MLB Team in Vancouver - Where would you put them?

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by phesto

I think the above poster was implying that we don't have the same demographics as those cities (ie. baseball fans).

Sitting around at a baseball stadium is near the top of the list of things to do in most of those cities you listed, but would be so far down the list for so many Vancouverites that I can't see this city supporting a full 81-game home season.

That's interesting.

Do you have any evidence (empirical or otherwise) to support your beliefs about the hypothetical priorities that Vancouverites might have if Vancouver was actually a part of Major League Baseball (a far bigger league than the NHL), competing against the likes of the famed San Francisco Giants, Chicago Cubs, New York Yankees, etc.?

Clearly, baseball has a much higher level of popularity and a greater tradition in Vancouver than you seem fully cognizant of. For instance, since the 1920s, Vancouver has hosted either a high-level or major league-affiliated professional baseball team, including the current single-A team, which has been a success both on and off the field. Vancouver is also the primary fountainhead of Canadian talent in Major League Baseball. Of the current Canadian players in MLB, a plurality (if not outright majority) come from Metro Vancouver, due to its highly advanced and established youth baseball scene. In fact, in 1951, British Columbia became the first place outside of the U.S. to join Little League Baseball, and Langley has sent a team to the World Series in South Williamsport, Pennsylvania almost every year for the last decade, including this year again. Langley's Matt Lawrie caused a sensation in Toronto this year, and many thousands of Lower Mainland residents travelled 3 hours down to Seattle numerous times this season to see Lawrie and the Blue Jays play, making Safeco Field feel more like a home game for the Jays than for the Mariners. The popularity of a home-grown MLB star here in Vancouver (like a Steve Nash of baseball) needs no elucidation.

A person who cannot imagine that baseball is popular enough in Metro Vancouver for MLB is someone who has failed to make himself fully aware of the culture and history of his own city.

[c@taract_soulj@h]

Vancouver has the population, that's not an issue...you can even include a few Washingtonians who've given up on the Mariners lol.

It's more of an interest issue though and if they'd support the team enough to keep the better half of BC Place full. Lots of good local talent and even from the WBL and PCL etc would make for great prospects. It'd be a decent shot in the dark anyways to "try" a team in Vancouver but if not, they might have to start knocking on the door of maybe somewhere in Tennessee.

Oh snap...I just noticed now that the above alternative just referenced the Grizzlies

Van is North American as much as any other city so I don't see why not it'd work but I've always just had in my head since the Expos left that Toronto will still be the only Canadian city to ever have a team. Montreal will never see baseball again but I do miss having the Expos play. But give it a shot BC! I think it'd make for a great rivalry

[phesto]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

That's interesting.

Do you have any evidence (empirical or otherwise) to support your beliefs about the hypothetical priorities that Vancouverites might have if Vancouver was actually a part of Major League Baseball (a far bigger league than the NHL), competing against the likes of the famed San Francisco Giants, Chicago Cubs, New York Yankees, etc.?

Clearly, baseball has a much higher level of popularity and a greater tradition in Vancouver than you seem fully cognizant of. For instance, since the 1920s, Vancouver has hosted either a high-level or major league-affiliated professional baseball team, including the current single-A team, which has been a success both on and off the field. Vancouver is also the primary fountainhead of Canadian talent in Major League Baseball. Of the current Canadian players in MLB, a plurality (if not outright majority) come from Metro Vancouver, due to its highly advanced and established youth baseball scene. In fact, in 1951, British Columbia became the first place outside of the U.S. to join Little League Baseball, and Langley has sent a team to the World Series in South Williamsport, Pennsylvania almost every year for the last decade, including this year again. Langley's Matt Lawrie caused a sensation in Toronto this year, and many thousands of Lower Mainland residents travelled 3 hours down to Seattle numerous times this season to see Lawrie and the Blue Jays play, making Safeco Field feel more like a home game for the Jays than for the Mariners. The popularity of a home-grown MLB star here in Vancouver (like a Steve Nash of baseball) needs no elucidation.

