasing the strain and therefore the frustration.

Fifty points to Ravenclaw.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Fifty points to Ravenclaw.

I am a Ravenclaw, haha.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

People had their head in the sand then. Foreign speculation did drive up prices. Nor is this a question of blaming foreigners or not blaming foreigners. Current immigration levels are not sustainable based on housing costs. Foreigners are not to blame for that but continuing with the status quo will lead to further strain. People will emotionally react and lash out at what they perceive to be the cause because that is human nature. The truth is more nuanced and like you said, you cannot blame people for following their aspirations. That being said, realtors and developers disingenuously used your anti-racist argument to support no intervention in these matters, thereby increasing the strain and therefore the frustration.

Yes indeed. Why do some posters think quoting a real estate board as credible source? Realtors and their boards were the dealers that sold the meth.

And of course those who continually play the racist card, citing the same article over and over ignore the fact that the majority of immigrants don't arrive here with a silver spoon in their mouth. And to make it worse they have to compete in the same hyper-inflated real estate market without the benefit of established careers etc.

It's the likes of the people I cited in the court case above, or Meng "two mansions" Wenzhou who looked at the city as a place to stash cash and didn't really have to worry what they overpaid for their slice of Vancouver that drove up prices for everyone. They are the marginal buyers that set the price.

[misher]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Yes indeed. Why do some posters think quoting a real estate board as credible source? Realtors and their boards were the dealers that sold the meth.

And of course those who continually play the racist card, citing the same article over and over ignore the fact that the majority of immigrants don't arrive here with a silver spoon in their mouth. And to make it worse they have to compete in the same hyper-inflated real estate market without the benefit of established careers etc.

It's the likes of the people I cited in the court case above, or Meng "two mansions" Wenzhou who looked at the city as a place to stash cash and didn't really have to worry what they overpaid for their slice of Vancouver that drove up prices for everyone. They are the marginal buyers that set the price.

Uh most immigrants do arrive with a silver spoon in their mouth. Its very expensive to come here so only the top of most third world nations can do so. I still remember dating an Indian girl who I considered poor but who has a driver and a maid back home. Even our refugees tend to be the upper crust of their respective nations.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by misher

Broadway skytrain was almost cancelled after approval a few months back because Transit and the Province requires Vancouver to densify around skytrains in return for the funding. Certain Councillors still voted or expressed support for cancelling the Broadway plan.

PS: 3 years to figure out what we're going to build down Broadway is ridiculous.

Source? I must have missed some drama.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by misher

Uh most immigrants do arrive with a silver spoon in their mouth. Its very expensive to come here so only the top of most third world nations can do so. I still remember dating an Indian girl who I considered poor but who has a driver and a maid back home. Even our refugees tend to be the upper crust of their respective nations.

... That's a pretty audacious claim for a sample size of just one.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Source? I must have missed some drama.

No source, it's a gross exaggeration. This is what really happened.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

... That's a pretty audacious claim for a sample size of just one...

Yes, especially considering it is not unsual for the middle class in India to have domestic help, given the huge labour pool and low wages.

I assume our friend thinks all folks driving taxis or working hard as hospital orderlies etc got into Canada with large sums of cash.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

... That's a pretty audacious claim for a sample size of just one.



No source, it's a gross exaggeration. This is what really happened.

I was referring to a recent city council meeting where I forget her name made a motion to cancel the Broadway plan and Stewart got up and told Council that if they cancel this plan the government will likely withdraw funding for the project because the city can't get its affairs in order.

Originally Posted by whatnext

Yes, especially considering it is not unsual for the middle class in India to have domestic help, given the huge labour pool and low wages.

I assume our friend thinks all folks driving taxis or working hard as hospital orderlies etc got into Canada with large sums of cash.

The survey found that immigrants to British Columbia have the highest average amount of savings at $86,270, while those settling in Alberta have the lowest at $28,784.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ticle23970582/

86k in the bank on average is pretty decent. And yeah even if you bring in cash you start from the bottom. You've never heard the story of the doctor whose driving a taxi? Or the janitor whose a nuclear physicist?

• Video Link

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by misher

I was referring to a recent city council meeting where I forget her name made a motion to cancel the Broadway plan and Stewart got up and told Council that if they cancel this plan the government will likely withdraw funding for the project because the city can't get its affairs in order.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ticle23970582/

86k in the bank on average is pretty decent. And yeah even if you bring in cash you start from the bottom. You've never heard the story of the doctor whose driving a taxi?

That's still a hyperbole. The Broadway subway AND plan have majority support on council.

Ditto average income. I trust that you don't really think that TBBT is reflective of reality? What's likely happening is that most BC immigrants come in with the same savings as Alberta, but there's a small, wealthy minority of millionaires and near-millionaires that drives the average up. "Most immigrants" is a serious leap of logic that reinforces the "evil rich foreigner" trope you despise.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's still a hyperbole. The Broadway subway AND plan have majority support on council.

