HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > Halifax > Transportation & Infrastructure


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 2:53 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 9,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
You're up late, Mark.

I do not like roundabouts generally and find the ones at Uteck poorly designed for reasons you cite. The ones at Cunard and at North Park are better though, and work OK because they are simply designed better. The one problem they all have in the city, though, is pedestrian access. You are so busy looking for other vehicles trying to run into you that your attention is distracted from the multiple crosswalks in every entry/exit leg. They are extremely hazardous for pedestrians and IMO the crosswalks should not be located inside the roundabout itself as they are in these but rather be some distance away on the actual streets themselves.

A big part of the problem is that HRM Planning is populated by a large number of young, inexperienced planners who have had the idea drilled into their heads at school that cars are bad and must be eliminated/discouraged as much as possible, along with the corollary that roundabouts are good for discouraging car use because they are slow and create congestion. Hence the sentiment among some that more roundabouts are always the solution to whatever traffic problem exists. They are not.
Such is my schedule sometimes...

I agree with your comments about Uteck vs the ones by the Commons, and regarding crosswalk location. Those are valid concerns and it troubles me a little that HRM planning/traffic people don't seem to be paying attention, as they just seem to be churning out the same design features time and again.

I personally don't mind roundabouts so much, when they are designed well and are applied appropriately to their traffic situation. The aspect of traversing one can actually be fun if you're somebody who enjoys the challenge of accelerating, braking, and tight turns (I do ). However I'm also a firm believer that road infrastructure should be designed such that it's easy to understand at a quick glance for anybody, not just those familiar with the area. This is why I bristle a little when reading the timid driver comments... if infrastructure is designed well, nobody will be timid because they will understand exactly what they have to do to get through it without having to call their insurance company...

I have to say, though, that I don't think roundabouts are part of a nefarious plot to rid the roads of cars. I honestly think that traffic planners are well-intentioned, and that there are sound reasons to install them, such as legacy costs associated with maintaining lighted intersections - roundabouts take up a little more land, but they are only pavement and have no extra costs associated with maintenance - just pavement, painted lines, and plowing requirements... but roundabouts do not have electrical/electronic equipment to manage (which also gives them the advantage during power failures). I'm sure there is somebody here with in-depth knowledge that could prove me wrong, if I am, so feel free to correct me if that's the case.

They are also superior in light traffic situations, where normally some cars would be sitting, waiting for the light to change with little to no traffic coming the other way. The roundabout lets you judge the traffic coming at you and go as soon as it's reasonable to do so.

On the other hand, I really don't think they are the best plan for heavy traffic areas, such as the one being discussed in this thread.

Sorry, I'm rambling again...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 3:32 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by toones View Post
Anyone know what the brown shape in the render is meant to represent?
I believe there is something under construction there right now. It may be part of the tour bus depot?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 4:05 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I think you're missing the point in that there is no gap when the main traffic flow is coming from one place and the roundabout is the choking point.
...

FWIW, if you do what you describe in some sections of the Larry Uteck roundabouts, you can create the situation I described where you may run directly into a car exiting from the inside lane.
I would counter that for every two or three cars entering, there are also two or three cars exiting. It's not just people driving around in endless circles like a caravan

There are always gaps - not big ones but if no one takes them because they think the circle has to be virtually empty on their left before proceeding, that is a driver problem not a design problem IMO. Even then, if no one takes the gaps, more cars are exiting and the gaps get bigger. So someone can take those gaps.

I don't think it's implicit in the design that they will be gridlocked. BUT - as I've said before, I guess we have to design for the reality and not in hopes that people won't be hesitant about taking every opportunity to get in.

I use the Larry Uteck ones frequently and I'm well are that you have to watch for people switching lanes to the right as you enter and so far I've never had so much as a near miss. It helps when people use their #$#% signals.