A person who cannot imagine that baseball is popular enough in Metro Vancouver for MLB is someone who has failed to make himself fully aware of the culture and history of his own city.

We can argue all day about how popular baseball actually is in Vancouver. At the end of the day, if a person or group wants to bring MLB to Vancouver, they will need to make a business case based on facts to prove there is demand here, and for a variety of reasons that both myself and others have touched upon, I don't see it happening in the foreseeable future. But that's just my opinion as an avid baseball fan and long-time Vancouver resident.

I think the biggest thing that could improve our chances are the return of AAA baseball (which sounds like it might happen sooner than later) and consistent attendance.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

Good grief, the rose-coloured goggles in this thread. Even the Canucks have had attendance issues in the past ("$0.25 and a payphone to move this team"), and that was with a shiny new downtown arena. It's nuts to think that anyone would be willing to risk the kind of money required to bring an MLB team here, let alone an MLB AND an NBA team. Vancouver simply does not have the population for that, and that fact should be obvious considering Toronto is a small market in both leagues, even with the Leafs having an extended playoff drought. And Montreal doesn't have a team in either league.

Your Canucks history is a little off, but whatever.

Toronto ranks as the 4th largest sports market in N.A. using the same metropolitan measuring standards that U.S. cities use. The problem with the Blue Jays is the horrible stadium they play in. While other cities have moved on from multi-purpose stadiums to purpose built baseball parks, Toronto is stuck with the soulless, sterile monstrosity that is Rogers Centre.

The character and ambiance of these new parks in itself is enough to draw a significant number of fans. The overall experience of going to a baseball game in much smaller cities like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Seattle, etc, is far superior to anything mighty Toronto can offer. Right now Toronto is just going through the motions of being a MLB city. The keys to success for these new ballparks is to stay away from multi-purpose stadiums in suburban surroundings as it once was, and return to an urban environment and provide a spectacular setting to maximize the overall baseball experience.

As good as some of these new ball parks are, a waterfront baseball park at Gastown would be even better. No other city could provide a more spectacular back drop that Vancouver could, with the water and very prominent North Shore mountains. And the urban setting, with historic Gastown and the densely populated downtown peninsula, would be second to none.

I don't think there would be any argument that Vancouver could provide a first class baseball experience, but do we have the population and demand. Using the single A Vancouver Canadians as an example, they averaged 4200 fans per game at a stadium that is run down and in the middle of a low density residential neighborhood. Still the ambiance and social aspect of baseball was enough to draw good crowds for a team that very few would know much about. To put in perspective, the Vancouver Giants (major junior) draw an average of 7000/game (5th best in Canada).

And I don't think Vancouver is as small as some might think. St.Louis, which has 3 pro teams, has the 18th largest metropolitan population in the U.S. at 2.8 million over an area of 8 000 sq. miles. The lower Mainland, which has about 1/6 the area of Metro St. Louis, has 2.7 million people.

I know I'm repeating myself, but besides providing a great baseball park, the Gastown Park would be a great venue for concerts and other events. An all round great cultural amenity that Vancouver needs (see no fun zone). And it would be easier to implement than it looks if we were to phase it in starting with bringing back a Triple A franchise and then move onto the Big Show.

[Nutterbug]

So do we have room for both a soccer and a baseball stadium in Gastown?

Has the soccer stadium plan been scrapped for good, due to resistance from area NIMBY's? If so, won't the baseball stadium be met with the same problem?

[logan5]

I think the Whitecaps are stuck with BC Place., but the Waterfront stadium is just too good an idea to let go of. There's room at the east side of the site. At least build a stellar AAA park. Nimby's are turning into white noise.

