James Baptist Church sold

[durandy]

tacking the facade of this church onto a skyscraper will look abominable.

Anyway, St Marks, this, the Philpott church, All Saints - none fit with the neighbourhood, none have inviting streetfronts, all are horribly expensive to retrofit. The only thing they have going for them is age and grandeur. Not even the churches are that interested in saving them. If it were up to me every pre 1950 school in the city would be designated and maybe one or two churches.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

All these churches have tremendous adaptive reuse value. As I mentioned before, inasmuch as they generally have a lot of kerb appeal, the guts are just as important. A church would be a great concert venue, bookstore/ library, restaurant/ café and so on.

This is a money issue as much as an engineering one. These are the sorts of instances where the city should step up and offer to help - forget football stadia.

[KDP]

Unfortunately, the city (in this case it would fall to the culture and tourism department) can't do much when they don't own the building. They DID do that to St. Mark's, and are in the process of transforming it into a wedding hall (and the like).

Unless, of course you meant for council to offer up some money to temporarily stabilize the structure while the owner comes up with a REAL plan.

[coalminecanary]

it all comes down to creativity

http://www.budgettravel.com/blog/new...g-mecca,11284/

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by KDP

Unfortunately, the city (in this case it would fall to the culture and tourism department) can't do much when they don't own the building. They DID do that to St. Mark's, and are in the process of transforming it into a wedding hall (and the like).

Unless, of course you meant for council to offer up some money to temporarily stabilize the structure while the owner comes up with a REAL plan.

It has taken the city almost 10 years to decide on what to do with St. Mark's, it cost nearly half million for the city to buy it, and will cost $1 -2 million to renovate (and St. Mark's is not nearly as structurally unstable at James St. Baptist). I suspect you fill find the city is less than eager to take on a similar exercise any time soon.

[lucasmascotto]

Paul Wilson: Demolition looms on Hamilton's History Row
CBC News Hamilton
By: Paul Wilson

Imagine you’re new in town, seeing this place for the first time. You step off the train at the old TH&B, stroll along Hunter, turn right onto James.

Talk about powerful first impressions. There, spread out before you, Hamilton’s Famous Five. James Street Baptist, 1878. St. Paul’s Presbyterian, 1854. Bank of Montreal, 1928. Sun Life, 1905. Pigott Building, 1928.

Religion and commerce. All that stone. All that history.

In a city where the past hasn’t always mattered, we knew these structures actually do. Council made sure all of them are designated and protected under the Ontario Heritage Act.

But now, a hard decision. Do we let the developer who bought James Street Baptist this year tear down most of it?

Stanton Renaissance of Toronto, and McCallum Sather Architects of Hamilton, brought a 129-page Heritage Impact Assessment with them to City Hall two weeks ago. The bottom line was a shock.

The report says the church can’t be saved, not economically anyway. The walls are crumbling, the foundations unstable. The developer wants to prop up the front facade, knock the rest of the church down and build something new in behind.

Meeting on Wednesday

Michael Adkins, who leads the city’s heritage permit review subcommittee, said this item was a big one – there would need to be another meeting. It’s tomorrow, Wed. Oct. 9. Normally such sessions are held in a compact committee room. Jason Farr, councillor for the downtown ward, saw to it that this one was moved to the council chambers.

Is it enough to just save that facade?

Downtown lawyer D. Robert Findlay doesn’t think so. He wrote a letter to The Spectator last week saying the owner knew he was buying a protected asset that would need repairs. “The list price of this property was drastically discounted to recognize there would be costs related to maintaining the building’s integrity,” he wrote.

James Street Baptist was on the city rolls with an assessment of nearly $1.5 million. It went on the market in August of last year at $1.1 million. It was reduced to $850,000, and sold in February for $610,000. The deal closed in June.

Developer Stanton Renaissance has been quiet here. It’s a new outfit and has not built anything yet. It does have plans for a 27-storey condo in the GTA called On The GO Mimico.

The firm’s president is Louie Santaguida. He was also president of an outfit called Terrasan Corp. A couple of years ago, two of its divisions filed for bankruptcy. Terrasan Environmental Solutions told creditors it owed $9.5 million and had assets of $27. Terrasan Metal Fabricators said it owed $5.5 million, with assets of $12.