Ditto average income. I trust that you don't really think that TBBT is reflective of reality? What's likely happening is that most BC immigrants come in with the same savings as Alberta, but there's a small, wealthy minority of millionaires and near-millionaires that drives the average up. "Most immigrants" is a serious leap of logic that reinforces the "evil rich foreigner" trope you despise.

Definitely hate the "evil rich criminal money laundering non tax paying foreigner" stereotype. But I do believe that many immigrants come here with money. Gaining PR is an expensive process. If you have family sponsoring you then it can be less.

Some come in through work permits or the skilled worker category. But if your an average joe with no relations here it will cost you a bundle to get PR.

Remember that even the flight here is 1-2k easy. Thats 3-6 months of the average salary in India or China. To us the equivalent is about 20k just for the flight. And these nations have much more wealth concentrated at the top so unless your at the top its very unlikely you can afford the cost.
The poor from these nations aren't the ones coming here. Its usually the ones with family wealth or who are very successful personally.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Money laundering and tax evasion are definitely a thing, as is sponsoring - I've heard enough stories from family members working in social service. Let's not act like there aren't a lot of blue and white collar immigrants here though.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Money laundering and tax evasion are definitely a thing, as is sponsoring - I've heard enough stories from family members working in social service. Let's not act like there aren't a lot of blue and white collar immigrants here though.

Definitely. But while they may not seem "rich" to us my point was that back home they are seen as the upper crust. Just like how average Canadians go to third world nations as tourists for vacation because everything is much cheaper, to the people from these nations only the rich can afford to be an average person here.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by misher

Uh most immigrants do arrive with a silver spoon in their mouth. Its very expensive to come here so only the top of most third world nations can do so. I still remember dating an Indian girl who I considered poor but who has a driver and a maid back home. Even our refugees tend to be the upper crust of their respective nations.

refugees are usually people with money. Many have had to pay $$ to even get to a camp. Think about it among us, if something happened, how many of us would have the money to make our way to say a camp in Saskatchewan? or at the other end of Canada without credit cards and jus rely on cash, many of us would just be stuck here cause we don't have the funds. The refugees that make it here are often the ones who had the money back in wherever they left. I know a few refugees and some in our building, the ones I know all have University degrees and had pretty good lives before the crap happened.

As for immigrants to qualify you need money, I believe its enough money to sustain yourself for up to 6 months. Of the immigrants I know of most of them arrived with a lot of money, if you sell a condo in a city where they cost more than here you can arrive well off and to them Vancouver housing prices are pretty reasonable and what they are used to.

[GMasterAres]

I don't actually understand how anyone here is arguing the point that because someone is "rich" in a third world country, that it makes any difference to their standing here in Canada. Like just because they are rich in Zimbabwe that they should be denied access to Canada or that we shouldn't treat them as human beings first an foremost.

It is NOT expensive to immigrate to Canada. A solo person wanting to immigrate to Canada needs to just basically have proof they have $12,500 in cash and pay about $500 or so not including any legal costs. It goes up from there for more people coming but not drastically. Family of 7 is about $33,000 in combined cash and the fees associated with PR applications and other legal processing.

Sure a lot of people in third world countries probably would dream about earning that amount of cash in their entire lifetime, but again I don't see how that matters. If someone was "rich" enough in China to come up with $12,500 cash working their behind off for a number of years, then come to Canada, how far would that get them? They'd bloody be living on the streets of East Vancouver with that amount of cash. That's not even the poverty line here!

So yes there are ultra wealthy people that immigrate to Canada, but the vast majority of people I am absolutely certain are not any better off or worse off than the average Canadian born by pure absolute luck in a country where they don't have to carry water in a bucket on their head for 1km to drink tonight.

I think some people need a little bit of perspective when it comes to our place in the world. More than 1/3rd of the world (2.5 billion) people live on $2 a day. Our low income citizens in Canada would be considered rich in more than 50% of the rest of this planet.

So quite frankly I don't really care how much money someone earns when they want to come to this country, I care about what they are going to contribute culturally, socially, and economically be they a billionaire or an average Joe and I think that's all anyone should care about. If they are going to live here and contribute, their kids are going to go to school, they are going to support the economy by buying things and going out, and they pay taxes, who cares what they make? If they are going to milk the system, work loop-holes, evade the tax system, and suck our resources without contributing in return, then that's what we should be annoyed with and want to stop. But again we need to keep some perspective here. There are plenty of born and raised Canadians that cheat on their taxes, lie about their income, and break the law. I'd actually venture a guess that the number of Canadians that do this greatly outnumbers the number of foreigners.

What does any of this have to do with housing though? Simple, I personally think we miss the actual drivers of higher costs in Metro Vancouver and that it isn't rich foreigners but rather government agencies (municipal, provincial, and federal) addicted to tax dollars and through policy, fees, and forced contributions during development add a lot of overhead to new housing starts, and people wanting to move here from elsewhere on the planet including other areas of Canada and us not building enough bloody houses for them. It takes 2-4 years to get a basic 120 unit townhouse complex in Surrey from start of planning to construction complete, and yet the city has 1250 people wanting to move here every month.