[Vancity]

The Waterfront Stadium will eventually be built. I can't see the 'Caps being at BC Place forever. Most likely after their 2016 contract with BC Place is up, so I'm assuming they'll probably press and continue to work towards their own stadium between now and 2016. They've got 5 years. They have a lot of work ahead of them.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by logan5

Your Canucks history is a little off, but whatever.

Toronto ranks as the 4th largest sports market in N.A. using the same metropolitan measuring standards that U.S. cities use. The problem with the Blue Jays is the horrible stadium they play in. While other cities have moved on from multi-purpose stadiums to purpose built baseball parks, Toronto is stuck with the soulless, sterile monstrosity that is Rogers Centre.

The character and ambiance of these new parks in itself is enough to draw a significant number of fans. The overall experience of going to a baseball game in much smaller cities like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Seattle, etc, is far superior to anything mighty Toronto can offer. Right now Toronto is just going through the motions of being a MLB city. The keys to success for these new ballparks is to stay away from multi-purpose stadiums in suburban surroundings as it once was, and return to an urban environment and provide a spectacular setting to maximize the overall baseball experience.

As good as some of these new ball parks are, a waterfront baseball park at Gastown would be even better. No other city could provide a more spectacular back drop that Vancouver could, with the water and very prominent North Shore mountains. And the urban setting, with historic Gastown and the densely populated downtown peninsula, would be second to none.

I don't think there would be any argument that Vancouver could provide a first class baseball experience, but do we have the population and demand. Using the single A Vancouver Canadians as an example, they averaged 4200 fans per game at a stadium that is run down and in the middle of a low density residential neighborhood. Still the ambiance and social aspect of baseball was enough to draw good crowds for a team that very few would know much about. To put in perspective, the Vancouver Giants (major junior) draw an average of 7000/game (5th best in Canada).

And I don't think Vancouver is as small as some might think. St.Louis, which has 3 pro teams, has the 18th largest metropolitan population in the U.S. at 2.8 million over an area of 8 000 sq. miles. The lower Mainland, which has about 1/6 the area of Metro St. Louis, has 2.7 million people.

I know I'm repeating myself, but besides providing a great baseball park, the Gastown Park would be a great venue for concerts and other events. An all round great cultural amenity that Vancouver needs (see no fun zone). And it would be easier to implement than it looks if we were to phase it in starting with bringing back a Triple A franchise and then move onto the Big Show.

I agree with most of what you said. I don't know if Vancouver (metro) has a large enough population for professional baseball. We may have a metro population of 2.7 mil. but many of those people are probably Canuck fans (and those tickets are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination). I'd love to see a stadium for baseball, AND for our pro soccer team (the 'caps) - but realistically, I just cannot see it going through unless it's through private money, and even then, it's going to be very difficult. The Whitecaps are finding that out now.

Having Triple A ball in this city would be wonderful. That may be a stepping stone for Major League Baseball one day, should the city draw and sell out in their Triple A stadium (where ever that's going to be, they certainly cannot continue to be at the Nat if they want to pursue Triple A ball).

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Vancity

I don't know if Vancouver (metro) has a large enough population for professional baseball. We may have a metro population of 2.7 mil. but many of those people are probably Canuck fans...

This issue has already been laid to rest. Vancouver has a metro population that is greater than (or equal to) eight cities that currently have MLB. Moreover, many of those cities also have NBA, NHL and/or NFL.

Denver, for example, has a metro population of about 2.5 million. How many of those people do you suppose are Colorado Avalanche fans (NHL), Denver Nuggets fans (NBA), Colorado Rapids fans (MLS), Tim Tebow and Denver Broncos fans (NFL)? Quite a few, and yet Denver is perfectly capable of supporting them all in addition to the Colorado Rockies (MLB).

The population of Metro Vancouver is not an issue. The Canucks would still be able to survive if the much bigger show (MLB) were to come to town.

[WarrenC12]

How about seeing if the Vancouver Canadians can survive again at the AAA level first?

