Ottawa intercity bus terminal relocation

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I don't see intercity trains entering downtown Otawa. Ever. There just isn't room for it. There is more to a station than just the station building, there are train yards, areas for baggage and cargo handling, not to mention the parking requirements and the traffic of people dropping off and picking up passengers. As infrequent as the arrivals are in VIA station, it does cause momentary traffic jam in the vicinity.

The DNDHQ site looks to be comparable in size to that of Montreal's Gare Centrale and we've got an equivalent to Place Bonaventure as well in the Rideau Centre.

The train yards are a relatively easy problem to deal with with this site. Nicholas Street is pretty much built on fill since that area used to be a train yard at an elevation not much higher than the canal. Since I think Nicholas should be disappeared into a tunnel anyway, the entire corridor would see the fill removed and replaced with tracks and a lowered Nicholas. This would then be covered back over and landscaped with Colonel By lifted on top of that structure, giving a nice edge to the UoO campus. Of course this would impact the current preferred route of LRT, which I think should go under King Edward.

I had started a thread awhile back on sorting out transportation in the Nicholas-King Edward corridor to discuss these sort of issues.

Also, for high speed rail to be viable in North America, it needs to compete and be well integrated with airports. The way I see it a first phase could start in Montreal Central Station (YMY), stop in Dorval airport (YUL), head to Ottawa train station (XDS) and terminate in Ottawa Airport (YOW). Taking it into downtown Ottawa would dead-end it there, unless there was a massive expenditure to take it across in another tunnel downtown, a huge cost for something that would be used only a few times a day.

HSR Trains are double-ended, so a terminal-style station isn't a big deal so long as the train stops for long enough (which it would pretty much have to). There's also not a lot of advantage in serving Ottawa's airport unless you're going to be able to get from it into downtown Ottawa by rail, which would be a useful side benefit of re-establishing a rail station downtown.

Of course serving the airport with HSR brings up another issue: how to get a line from the airport and enroute to Toronto and what route that will take.

There are a lot of grim areas surrounding the Montreal and Toronto stations (or any station in Europe for that matter) that are pretty hard to disguise. There just is no way parts of downtown Ottawa would be ripped up for it.

As above, burying it is probably the way to go.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by gjhall

The UK's new HSR plan has Birmingham as a shoot of the line to a downtown terminal point in addition to a stop "Birmingham Interchange" on the main line.

If you look at the existing railtrack there is essentially a one track that comes in from Toronto and points west past Hurdman and to the current station and it keeps going to Montreal and points east.

Assuming a track, tunneled or not, went to Union Station via Colonel By Drive, it would only deviate from the line for 2 km, then could reverse back to the main line. A pretty minimal time delay considering the train has to stop anyway.

Let's not forget that an investment in HSR will not mean the current LOW rate of service, it will be a fundamental shift in transport mode, with a fairly constant flow of trains throughout the day, you know, like in other developed countries...

Another thing the line would have to have suitability for is commuter rail from the outlying communities, which would be highly advantageous to have its central station close to most of the employment areas.

2 tracks in the station should be designed for a potential continuation to Gatineau via a redesigned Alexandra Bridge (underneath Majors Hill Park before returning to the surface) for a connection to the QGRY corridor. That would require the closure of that bridge to vehicles (it is the lightest-used of the bridges anyway). That would enable commuter rail from the Quebec side.

[Ottawan]

Since we're discussing how we'd do HSR through Ottawa, here's my route:

It would head North out of Montreal, connect to Mirabel airport (a great chance to resurrect that next-to-dead massive complex), take the Quebec route to Ottawa (shadowing future highway 50). It would cross from Gatineau into Ottawa on the Prince of Wales bridge (or a new parallel bridge), and the terminal would be at Bayview - a location much closer to downtown in an area with much greater development potential than at the existing train station, and one that would be at the hub of every main LRT route. The line would then follow the current O-Train line (the trench may need widening, and a new tunnel would be required to take it under Carleton University) and would have it's next stop at the Macdonal-Cartier Airport. It would then be able to use the Greenbelt as it's corridor to exit Ottawa altogether.

If we are concerned with intermodality, the bus terminal could also be relocated to Bayview, although this would require buses to exit the Queensway at Parkdale, which is probably further than bus operators would like.