Projects derailed

That bankruptcy caused problems for the city of Brantford, counting on Terrasan to clean the soil on a 20-hectare industrial site for housing, commercial, and parkland.

It was a game changer too for the Town of Blue Mountains, which had been working with Terrasan on a large development that was to include 200 residential units and a large commercial space.

Santaguida, in a quick interview yesterday on his way into a meeting, said the bankruptcy is “unrelated” to present operations.

Hamilton is new territory for him. “What drew me to the development was the historical value of the church,” he says.

And yet, now the proposal is to tear most of it down. “I probably should have had more details about the condition of it,” he says. “I fell in love with the history.”

Santaguida says some would now say the whole building should be knocked down. But he declares he’s ready to preserve the most important part of it. He says saving that facade could cost nearly $2 million.

No plan in place yet

There is no firm plan yet on what would be built behind it. The Stanton website refers to a 22 to 30 storey mixed-use building, but Santaguida says they are still considering options. “There’s no question that housing will be the prime component.”

This is the kind of scenario that makes Hamilton anxious – a request for a quick demolition of a heritage property, and no firm plan for what’s to come next.

It’s possible that the facade is all that we can save. And maybe Stanton Renaissance is the outfit that can put together something visionary at James and Jackson. The architectural firm it’s chosen, MSA – with heritage-minded Drew Hauser leading the project – is respected in this town.

But caution is warranted. Adkins of the heritage subcommittee favours an independent engineering report, paid for by the developer. That makes a lot of sense.

We cannot afford a repeat of what happened to the Lyric/Century Theatre. Out-of-town developers bought the Mary Street property at the fire-sale price of $148,000.

They said they would turn the 1913 Renaissance Revival vaudeville house into condos. Instead, they sat on it for a decade. They failed to maintain the building and a few years ago it collapsed. Downtown got one more weedy lot.

So now, for James Street Baptist Church, let us pray.

[markbarbera]

There is an interesting recount of the church's construction woes here.

Having read this, it is no wonder that it is in the state that it is in now. There is this sentiment that the current owner must have known the extent of the structure's instability ahead of time and should be responsible for correcting the structural flaws. It appears to me this building was doomed from the get go, and it is a miracle it hasn't already collapsed earlier in its 130-odd-years of existence. One sees a stone structure and immediately things it is solid and sound (guess we can blame the childhood tale of "The Three Little Pigs" for this mindset). Obviously such is not always the case.

It's a shame this history wasn't brought to their attention in advance of the purchase. Perhaps other potential buyers took the time to do some deep research on the building and realized its true state didn't match the price prior to signing on the dotted line. This reinforces the old adage 'buyer beware', even when the seller is a church congregation.

[SteelTown]

Heritage committee delayed a vote for two weeks. In the meantime the architects from McCallum Sather Architects will draw up a sketch for committee members to get an idea of the whole project.

[flar]

Project? There is no project. Just more speculators in over their heads.

They'll try to save the front if the city will pay for it. Ifthe city doesn't pay, they'll start saving it but it will be deemed a danger to the public and have to come down. Or it will accidentally collapse during demolition.


Hopefully the owners will prove me wrong.

[SteelTown]

Owners haven't asked for a cent.

Anyways CBC Hamilton has photos and videos of the damage inside the Church.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...tist-1.1931815

[durandy]

my 1881 house has the same problem. It's basically impossible to repair decaying stone walls like this without individually removing every single stone and remortaring. I can't imagine how this could be done on a building of this scale. . However I doubt it's anywhere near to collapse, the walls are probably two foot thick and there are no upper floors to hold up.

What I'm surprised at is the developer only estimates $2 million for saving the front. I'm guessing this means just keeping a structural portion of the front and not letting it carry any weight, because rebuilding that front on a new foundation would probably cost ten times that.

[SteelTown]

Can James Street Baptist be “dismantled?”

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/41...e-dismantled-/

A possible compromise is brewing to salvage more of the historic-but-disintegrating James Street Baptist Church.

A city heritage watchdog committee is scheduled to make a recommendation Wednesday on a demolition permit application from Louie Santaguida.

The developer has pitched knocking down three-quarters of the 135-year-old building for safety reasons while preserving the distinctive stone entrance and towers along James Street South.

But committee chair Michael Adkins said he now expects a "stronger proposal" from the developer Wednesday focusing on "more dismantling and less demolition."