[jlousa]

At the end of th day it doesn't matter if any of us think Vancouver could support it or not, what matters is there doesn't appear to be anyone with the money needed to make it happen, that beleives it.

I don't care for the NBA either but feel it would be a better fit as a arena and possible ownership group exist. If someone pops up with a desire to do an MLB team here it'll be great, I do think Triple-A ball is likely in our future though.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

How about seeing if the Vancouver Canadians can survive again at the AAA level first?

Sure, but we will not learn anything that we do not already know: High-level professional baseball has not only survived but flourished in Vancouver since the 1920s, including the Triple-A Vancouver Canadians for 22-straight seasons, from 1978 to 1999.

After winning the Triple-A World Series in 1999, the Vancouver Canadians were moved to Sacremento because the new ownership had a brand-new, $42 million, 14-thousand seat stadium waiting for the team, not because there was any lack of support in Vancouver.

Despite now being Single-A, professional baseball continues to flourish in Vancouver. This year, the current Vancouver Canadians had an attendance of over 162,000 (the second highest in the league) and won the Northwest League Championship title.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by logan5

..... The lower Mainland, which has about 1/6 the area of Metro St. Louis, has 2.7 million people.

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Denver, for example, has a metro population of about 2.5 million.

Not to contradict, but are you sure those city population figures are correct. According to what I looked up, Vancouver in 2010 had only 2,116,581 people.

Denver seems accurate, (although I had thought it a little bigger)

{dunno if this has any impact on sports teams coming here, though}

[phesto]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Sure, but we will not learn anything that we do not already know: High-level professional baseball has not only survived but flourished in Vancouver since the 1920s, including the Triple-A Vancouver Canadians for 22-straight seasons, from 1978 to 1999.

After winning the Triple-A World Series in 1999, the Vancouver Canadians were moved to Sacremento because the new ownership had a brand-new, $42 million, 14-thousand seat stadium waiting for the team, not because there was any lack of support in Vancouver.

Despite now being Single-A, professional baseball continues to flourish in Vancouver. The current Vancouver Canadians had an attendance of over 162,000 (the second highest in the league) and won the Northwest League Championship title.

Vancouver has a vastly higher population than any other city in the Northwest league, so by your logic, we should blow every other city out of the water in terms of attendance since we have so much demand for baseball here (yet we are still #2 behind Spokane, a city a quarter our size).

The move to AAA is not an easy one. Beside from some logistical/affiliate issues, it involves twice the capacity, and twice the number of games; including games right at the beginning of April when it is still cold and wet.

Personally I'm looking forward to seeing AAA baseball back in Vancouver in April, May and September, but it becomes more challenging for ticket sales due to weather and you lose a lot of the casual 'fair weather' fans during those months.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by phesto

Vancouver has a vastly higher population than any other city in the Northwest league, so by your logic, we should blow every other city out of the water in terms of attendance since we have so much demand for baseball here...

You are confused. I have never (explicitly or implicitly) adopted the premise that higher population translates into higher attendance irrespective of the level of the league. Indeed, I would venture that the more cosmopolitan a city is, the more sensitive it will be to a league's prestige, and that the lower the league's prestige, the lower the likelihood that its higher population will translate neatly into higher attendance, even though the city's interest in the particular sport is strong. If Vancouver lost Single-A baseball, for example, little league attendance would not suddenly increase. A strong interest in a sport does not imply a strong interest in all levels of play.

What I have been arguing, however, is that an examination of our past and present reveals an incontrovertably strong and continued interest in professional baseball and that our metro population more than exceeds the minimum threshold required to support an MLB franchise, as a look at other similar cities with MLB teams demonstrates.

[EastVanMark]

Some really good posts on this subject.
First off, under no circumstances would any MLB team call BC Place home...EVER. That ship sailed long ago. Its more than a little troubling that some in management at Pavco don't seem to know that. For any hope of landing a team, construction of a new baseball only ballpark is a non-negotiable necessity.