I'm not sure if this last bit is technologically possible, but if the electric rail and heavier rail could run on the same track, then communter rail could enter Ottawa via the main southern East-West line (the one that connects to the Walkley Yards), go up the O-Train (and ultimately electric-heavy rail hybrid) line to Bayview as well.

[White Pine]

I'm not sure I'd count the current station as Downtown. It's still far from everything. The train station seems easier to get to and is on the Transitway, from my limited Ottawa experience anyway

[Yroc]

Have to agree.... if your going to random place X in Ottawa being dropped on the main transit line is much better than being left at the current bus station. For picking up folks by car, both locations work equally well as they both have good access to the 417.

There are plans to build a walking bridge over the 417 near the ball stadium. This (if ever built) will provide access to the new hotel that was just built. It would be nice to see a south link from the train station to the trainyards as well. Right now, high fences block access. A simple walking path would do.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

Since we're discussing how we'd do HSR through Ottawa, here's my route:

It would head North out of Montreal, connect to Mirabel airport (a great chance to resurrect that next-to-dead massive complex), take the Quebec route to Ottawa (shadowing future highway 50). It would cross from Gatineau into Ottawa on the Prince of Wales bridge (or a new parallel bridge), and the terminal would be at Bayview - a location much closer to downtown in an area with much greater development potential than at the existing train station, and one that would be at the hub of every main LRT route. The line would then follow the current O-Train line (the trench may need widening, and a new tunnel would be required to take it under Carleton University) and would have it's next stop at the Macdonal-Cartier Airport. It would then be able to use the Greenbelt as it's corridor to exit Ottawa altogether.

That's way too hilly a route for HSR. If you've been north of Montebello lately where they are building a section of the 50, they are literally moving entire mountainsides for it, and there is still a bit of climbing and turning. The plan for HSR has always been going through Prescott-Russell where it is much flatter (what is now the Prescott-Russell Trail was originally purchased for HSR). A bridge would have probably been built somewhere between Hawkesbury and Lachute. Also, lets face it, Mirabel is dead, a huge waste of money, a decision made when planes were smaller, less efficient and much noisier. A combined Trudeau/Macdonald-Cartier/Pearson airports connected by HSR could more than handle the future demand for air travel in the future, especially with much of corridor traffic offloaded to HSR.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by gjhall

There are lots of complications to this but I think we all know that this would be the best end result. We need to dream bigger in this city and demand the kind of major funds other large cities get out of provincial and federal governments.

Yes, but the prerequisite to that would be for Ottawa to be part of a province, and buggered if I can figure out which province Ottawa is part of.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Gare du Nord is about 5 km from central Paris (Champs-Élysées/Arc de Triomphe/Eiffel Tower)

Waterloo Station is roughly 2 to 4 km from most points in central London (closer to Parliament at Westminster, and a bit further from the "City").

For the sake of comparison, the Ottawa VIA station on Tremblay is about 5 km from Parliament Hill.

And for the sake of further comparison, the Ottawa VIA station is surrounded by km of bleak nothingness in all directions.

Le Gare du Nord? Waterloo?

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I don't see intercity trains entering downtown Otawa. Ever. There just isn't room for it. There is more to a station than just the station building, there are train yards, areas for baggage and cargo handling, not to mention the parking requirements and the traffic of people dropping off and picking up passengers. As infrequent as the arrivals are in VIA station, it does cause momentary traffic jam in the vicinity.

There are a lot of grim areas surrounding the Montreal and Toronto stations (or any station in Europe for that matter) that are pretty hard to disguise. There just is no way parts of downtown Ottawa would be ripped up for it.

If a site along DOTT can be found that can accommodate a terminal with underground rail leading to it, then yards can be a short distance away (as in, Tremblay rd). As for parking, that was the 1965 excuse for ripping the station out of the heart of Ottawa. How much parking do you figure there is at Union Station or Gare Bonaventure? Montreal has a limited amount of structured parking, but basically, the métro feeds the station. So it would be with DOTT.

Stations don't mean grim areas necessarily. The point of a passenger rail terminal is to drop off and pick up rail passengers. Marshalling yards can, and should be, elsewhere.