Is the answer to close the walls? No. The answer is to reduce government red-tape and build more units imho. Stop blaming people that want to come to this Country.

[misher]

Originally Posted by jhausner

I don't actually understand how anyone here is arguing the point that because someone is "rich" in a third world country, that it makes any difference to their standing here in Canada. Like just because they are rich in Zimbabwe that they should be denied access to Canada or that we shouldn't treat them as human beings first an foremost.

It is NOT expensive to immigrate to Canada. A solo person wanting to immigrate to Canada needs to just basically have proof they have $12,500 in cash and pay about $500 or so not including any legal costs. It goes up from there for more people coming but not drastically. Family of 7 is about $33,000 in combined cash and the fees associated with PR applications and other legal processing.

Sure a lot of people in third world countries probably would dream about earning that amount of cash in their entire lifetime, but again I don't see how that matters. If someone was "rich" enough in China to come up with $12,500 cash working their behind off for a number of years, then come to Canada, how far would that get them? They'd bloody be living on the streets of East Vancouver with that amount of cash. That's not even the poverty line here!

So yes there are ultra wealthy people that immigrate to Canada, but the vast majority of people I am absolutely certain are not any better off or worse off than the average Canadian born by pure absolute luck in a country where they don't have to carry water in a bucket on their head for 1km to drink tonight.

I think some people need a little bit of perspective when it comes to our place in the world. More than 1/3rd of the world (2.5 billion) people live on $2 a day. Our low income citizens in Canada would be considered rich in more than 50% of the rest of this planet.

So quite frankly I don't really care how much money someone earns when they want to come to this country, I care about what they are going to contribute culturally, socially, and economically be they a billionaire or an average Joe and I think that's all anyone should care about. If they are going to live here and contribute, their kids are going to go to school, they are going to support the economy by buying things and going out, and they pay taxes, who cares what they make? If they are going to milk the system, work loop-holes, evade the tax system, and suck our resources without contributing in return, then that's what we should be annoyed with and want to stop. But again we need to keep some perspective here. There are plenty of born and raised Canadians that cheat on their taxes, lie about their income, and break the law. I'd actually venture a guess that the number of Canadians that do this greatly outnumbers the number of foreigners.

What does any of this have to do with housing though? Simple, I personally think we miss the actual drivers of higher costs in Metro Vancouver and that it isn't rich foreigners but rather government agencies (municipal, provincial, and federal) addicted to tax dollars and through policy, fees, and forced contributions during development add a lot of overhead to new housing starts, and people wanting to move here from elsewhere on the planet including other areas of Canada and us not building enough bloody houses for them. It takes 2-4 years to get a basic 120 unit townhouse complex in Surrey from start of planning to construction complete, and yet the city has 1250 people wanting to move here every month.

Is the answer to close the walls? No. The answer is to reduce government red-tape and build more units imho. Stop blaming people that want to come to this Country.

Going back to the original point we were just discussing how immigrants arrive with a "silver spoon". The point was that they are used to being wealthy not that they are wealthy here. Was never arguing for worse/better treatment, if anything I'd prefer we bring in rich immigrants as they are less likely to be a burden on our system.

And thats the cash you need but also its not like you can just come here pay and be a Canadian. There are very strict categories. Just like you can't just pay the material costs and get a home.

I think the three main factors for housing are immigration, low interest rates, and government. We can't change the two so were stuck with forcing the third to move.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by jhausner

What does any of this have to do with housing though? Simple, I personally think we miss the actual drivers of higher costs in Metro Vancouver and that it isn't rich foreigners but rather government agencies (municipal, provincial, and federal) addicted to tax dollars and through policy, fees, and forced contributions during development add a lot of overhead to new housing starts, and people wanting to move here from elsewhere on the planet including other areas of Canada and us not building enough bloody houses for them. It takes 2-4 years to get a basic 120 unit townhouse complex in Surrey from start of planning to construction complete, and yet the city has 1250 people wanting to move here every month.

Right, but there's no point in doubling and tripling supply if it's going to get prebought and flipped and reflipped, keeping prices high no matter how much we build. For our sake and the immigrants', we needed to solve that variable as well - and we did.

[dreambrother808]

The status quo is untenable and I think that someone like Trudeau really doesn't understand what the average person is going through. If you've always been wealthy and never lived paycheque to paycheque, and also if you've always been a homeowner throughout this crisis, you frankly don't understand how demoralizing it is. That's why there is no sense of urgency in government. How many of them are actually living with the consequences?

He gets to be a worldwide poster child for openness and tolerance while ignoring the real world consequences for poor and middle class Canadians. Either cut back on visas and immigration and/or fund massive public housing projects immediately. We can't keep going forward doing nothing differently while hoping that this problem will magically solve itself.

[SpongeG]

is Trudeau wealthy though?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

is Trudeau wealthy though?

He comes from multigenerational wealth. His father was PM. The Sinclair Centre here is named after his mother’s family.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

is Trudeau wealthy though?

Is this a serious question ?