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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2016, 8:28 PM
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The Tims in my neighbourhood in Kingston has a drive thru. It is in the centre of an urban neighbourhood and on a major commuter route at the same time. The drive thru frequently backs up onto the street at rush hour.

The store management always prioritizes drive thru customers--there's always 3 staff reserved for the drive thru orders while the front typically only gets 1--so the people who actually live in the neighbourhood have to wait forever for their orders while the drive thru commuters are in and out quickly.

Needless to say, I don't go there anymore.

Drive thrus should not be allowed in urban neighbourhoods.
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2016, 11:36 PM
zzptichka zzptichka is offline
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Proposed Westboro drive-thru café 'completely inappropriate,' says Leiper
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...boro-1.3499129
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 2:49 AM
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
Proposed Westboro drive-thru café 'completely inappropriate,' says Leiper
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...boro-1.3499129
Proposed Westboro drive-thru café 'completely inappropriate,' says Leiper
Developer wants to convert heritage gas station into high-end coffee shop, drawing concerns from councillor

By Trevor Pritchard, CBC News Posted: Mar 20, 2016 6:00 AM ET Last Updated: Mar 20, 2016 4:19 PM ET


An Ottawa city councillor says he's preparing to fight a proposal to build a drive-thru coffee shop on the site of a heritage-designated Westboro gas station.

Kitchissippi Coun. Jeff Leiper told CBC Ottawa the proposed addition by developer Main and Main to the former Champlain Oil gas station is "completely inappropriate," and would make the neighbourhood significantly less walkable.

"The City of Ottawa has an official plan that says drive-thrus don't belong on traditional main streets. There's a reason for that," Leiper said Saturday.

"The impact in terms of greenhouse gases, idling cars, cars that are driving back and forth over a sidewalk in order to get to the drive-thru window — all of that makes for a much less-friendly pedestrian environment."

Built in 1934, the gas station at Richmond Road and Island Park Drive was described in a 2015 city report that advocated for its heritage status as "an interesting example" of pre-Second World War design.

"The service station at 70 Richmond is a good example of 1930s gas station architecture during the boom in the private ownership of automobiles, and one of the few that remain in Ottawa," the report said.

"Its location along Richmond Road would have played an integral part in the connecting Ottawa with the neighbouring communities to the west."

Council unanimously passed the motion designating the currently-vacant station a heritage property in September 2015.

According to documents posted on Leiper's website, Main and Main has applied for a zoning bylaw amendment to build a 65-square-metre addition and "convert the existing building into a restaurant."

Vehicles would access the drive-thru lane on Richmond Road, and would exit on Island Park Drive, according to Main and Main's planning rationale.

"In converting the building from an automotive use into a restaurant, it advances the site towards a land use more in line with the objectives of the City of Ottawa's traditional main streets policy," the document says.

Leiper told CBC his issue isn't with the heritage element, calling the proposed high-end coffee shop a "sensitive addition" that would preserve the gas station's look and feel.

Rather, it's the impact on the neighbourhood he's concerned about.

"Island Park is a gong show at the best of times during [the morning commute], when people are most likely to visit a drive-thru coffee shop," Leiper said.

Gord Johnson, who has lived near Richmond Road and Island Park Drive for eight years, echoed the councillor's worries.

"I have seen so many close calls when traffic is trying to beat the light. You add another dynamic to that, like a drive-thru — it's a disaster. There's going to be an accident."

Leiper said he's planning to consult with residents before the matter is brought before the city's planning committee in June.

Main and Main could not be reached for comment Saturday afternoon.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...-1.3499129#gas
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 4:12 AM
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This situation is making my laugh pretty hard. The Westboro NIMBY Squad have fought so hard to preserve the precious rarefied air 40-90 feet above the ground at this intersection, now the only thing that a developer can make money on here is an effing Timmy's.
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 4:17 AM
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Community concerns can be rectified immediately by simply ditching the drive-thru and making the Tims walk-in only. It can still have parking.
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Last edited by 1overcosc; Mar 21, 2016 at 4:30 AM.
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 5:32 PM
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 6:48 PM
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This situation is making my laugh pretty hard. The Westboro NIMBY Squad have fought so hard to preserve the precious rarefied air 40-90 feet above the ground at this intersection, now the only thing that a developer can make money on here is an effing Timmy's.
Crazy eh... I guess it's still zoned for a used car lot so someone should try and make a go of one of those until somebody comes along with a Heritage-friendly, NIMBY-free proposal

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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
Community concerns can be rectified immediately by simply ditching the drive-thru and making the Tims walk-in only. It can still have parking.
Problem is that intersection is not really on a main pedestrian trail... kind of in the dead-zone between Westboro and West Wellington.
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 5:16 AM
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Problem is that intersection is not really on a main pedestrian trail... kind of in the dead-zone between Westboro and West Wellington.
Lots of people in the area. People go nuts for Tims, they'll walk.