[umbria27]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Following up on Dado's concept, move DND-HQ out to the old Nortel Palace and replace the towers with a BIG hotel connected to the New Conference Centre (and providing additional meeting room space).

This is a bit of a side discussion, but I don't agree with moving DND-HQ out of the centre. Moving jobs to industrial parks doesn't help the city.
I agree that the current location and design of DND-HQ is problematic, because there's a whole triangle between the Rideau centre and the University of Ottawa which is pedestrian free. It would be a fantastic place for expanded conference and trade show facilities.
DND, like other federal offices should remain downtown somewhere. We want people working and living in the the centre. I don't buy the security argument for moving it to the greenbelt. You wouldn't move Parliament to the greenbelt.

[c_speed3108]

From cbc...

Ottawa Via Rail lands to be developed
Last Updated: Thursday, April 8, 2010 | 9:57 AM ET

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2010/04/08/ottawa-via-canderel.html#ixzz0kWYvDmzE


Shops, homes and offices could soon surround Ottawa's passenger train station.

Via Rail has selected Canderel Property Management as a partner to help it develop about 3.4 hectares of its 9.3-hectare property on Tremblay Road, east of downtown Ottawa, said Via Rail spokesman Malcolm Andrew.

"There is, we think, a great deal of potential that is untapped," he said.

Via will retain ownership of the property, but the "field is wide open" to different types of development, which could include stores, offices and housing, Andrew said. The result is expected to provide rental income for Via and also benefit customers, he added.

"There are not a lot of services in and around the station proper as it sits today."
Bus terminal possible

Andrews confirmed Ottawa Mayor Larry O'Brien had also written to Via to suggest moving the city's intercity bus terminal to the train station and that Greyhound had made similar proposals twice over the past decade.

"This is certainly something that the developer will want to have a look at and see whether it might fit into a larger development proposal."

He said it's a coincidence that the letter arrived at a time when Via is exploring development of its lands.

Canderel is currently studying the options and will meet with Via to discuss its findings. The company's previous development projects include the Bell Campus in Montreal and the Residences of College Park in Toronto.

Via has already done significant development around some of its other stations, including Winnipeg and Vancouver. This past January, it issued a request for letters of interest to develop the Ottawa station.

Meanwhile, the owner of the downtown bus terminal said he wants to keep that station where it is on Catherine Street.

"I bought it as an income property," said Stewart Robertson, who is based in Vancouver. "I didn't buy it to go turn it into a shopping centre or anything else."

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2010/04/08/ottawa-via-canderel.html#ixzz0kWYsLYOQ

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by umbria27

This is a bit of a side discussion, but I don't agree with moving DND-HQ out of the centre. Moving jobs to industrial parks doesn't help the city.
I agree that the current location and design of DND-HQ is problematic, because there's a whole triangle between the Rideau centre and the University of Ottawa which is pedestrian free. It would be a fantastic place for expanded conference and trade show facilities.
DND, like other federal offices should remain downtown somewhere. We want people working and living in the the centre. I don't buy the security argument for moving it to the greenbelt. You wouldn't move Parliament to the greenbelt.

I can see moving DND somewhere slightly more out of the way, now that they have retreated into their bunker mentality, but any new location should be on a major transit route.

See the RCMP move for an example how NOT to do things.

Edited to add: And it would be nice to see the future-former DND building occupied by tenants who'd undo the ugliness on the bridge, and reopen the long-closed pedestrian link from Laurier to Mackenzie King.

Speaking of the god-awful former Nortel "campus", is there any way — imagine for a second the NCC with its Greenbelt fetish ceases to exist — that a future real transit link from Bayshore to Kanata could incorporate the Campus Formerly Known As Nortel?

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I can see moving DND somewhere slightly more out of the way, now that they have retreated into their bunker mentality, but any new location should be on a major transit route.

See the RCMP move for an example how NOT to do things.

Edited to add: And it would be nice to see the future-former DND building occupied by tenants who'd undo the ugliness on the bridge, and reopen the long-closed pedestrian link from Laurier to Mackenzie King.

I say knock the entire thing down and replace it with a new downtown rail and coach terminal.

Speaking of the god-awful former Nortel "campus", is there any way — imagine for a second the NCC with its Greenbelt fetish ceases to exist — that a future real transit link from Bayshore to Kanata could incorporate the Campus Formerly Known As Nortel?