In the end, I agree with other ideas offered here about two-lane overpasses going in both directions. That might actually make a roundabout more viable by taking most of the Bedford Highway-Barrington/Bridge traffic out of it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 4:23 PM
Empire's Avatar
Empire Empire is offline
Salty Town
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halifax
Posts: 2,182
Below are links to roundabouts I’ve been on in France and Lisbon (1&2). Maybe we really need to look at some roundabouts that work elsewhere for design reference?
Source - google maps

(Link 1) Elevated roundabout on A1 Autoroute north of Paris
Plan https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pa...14!4d2.3522219

Street Level https://www.google.com/maps/@50.3935...7i16384!8i8192

(Link 2) The Marquês de Pomba monument in Lisbon is an example of utilizing the dead space in the centre of a roundabout and is common of many roundabouts in Europe. We could put a war memorial monument in the centre of the small roundabout across from the Armoury. This is a roundabout within a roundabout.
Plan https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7253.../data=!3m1!1e3

Street Level https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7248...7i16384!8i8192

(Link 3) I was not at this roundabout but I thought the overpass feature was interesting.
Plan https://www.google.com/maps/place/Li...4!4d-9.1393366

Street Level https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7376...7i16384!8i8192
__________________
Salty Town
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 4:48 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 124
These are intriguing. I'm imagining an inverse of the raised roundabout. Keep the roundabout under most of the traffic. (To be clear this is a quick brainstorm that may make no sense whatsoever on inspection.)

Have two-lane overpasses for Bedford Highway to Barrington/Bridge and back. Those are off to the side and don't interfere with the roundabout or the next suggestion:

Also have (an) overpasse(s) over the roundabout for Bedford Highway / Joseph Howe to Lady Hammond / Kempt.

The roundabout now mostly handles traffic to / from Windsor - it still needs paths to/from Barrington / Bridge, Lady Hammond / Kempt and Bedford Highway but it won't be as clogged - and the low volume of traffic to and from Bayne / Africville.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire View Post
Below are links to roundabouts I’ve been on in France and Lisbon (1&2). Maybe we really need to look at some roundabouts that work elsewhere for design reference?
Source - google maps

(Link 1) Elevated roundabout on A1 Autoroute north of Paris
Plan https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pa...14!4d2.3522219

Street Level https://www.google.com/maps/@50.3935...7i16384!8i8192

(Link 2) The Marquês de Pomba monument in Lisbon is an example of utilizing the dead space in the centre of a roundabout and is common of many roundabouts in Europe. We could put a war memorial monument in the centre of the small roundabout across from the Armoury. This is a roundabout within a roundabout.
Plan https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7253.../data=!3m1!1e3

Street Level https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7248...7i16384!8i8192

(Link 3) I was not at this roundabout but I thought the overpass feature was interesting.
Plan https://www.google.com/maps/place/Li...4!4d-9.1393366

Street Level https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7376...7i16384!8i8192
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 6:54 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 9,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-Axed View Post
I would counter that for every two or three cars entering, there are also two or three cars exiting. It's not just people driving around in endless circles like a caravan

There are always gaps - not big ones but if no one takes them because they think the circle has to be virtually empty on their left before proceeding, that is a driver problem not a design problem IMO. Even then, if no one takes the gaps, more cars are exiting and the gaps get bigger. So someone can take those gaps.

I don't think it's implicit in the design that they will be gridlocked. BUT - as I've said before, I guess we have to design for the reality and not in hopes that people won't be hesitant about taking every opportunity to get in.

I use the Larry Uteck ones frequently and I'm well are that you have to watch for people switching lanes to the right as you enter and so far I've never had so much as a near miss. It helps when people use their #$#% signals.

In the end, I agree with other ideas offered here about two-lane overpasses going in both directions. That might actually make a roundabout more viable by taking most of the Bedford Highway-Barrington/Bridge traffic out of it.
I don't want to drag this out. It was all the traffic coming from Quinpool and exiting after Chebucto, so no timidness, just no gaps. However, I think this one point has had too much emphasis on it.

Obviously you have valid points and I hope I didn't sound too negative or adversarial, as that wasn't my intention...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 7:42 PM
Keith P.'s Avatar
Keith P. Keith P. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I don't want to drag this out. It was all the traffic coming from Quinpool and exiting after Chebucto, so no timidness, just no gaps. However, I think this one point has had too much emphasis on it.

Obviously you have valid points and I hope I didn't sound too negative or adversarial, as that wasn't my intention...
I don't think he gets it. Right now, at 4:30PM on a Friday, traffic will be heavy wanting to get on the MacKay. So whatever leg of the roundabout needs to be used to get there will be bumper to bumper. It would likely degenerate quickly into the dreaded one on one, or people who have been forced to wait too long would simply ignore the "yield to vehicles already in the roundabout" rule and push their way through. Mayhem ensues.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 8:36 PM
atbw atbw is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
I don't think he gets it. Right now, at 4:30PM on a Friday, traffic will be heavy wanting to get on the MacKay. So whatever leg of the roundabout needs to be used to get there will be bumper to bumper. It would likely degenerate quickly into the dreaded one on one, or people who have been forced to wait too long would simply ignore the "yield to vehicles already in the roundabout" rule and push their way through. Mayhem ensues.
What the redesign resolves is the ton of traffic coming Clayton Park and Larry Uteck via Bedford Highway. That traffic passes freely over the overpass.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 8:37 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 124
I get it. My original comment included concerns about some of the merge points in design A. I have said at least three times now that you guys are probably right that, in practice, it won't work as well as it might in theory.