Plus there's no reason why commuters can't.. uh, you know, park at the Tims and walk in instead of driving thru.

As totalitarian as it sounds I would really love it if governments banned all drive-thrus tomorrow. They're horrible things.
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 11:54 AM
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Lots of people in the area. People go nuts for Tims, they'll walk.
Very possible... but point being it's not on a natural "commuter" path (i.e. people walking to transitway, to work, etc.) It would have to be a destination in and of itself... but as you say.. People go nuts for Tims.

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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
Plus there's no reason why commuters can't.. uh, you know, park at the Tims and walk in instead of driving thru.
Of course not... but that would make the lineup of cars turning into the property even worse and people wait for someone to back out of one of the (very limited) spaces.

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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
As totalitarian as it sounds I would really love it if governments banned all drive-thrus tomorrow. They're horrible things.
I can't find the quote, but I'm sure I read somewhere that the "entrance" would be on Richmond, with the "exit" onto Island Park with no left turn.... This is *not* a natural traffic flow, and would only result in more congestion being created as drivers bend and twist their way into there....

Gawd... I sound like a NIMBY
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 3:41 PM
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Starbucks has a pretty good example of a converted historic garage turned coffee shop in Los Angeles. Done properly I think this would be a cool feature for the neighborhood.

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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 4:28 PM
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Starbucks has a pretty good example of a converted historic garage turned coffee shop in Los Angeles. Done properly I think this would be a cool feature for the neighborhood.
Aesthetics and "cool feature" aside... the issue most are concerned with is that it cannot be "done properly". That intersection is simply not conducive to a drive through restaurant.... especially one as busy as Tim's usually are.

I go through that intersection constantly... it is messy, busy and congested at the best of times.... throw in a whack of people turning left into Tims, and lining up onto the street during the morning rush hour... and you have a full recipe for disaster.

Bad, bad idea.
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 4:29 PM
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I agree with the anti-drive-thru sentiment that everyone else has mentioned. But, where does it say they are specifically putting a Tim Horton's here?

The Development Application description says:

Quote:
the proposal is to retain the existing 105sq.m heritage structure for use as a restaurant, with 65 sq.m addition. The proposal includes a patio, landscaping improvements, and a drive-through lane at the rear of the building.
And the Planning Rationale says:

Quote:
The architectural program for 70 Richmond includes revitalizing and repurposing the
quaint cottage style gas station (circa 1934) into an upscale coffee house.
I wouldn't exactly categorize Tim Horton's as an "upscale coffee house"... With that said, I don't know that I've ever seen an upscale coffee house with a drive-thru window.
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 6:25 PM
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Some Starbucks have drive-thru as well but this seems like a Tim Horton's just looking at the plan.
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 6:27 PM
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I agree with the anti-drive-thru sentiment that everyone else has mentioned. But, where does it say they are specifically putting a Tim Horton's here?

The Development Application description says:



And the Planning Rationale says:



I wouldn't exactly categorize Tim Horton's as an "upscale coffee house"... With that said, I don't know that I've ever seen an upscale coffee house with a drive-thru window.
Agreed..you can't zone based on brand name. The City of Kingston tried to do it on a project I was involved in but they didn't get too far.

Today's Tim's could be tomorrow's Robins Donuts.

Having said all of this, I agree with many posters that a Tim's or Starbucks d/t site there would not be good. It sounds as though it would be most condusive to head EB along Richmond pick up your over priced caffeine and then only exit SB on to Island Park Drive. That cuts off a lot of turning movements and I would think would put many people off from using the d/t.

A cafe or small restaurant w/o the d/t would be the best option. I'm sure there is going to be a lot of hand wringing on this before the dust settles.

The owners have hired a consultant who will do their best to see this through to the finish line.
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2016, 11:40 PM
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This is how important properties end up sitting vacant and fenced off for years

David Reevely, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: March 23, 2016 | Last Updated: March 23, 2016 6:14 PM EDT


Having protected an old gas station on Richmond Road from demolition by giving it a heritage designation, city council will probably also stop the building from being converted into a drive-thru.

To make anything great of this prominent piece of property will cost money, and the combination of city rules and heritage restrictions makes most things that might make that money back practically impossible. Toronto developer Main and Main bought the land at Richmond and Island Park Drive a couple of years ago. It is zoned for four-storey buildings already and might have been rezoned pretty easily for twice that.

“That’s a very attractive corner that deserves worthy, high-end development,” says Barrhaven Coun. Jan Harder, who chairs city council’s planning committee.

The problem: It already has something on it. A 1930s gas station, one of the first in Ottawa, from just after gasoline stopped being something you bought from a store and carried off with you in a big can. Part of the Trudeau family’s auto-service empire, once upon a time.