Two general options:

(1) Take a routing west out of Bayshore, north up the excessively-wide Holly Acres to Andrew Haydon Park (take the train to the park named after Andy Haydon - oh, the sweet irony!), onto Carling and then once it's cleared Ullswater Drive take it into the main entrance of the campus on Moodie right past the front doors of the main building. From there I imagine one would want to take it to Carling, intercepting Carling somewhere around Rifle Rd so a station can be provided at the government Communications research facility (and with the side benefit of being able to step off the train and start pelting golf balls at the driving range). After that, it would under the Beachburg Sub and follow Carling until intercepting the Renfrew Sub following that and then up March Rd. I'd keep the LRT on the south side of Carling the entire way from Holly Acres to March to avoid too much messing around at intersections and crossing Carling, but there are a lot of houses with driveways on Carling opposite the sailing club that would be affected, so going down a median might be required.

(2) Follow the alignment of the former Renfrew Sub west from Bayshore right past the Lakeview Park/Crystal Bay community (NIMBY alert), then turn northwest across Moodie and skirt the southwestern fringes of the campus. From there you basically follow the previous route to Kanata.

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I can see moving DND somewhere slightly more out of the way, now that they have retreated into their bunker mentality, but any new location should be on a major transit route.

See the RCMP move for an example how NOT to do things.

Edited to add: And it would be nice to see the future-former DND building occupied by tenants who'd undo the ugliness on the bridge, and reopen the long-closed pedestrian link from Laurier to Mackenzie King.

Speaking of the god-awful former Nortel "campus", is there any way — imagine for a second the NCC with its Greenbelt fetish ceases to exist — that a future real transit link from Bayshore to Kanata could incorporate the Campus Formerly Known As Nortel?

Not that this would be easy/practical, but magically swapping the train station and DND's location would probably be a pretty solid solution.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by gjhall

Not that this would be easy/practical, but magically swapping the train station and DND's location would probably be a pretty solid solution.

Not too different but put DND at Hurdman north of the LRT station. As Richard Eade has pointed out elsewhere, the rail line is going to be up on an embankment that will basically turn the entire area to the north into a fortress ("Fort Hurdman"). The site would be secured on the east, south and west by the rail line and its embankment, the northeast by the Queensway and to the north by the river. One would be hard-pressed to find another site as readily secured as this one elsewhere in the city - only the various islands in the rivers - and all this at a location from which it is fairly easy to go downtown, to the airport (the SE Transitway) or east/west on the Queensway.

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by Dado

Not too different but put DND at Hurdman north of the LRT station. As Richard Eade has pointed out elsewhere, the rail line is going to be up on an embankment that will basically turn the entire area to the north into a fortress ("Fort Hurdman"). The site would be secured on the east, south and west by the rail line and its embankment, the northeast by the Queensway and to the north by the river. One would be hard-pressed to find another site as readily secured as this one elsewhere in the city - only the various islands in the rivers - and all this at a location from which it is fairly easy to go downtown, to the airport (the SE Transitway) or east/west on the Queensway.

I like it.

[Ottawan]

I second that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

And for the sake of further comparison, the Ottawa VIA station is surrounded by km of bleak nothingness in all directions.

Le Gare du Nord? Waterloo?

Agree with what you say about Ottawa Station, but my point was only about distance to the centre of a city rather than the attractiveness of a station's surroundings. The area around Gare du Nord may be urban and dense but if you've ever been there it's not exactly the Champs-Élysées let me tell you. Very few travellers hang around Gare du Nord after arriving in Paris there.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Agree with what you say about Ottawa Station, but my point was only about distance to the centre of a city rather than the attractiveness of a station's surroundings. The area around Gare du Nord may be urban and dense but if you've ever been there it's not exactly the Champs-Élysées let me tell you. Very few travellers hang around Gare du Nord after arriving in Paris there.

No, but even having bad urban fabric reduces the psychological and economic isolation of that station, as compared to Moonbase Greber, surrounded by crap and highways, where our trains come in, when they're not late or derailed.

[waterloowarrior]

new website from the owner of the current terminal
http://keepitdowntownottawa.com/