The Spectator was unable to reach Santaguida or architect Drew Hauser for an interview Tuesday.

Adkins said he can't speak for the developer, but added he understood "discussions have taken place" around the idea of dismantling some unstable church walls and rebuilding them as part of a hybrid structure.

The developer is considering multi-residential and commercials options for the downtown property, but hasn't made public any plans for a building design or height.

"I think it's pretty clear he's going to face considerable resistance to simply knocking most of the building down and building completely new on the back end," said Adkins, noting the church is protected by both a provincial heritage designation and a separate easement.

"I think the idea of reusing stone material has merit, but not if it's simply as decoration."

The heritage permit review committee put off a decision on the demolition permit two weeks ago, encouraging the developer to return with a better preservation plan.

Committee members toured the church before that meeting, noting fallen rubble within the church, bowed walls and piles of sands – formerly mortar – that had leaked out of the unstable stone walls.

Engineer Grant Milligan said he feared the deteriorating walls could eventually collapse outward, damaging nearby buildings or injuring passersby.

If the committee and city heritage staff disagree on a recommendation for the demolition permit, the ultimate decision could end up before city council.

[SteelTown]

https://twitter.com/SamCraggsCBC/sta...013696/photo/1

[SteelTown]

https://twitter.com/SamCraggsCBC

[Beedok]

I still wish for the tower to have some sort of a gothic look to it.

[SteelTown]

Final vote was 4-2. Now planning staff will work with the developer on plans for James Baptist & approve before demolition

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Beedok

I still wish for the tower to have some sort of a gothic look to it.

Me too. It should complement the church. A good design would complement St. Paul's and the stone building behind James Baptist too.

This would be a good first test for the design review panel. The pilot starts January 1. What are the odds of the owner pulling together a full proposal to get approval for demolition within 2 months?

[lucasmascotto]

Demo permit for James Street Baptist Church jumps hurdle
The Hamilton Spectator
By: Daniel Nolan

A developer's contentious proposal to knock down three-quarters of James Street Baptist Church can go forward.

The city's heritage permit review subcommittee approved a demolition permit application for developer Louie Santaguida Wednesday night — with numerous conditions — to remove the back of the landmark downtown church and retain the façade on James Street South.

Engineers for the developer had told him the building was unsafe and in danger of collapse, possibly damaging nearby buildings or injuring passersby. The congregation had moved out of the 135-year-old building and sold it to Santaguida due to safety concerns.

The developer is considering multi-residential and commercial options for the downtown property, but doesn't have a firm building height or design nailed down.

Members of the subcommittee initially favoured obtaining another engineer's thoughts on the condition of the building — a peer review — but Santaguida and engineer Michael Schor argued enough had already been done.

Santaguida said he had consulted with three engineers plus a contractor, who told him the church was unsafe.

The vote on the demolition permit was a bit rocky. Two members — Rebecca Beatty and former heritage committee chair Diane Dent — abstained.

"You know, we're passionate, but we're also afraid," Dent said while the peer review proposal was being hotly debated. "You know if we approve from the façade back and nothing happens, what are they going to say about this committee?"

Four members, Jennifer Trimble, Wilf Arndt, Joseph Zidanic and Danielle Bawden, voted to support it. Some of the conditions include the east tower of the church be preserved, and that it cannot be impacted by the new building, and that if Santaguida has not obtained a building permit by Dec. 31, 2014, he would have to come back and apply for a new demolition permit.

"I think, with the conditions in place, it's the best fit scenario," said Zidanic.

Subcommittee chair Michael Adkins told the gathering at the outset the decision on the permit was "probably the biggest decision the committee has made in its history."

"That was the most uncomfortable vote I've ever been involved in," he said at the end of the evening.

Santaguida had architect Drew Hauser present concept designs of what he was proposing for the site. After the meeting, he called it a "very positive decision."

"I'm actually elated with the fact the subcommittee voted in the right direction. It's a pivotal and crucial part of Hamilton and I believe this will start the rebirth of this part of James Street."

[SteelTown]

Nah I like old mixed in with new like the Witton Lofts.

Old mixed in with fake faux wannable heritage building tend to never turn out good.

[coalminecanary]

We are allowing this demolition based on a wireframe sketch? This is no better than Blanchard's rendering with all of the askew lines and the downhill mountain biker out front.

...and no guarantee it will actually get built