I just happen to think that's at least in part because drivers wait for unnecessarily large gaps and not just because roundabouts inherently can't handle high traffic situations - they work all over the world for drivers who are used to them. I'm not trying to force anyone to agree with me - just explaining why I believe it.

In the end I still like some of the issues that Design A addresses that Design B doesn't address at all, which was the whole point of my first post on the topic - to talk about the two options presented. Design B flat out sucks.

Last edited by Half-Axed; Nov 5, 2021 at 8:58 PM. Reason: typos
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 8:43 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by atbw View Post
What the redesign resolves is the ton of traffic coming Clayton Park and Larry Uteck via Bedford Highway. That traffic passes freely over the overpass.
I thought that on first glance, but unfortunately the design as presented only has an overpass going in the other direction.

Inbound traffic from the Bedford Highway to the Bridge / Barrington would still have to use the roundabout - which is why the others are probably right that it will be too slow.

No idea why they wouldn't propose a bidirectional overpass.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2021, 9:36 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 9,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire View Post
Below are links to roundabouts I’ve been on in France and Lisbon (1&2). Maybe we really need to look at some roundabouts that work elsewhere for design reference?
Source - google maps

(Link 1) Elevated roundabout on A1 Autoroute north of Paris
Plan https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pa...14!4d2.3522219

Street Level https://www.google.com/maps/@50.3935...7i16384!8i8192

(Link 2) The Marquês de Pomba monument in Lisbon is an example of utilizing the dead space in the centre of a roundabout and is common of many roundabouts in Europe. We could put a war memorial monument in the centre of the small roundabout across from the Armoury. This is a roundabout within a roundabout.
Plan https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7253.../data=!3m1!1e3

Street Level https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7248...7i16384!8i8192

(Link 3) I was not at this roundabout but I thought the overpass feature was interesting.
Plan https://www.google.com/maps/place/Li...4!4d-9.1393366

Street Level https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7376...7i16384!8i8192
1 and 3 are interesting, but I'm not sure of the advantage of having to build two overpasses just to accommodate a roundabout, when a single overpass with an intersection seems like it would do the trick. Of course I don't know how the traffic flows there, so maybe its necessary?

2 has operating traffic signals at the entrance to the roundabout, so isn't this just a lighted intersection with a circle in the middle?

Interesting examples, though. It strikes me how much more attractive these roadways seem to be compared to our more utilitarian examples.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 2:10 AM
Empire's Avatar
Empire Empire is offline
Salty Town
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halifax
Posts: 2,182
The trio of roundabouts at Larry Uteck and the Bi-Hi warrants some discussion but as a precursor look at the landscaping pattern of the the three roundabouts.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.69960.../data=!3m1!1e3
__________________
Salty Town
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 3:32 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 9,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire View Post
The trio of roundabouts at Larry Uteck and the Bi-Hi warrants some discussion but as a precursor look at the landscaping pattern of the the three roundabouts.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.69960.../data=!3m1!1e3
One question I have is why is all the landscaping in the middle raised such that you can't see the traffic on the other side? On tight circles like that I would prefer to be able to see what other vehicles are in the roundabout. Did they install them to be like blinders so we don't become too frightened?

The examples you gave earlier are much larger circles so I don't think it would be an issue regardless. They are much more attractively landscaped, or decorated as the case may be.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 4:14 AM
Dmajackson's Avatar
Dmajackson Dmajackson is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: B3K Halifax, NS
Posts: 9,841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-Axed View Post
I thought that on first glance, but unfortunately the design as presented only has an overpass going in the other direction.

Inbound traffic from the Bedford Highway to the Bridge / Barrington would still have to use the roundabout - which is why the others are probably right that it will be too slow.

No idea why they wouldn't propose a bidirectional overpass.
The overpass is bidirectional. In the video at 5:57 it shows the traffic movement between Bfd Hwy and MacKay Bridge and both directions use the overpass. The left lane of Bd Hwy inbound goes onto the overpass and becomes what is currently the Barrington St lane on the bridge approach.