As has already been pointed out, Vancouver would be a top 20 market in terms of population which would be more than enough to play host to a team. However, it can be debated just how many dedicated baseball fans reside within the market. Also, although baseball does have a lot of home games, it is also the cheapest of the major 4 sports to attend. Tickets for some outfield seats can go for as low as $13 per game. For generations in Vancouver the "Nooners at the Nat" have consistently enjoyed large crowds or sold right out for games in the middle of the work day for AAA or A baseball in a ballpark a long way from the civic core with poor access.

Also, currently we don't even have a stadium suitable for AAA baseball. A new ballpark would have to be built even for that. Perhaps one could be constructed somewhere in the downtown core to go along with the waterfront soccer stadium. (The Whitecaps can opt out of BC Place within 5 years so that is not a problem). The 2 facilities could share a parkade and could be a draw to the area that would help support surrounding businesses. They could also play host to wide variety of other events (this could solve the Symphony of Fires' long time beef about not being able to charge for viewing the fireworks show; thereby enabling the event to become a moneymaker instantly) The ballpark could be constructed with an initial capacity of 10-15,000 with room to expand to double the size for MLB. Many current ballparks are being constructed in the 32,-36,000 range. That would be a perfect size for a smaller non-traditional MLB market.

[Vancity]

I find it difficult to believe that a stadium can be built for Triple A baseball in downtown, AND also have the Whitecaps soccer stadium built as well. The 'Caps are already finding it quite difficult to build, and Kerfoot is wanting to fit the bill. Is there space for two more stadiums of significant size? What happens to BC Place? Simply have the Lions play there (doesn't justify the cost of one team...and the CFL at that, to play in a renovated stadium that cost us taxpayers a lot of $$).

I can see the 'Caps stadium eventually being built. But as for Triple A - a brand new stadium? Unless it's coming out of the current ownership of the Canadians, I can't see a baseball specific stadium being built. I'd like to see Triple A ball back in Vancouver, I just don't know if it's going to be any time soon.

[Zassk]

The False Creek Flats would be an awesome location for a baseball stadium (given the assumption that a large waterfront stadium is unaffordable). It would be well-served by transit, and the land is mostly available and clear, although perhaps not so easy to build on. I think the only chance of getting sufficient daytime attendance would be if the stadium is downtown, or next to downtown.

[Prometheus]

There is no question that the stadium would have to be right downtown. The premier, most ambitious location (the one that would instantly give Vancouver the most iconic location in all baseball) would be a waterfront stadium, built out over the water, looking North, with fans and television cameras gazing upon the majesty of the North Shore Mountains.

The next best location (and the easier, I think, to build) would be the big empty field north of the train station, with home plate looking directly northwest toward BC Place and the downtown core, its skyscrapers silhouetted against the setting summer sun.

In either case, Vancouver would become famous for having one of the most beautiful urban baseball parks in the world. That alone would create a powerful brand and be an enormous draw.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

There is no question that the stadium would have to be right downtown. The premier, most ambitious location (the one that would instantly give Vancouver the most iconic location in all baseball) would be a waterfront stadium, built out over the water, looking North, with fans and television cameras gazing upon the majesty of the North Shore Mountains.

The next best location (and the easier, I think, to build) would be the big empty field north of the train station, with home plate looking directly northwest toward BC Place and the downtown core, its skyscrapers silhouetted against the setting summer sun.

In either case, Vancouver would become famous for having one of the most beautiful urban baseball parks in the world. That alone would create a powerful brand and be an enormous draw.

Ballparks are not permitted to face west, due to the sunsets blinding the batters for over an hour each and every evening.

I started this thread with this image - use it for reference.





Another thing to realize, is that Vancouver will be the most northern MLB market, and thus, the sun in the early summer and late spring will set even further to the northwest than southern US cities, where it will set more to the west than the north. Baseball is the only north american sport that ensures its fields are constructed in a way that the sunset will always shine towards the outfield than the infield.