Last summer, Harder’s planning committee and then city council voted to give the old gas station a heritage designation. The building can be renovated or even moved, but it has to be kept basically intact. A building doesn’t have to be pretty to be historically important, but it’s nice if it is. And this one is as adorable as a gas station can be. With a red pitched roof and little chimney stacks, this is what a gas station would look like if it were run by hobbits. It is one of just a couple of buildings like it left in town.

Main and Main’s new proposal is to keep the building, put on an addition (they got an award-winning heritage architect to do the designs), and operate it as a restaurant. It would have a patio and bike racks, but also a drive-thru window.

Its spot on its lot, tucked away in a back corner and surrounded by asphalt, doesn’t meet modern standards, which put buildings up against sidewalks so pedestrians don’t have to cross parking lots just to go inside. That’s one feature of a “traditional main street” like Richmond, and something encouraged by the city’s design standards.

Those standards also forbid drive-thrus. The idea is that a main street is a place where you walk and the more cars that cross the sidewalk, the less pleasant walking will be. Traffic on the street is also a concern, but not the main one.

With only five parking spots in the plans, many times more customers are expected to pull up to a window than walk up to a counter, especially at busy times. The developer’s documents figure there’ll be 250 sidewalk crossings — half coming in, half going out — in the busiest morning hour alone. More than four a minute, and both Island Park and Richmond are busy then, so don’t expect those crossings to be smooth. There’ll be lots of cars stuck across the sidewalk while pedestrians wind around them.

Main and Main’s application argues that Richmond Road isn’t really a main street, at least not there. “There are no contiguous storefronts at the corner of Richmond Road and Island Park, and there is no on-street parking for a block in either direction from this site,” the developer’s paperwork says. “The essential condition at this corner is that of an intersection of two arterial streets.”

There are car lots and gas stations nearby, including next door and across the street. “With respect to the policy goal of preserving the character of Traditional Mainstreets, none of the purported character is here to preserve,” the application says. A restaurant, even with a drive-thru window, is closer to what the city supposedly wants than an actual gas station right? Moving it toward the street would churn up contaminated soil and be expensive.

In short, this is an exceptional case.

Haha, no, says Harder. The odds that the city will approve a drive-thru are “slim to nil.” (The city’s planners say they’ll give the proposal all the consideration it’s due and diplomatically stop there.) Harder says she’s keen to work with Main and Main to sort out a plan that works.

The city’s given itself — not to mention Main and Main — a big challenge. This is how important properties end up sitting vacant and fenced off for years.

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twitter.com/davidreevely

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-off-for-years
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  #56  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 11:36 PM
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Your letters for Tuesday, April 12: Heritage buildings, fundraising and the OAS

Ottawa Citizen Editorial Board
Published on: April 12, 2016 | Last Updated: April 12, 2016 6:00 AM EDT




Help business save our heritage

I read with great interest the proposal that has been submitted for the former Champlain Oil Gas Station at 70 Richmond Rd. City officials and the community helped save it from destruction, and the property was eventually designated heritage.

This 1934 former gas station incorporates a style of architecture and a history that we see slowly dwindling as more and more heritage buildings in the west end are demolished for new condos and infill developments.

The owner of this property is Main and Main of Toronto, and they recently proposed an alternate use for the structure. The proposal would see the existing building adapted into a coffee shop and restaurant with landscaping and a patio. The proposed development is designed by Malcolm Wildeboer of Vandenberg & Wildeboer Architects, experienced in heritage projects and architects for Alice’s Carp Village Café, which won an Ottawa Architectural Conservation Award in 2012-2014.

This new proposal for the old station has recently been met with resistance due to the fact a “drive-thru” option has been proposed, an element that many deem inappropriate due to traffic concerns at the intersection of Island Park Drive and Richmond Road.

It’s important to note that there will not be another nine-or-more-storey condo built at this site. A 12-storey condo by Mizrahi Developments, however, was approved for the corner opposite the Champlain site, with little mention of added traffic.

The proposed coffee shop preserves the original heritage structure with an addition that retains the 1930s’ architecture style of the old building, without the added traffic a condo would have presented.

The proposal of a business that retains the heritage nature of the property should not be dismissed. As a community we should work towards a solution with Main and Main.

The real root of the problem is the excessive amount of commuter traffic that clogs this intersection. Thousands of cars now use Island Park as a daily interprovincial commuter route, and there is an immediate need to address this growing problem. Just dismissing the idea of a coffee shop at one corner because “it’s already a bad intersection” ignores the issue of an intersection with no advance green lights, absent turning lanes, and growing, congested commuter traffic.

Only when those problems have been solved can we promote positive additions to our vibrant and evolving neighbourhood that will appeal to drivers, pedestrians and cyclists alike.