My line of thinking for this project is the limited area included for redesign doesn't address either issue I see everyday on my commute through during the PM peak. First the lineup to get from the MacKay to Bfd Hwy and Joe Howe is two lanes and often backed up onto the bridge. This line has no traffic lights or anything to stop its flow within the project area. The issue is the tight Joe Howe ramp and the traffic lights at Bayview. This project won't help this at all. Second is my daily movement from Joe Howe to MacKay. Both designs still require the Joe Howe ramp to yield and switch lanes with traffic coming off Bfd Hwy. Granted the amount of traffic will be lower thanks to the overpass but it will still be one-for-one merge type of deal which means traffic will still queue onto Joe Howe heavily. If it wasn't for the rail line under the ramp it would be as easy as having the Bfd Hwy lane dip under Joe Howe to solve this issue.

Halifax needs to realize that by not including any direct fixes for Joe Howe they are not addressing a key issue. A smooth transition from Joe Howe to MacKay Bridge in both directions would encourage people to use that path when travelling crosstown from Highway 102 or Armdale to Dartmouth. This would reduce congestion on Bayers/Connaught and especially on Chebucto/North/MacDonald Bridge.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 4:16 AM
Empire's Avatar
Empire Empire is offline
Salty Town
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halifax
Posts: 2,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
One question I have is why is all the landscaping in the middle raised such that you can't see the traffic on the other side? On tight circles like that I would prefer to be able to see what other vehicles are in the roundabout. Did they install them to be like blinders so we don't become too frightened?

The examples you gave earlier are much larger circles so I don't think it would be an issue regardless. They are much more attractively landscaped, or decorated as the case may be.
Is a roundabout such as the one shown below designed to improve traffic flow? Is there that much traffic on Larry Uteck or is it a measure to eliminate the ongoing expense of controlled stoplights?

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.70065.../data=!3m1!1e3
__________________
Salty Town
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 4:37 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 9,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire View Post
Is a roundabout such as the one shown below designed to improve traffic flow? Is there that much traffic on Larry Uteck or is it a measure to eliminate the ongoing expense of controlled stoplights?

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.70065.../data=!3m1!1e3
You tell me.

I don't have data or traffic expertise, but to me it appears that most of the traffic flows between Larry U, the 102 and the extension of Larry U to Kearney Lake.

The traffic to Nine Mile and Starboard is relatively small, so a lighted intersection would probably work there without any significant impediment to traffic flow.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if it's a legit question, though, so I'll leave it at that. These long drawn-out 'debates' over insignificant details wear me out...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 5:00 AM
Nouvellecosse's Avatar
Nouvellecosse Nouvellecosse is offline
Volatile Pacivist
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 10,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
One question I have is why is all the landscaping in the middle raised such that you can't see the traffic on the other side? On tight circles like that I would prefer to be able to see what other vehicles are in the roundabout. Did they install them to be like blinders so we don't become too frightened?

The examples you gave earlier are much larger circles so I don't think it would be an issue regardless. They are much more attractively landscaped, or decorated as the case may be.
They do design them to minimize distractions from things that aren't immediately relevant which could confuse people. They want people just looking immediately left for an opening to merge rather than all over the place.
__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
Don't ask people not to debate a topic. Just stop making debatable assertions. Problem solved.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 8:56 AM
atbw atbw is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-Axed View Post
I thought that on first glance, but unfortunately the design as presented only has an overpass going in the other direction.

Inbound traffic from the Bedford Highway to the Bridge / Barrington would still have to use the roundabout - which is why the others are probably right that it will be too slow.

No idea why they wouldn't propose a bidirectional overpass.
Both options have two lanes inbound from the bridge and one lane outbound towards the bridge. Look close, there’s two dotted white lines, and a yellow line.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 10:04 AM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 124
My mistake. Thanks for the clarification. It’s better than I thought and certainly takes some pressure off the roundabout.

I agree that Joseph Howe is an issue, and that there will always be backup outbound unless Bayview gets addressed. Probably the Mount and Flamingo too. Seton will likely be an issue in the future too. Roundabouts for all four spots!

Last edited by Half-Axed; Nov 6, 2021 at 10:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 3:43 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 9,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
They do design them to minimize distractions from things that aren't immediately relevant which could confuse people. They want people just looking immediately left for an opening to merge rather than all over the place.
Makes sense. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > Halifax > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:45 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.