Andrew King, Ottawa

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/let...gs-fundraising
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2016, 7:14 AM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
Your letters for Tuesday, April 12: Heritage buildings, fundraising and the OAS

Ottawa Citizen Editorial Board
Published on: April 12, 2016 | Last Updated: April 12, 2016 6:00 AM EDT




Help business save our heritage

I read with great interest the proposal that has been submitted for the former Champlain Oil Gas Station at 70 Richmond Rd. City officials and the community helped save it from destruction, and the property was eventually designated heritage.

This 1934 former gas station incorporates a style of architecture and a history that we see slowly dwindling as more and more heritage buildings in the west end are demolished for new condos and infill developments.

The owner of this property is Main and Main of Toronto, and they recently proposed an alternate use for the structure. The proposal would see the existing building adapted into a coffee shop and restaurant with landscaping and a patio. The proposed development is designed by Malcolm Wildeboer of Vandenberg & Wildeboer Architects, experienced in heritage projects and architects for Alice’s Carp Village Café, which won an Ottawa Architectural Conservation Award in 2012-2014.

This new proposal for the old station has recently been met with resistance due to the fact a “drive-thru” option has been proposed, an element that many deem inappropriate due to traffic concerns at the intersection of Island Park Drive and Richmond Road.

It’s important to note that there will not be another nine-or-more-storey condo built at this site. A 12-storey condo by Mizrahi Developments, however, was approved for the corner opposite the Champlain site, with little mention of added traffic.

The proposed coffee shop preserves the original heritage structure with an addition that retains the 1930s’ architecture style of the old building, without the added traffic a condo would have presented.

The proposal of a business that retains the heritage nature of the property should not be dismissed. As a community we should work towards a solution with Main and Main.

The real root of the problem is the excessive amount of commuter traffic that clogs this intersection. Thousands of cars now use Island Park as a daily interprovincial commuter route, and there is an immediate need to address this growing problem. Just dismissing the idea of a coffee shop at one corner because “it’s already a bad intersection” ignores the issue of an intersection with no advance green lights, absent turning lanes, and growing, congested commuter traffic.

Only when those problems have been solved can we promote positive additions to our vibrant and evolving neighbourhood that will appeal to drivers, pedestrians and cyclists alike.

Andrew King, Ottawa

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/let...gs-fundraising
The anti-condo sentiment is getting cloying. If traffic is a concern, the number of parking spaces in a building can be reduced. However, we can't control how many cars use a drive-through and their impact. In walkable neighbourhoods, people will choose to do without cars. For creating happy and and successful neighbourhoods, you need more people who live there and support local businesses, and who don't drive because they live near enough. Ironically that is achieved by condos he derides.

Also, only in one case has an older/ interesting building been torn down for condos. It's always been an unnoticeable, modern one-storey building, parking or vacant lot. As for houses, some decent ones have been replaced with infill, but they're not heritage.

As for his last statement, drive-throughs aren't pleasant for pedestrians or cyclists. They're convenient for drivers, and make walking/cycling less safe and comfortable. Rule of thumb: the more you try to make drivers happy, the worse you.make it for other people (and eventually makes traffic worse).
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  #58  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2016, 4:55 PM
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Community groups oppose Richmond Road drive-thru
Property owner Main and Main wants to cover the 1930s heritage gas station into an 'upscale coffee house' drive-thru.

By: Lucy Scholey Metro Published on Wed Apr 20 2016


Ottawa community associations are joining the chorus of opposition to a drive-thru at the corner of Richmond Road and Island Park Drive.

The Federation of Community Associations (FCA), which represents eight community groups, has unanimously voted against converting the 1930s heritage gas station into an “upscale coffee house” drive-thru.

“This is not adding a service. It’s adding an injury,” said FCA president Gary Sealey.

The city recently granted 70 Richmond Rd. a heritage designation, which complicates what property owner Main and Main can do with the site.

Development firm Fotenn calls the drive-thru a “best-case scenario” for that building.

“Moreover the proposed development would restore commercial activity to a prominent street corner that is currently sitting vacant,” reads a planning rationale document prepared by Fotenn.

Apart from the drive-thru, the proposal includes a patio, five-car parking lot and repairs to the Tudor Revival stucco building.

Kitchissippi Coun. Jeff Leiper said that intersection is “already a gong show” for traffic.

“It would be an epic failure on city planning to approve a drive-thru on Richmond Road,” he said.

He said there should be an open house on the proposal within the next few weeks and a report will likely go before the planning committee in mid-June.

Metro reached out to Main and Main, but has yet to hear back.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/ottawa/...rive-thru.html
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  #59  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 1:16 AM
MountainView MountainView is offline
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Would everyone be okay if this was an "upscale coffee house" sans drive-thru? For me the biggest issue is the drive-thru aspect - which I am oppose to at this location.
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  #60  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 2:26 AM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Only issue for me is the drive through. Otherwise I'm okay with it.
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