Too much emphasis on Native culture and not enough on British culture

[03SVTcobra]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Seriously dude, this is verging on sensitive territory.

If you want to give the British "credit," you should include less savory things such as the introduction of smallpox and other infectious diseases to an advanced and thriving aboriginal culture, and seriously discriminatory policies against people of Chinese descent that lasted well into the 20th century. Check out http://sen.parl.gc.ca/vpoy/english/Special_Interests/speeches/Speech%20-%20AAAS%20Toronto.htm if you want to find out just how discriminatory those policies were. Maybe one of the reasons why all the "founding fathers" of BC were British was because of minor points such as the fact that BC was a British colony at the time and Asians were completely disenfranchised, hmm?

Meantime, in the context of the 2010 Olympics, you should be asking yourself what is uniquely **CANADIAN** culture? While Canada owes its legal system and rule of law to its British heritage, it sure ain't "British" "culture" that people think about when they think about Canada. Rather it's the rich First Nations heritage and the multicultural diversity that defines Canada and BC -- of which British, Chinese and numerous other cultures continue to play a part.

To try to compare what culture has contributed "more" and who is taking "credit" for what is a farcical discussion that does injustice to all cultures and ethnicities who have contributed to Canada's cultural identity, fabric and freedom.

Enough said.

Theres nothing wrong with debating which culture has contributed more to BC. Although I think the clear winner is Britain. Look at all the names of the cities in the lower mainland Langley, Surrey, Victoria, Richmond, New Westminster, Burnaby, all are very British names. The games are more about what is uniquely BC rather than uniquely Canada. Montreal integrated it's french heritage into it's games. When Calgary hosted the games it took a new, fresh, modern approach although it did also pay homage to it's prairie heritage. Both cities had native indians living there at some point in the past yet they weren't incorporated into the games.

[raggedy13]

Originally Posted by 03SVTcobra

What is the staggering effect? All the founding fathers of modern BC are British. There are way more people in BC with British heritage than there are Chinese. What exactly have the Chinese done? Other than move here? Compare the effect British people have had on BC and Vancouver from its colonization up until now with the effect of Chinese people. Its laughable. Sorry if you're Chinese, but I'm not gonna let you take credit for things your people haven't done.

This is one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read. The Chinese started settling in BC essentially the same time as the British and what they've "done" is exactly what the British did - settle, raise families, setup shops and businesses, establish communities, historic sites, cultural institutions, brought over their unique customs, cuisines, religions, architectural influences, etc etc. Not to mention the Chinese physically built the majority of the railroad, one of the most monumental feats in BC's history. BC's history and any semblance of collective culture is entirely inseparable from the presence and contribution of early Chinese-Canadians. The impact of the Chinese community has only grown as time has gone on, meanwhile "British" cultural impact has steadily declined.

Yes, much of (Anglo-) Canada's historic and current population share a direct British ethnic and cultural lineage but Canadian culture split away from British culture generations ago and has developed on a completely independent trajectory since. What do we really have in common with distinctly British culture now? Do we regularly eat beans on toast? Have tea with crumpets? Sing God Save the Queen? Drive on the left side of the road? Exclaim "Bloody Brilliant!" every now and then? What the heck about us is so British that it is worth highlighting during the Olympics?

We share a monarchy that has completed outlived its use and relevance and we mostly all speak/know English but that's about it, and with that said even in terms of linguistics we've diverged from the British over time. What else do we have in common with Britain that isn't simply part of a greater global/Western culture - i.e. technological advancements and Coca-Cola? How could we possibly showcase our "Britishness" during the Olympics? Personally I don't think we can because we don't really have any aside from tourist-trap kitsch like tea at the Empress, but that's not our actual culture - I sure as hell know I don't relate to tea at the Empress.

In my mind we should showcase "Vancouver culture". Why? Because there is such a thing. And as someone born and raised here and hence intimately familiar and ultimately inseparable from it, I can easily observe and know from experience that it is not the same as the socio-cultural landscape of Britain (past or present) - it isn't even the same as that of Toronto, Calgary, Montreal, Kelowna etc. It would be wise to showcase the few things that are commonly shared aspects of Canadian culture, and even to show things that are uncommonly shared (distinctly regional) aspects of Canadian culture, but at the end of the day Vancouver is organizing the games. What we know and what we're all about is our local culture, and our local culture does include significant Chinese influence, significant Native influence, etc. Why are we emphasizing Native culture even though a relatively small proportion of Vancouver is ethnically Native? Because Vancouverites love Native culture/art. That is who Vancouverites as a collective cultural entity are. Things that suit our needs, benefit us, that we enjoy etc are retained (and - like Native artistic styles - potentially amplified) and those that don't are cast off or wither over time. This is one significant way in which cultures (including on the local and not just national scale) have always organically evolved (for more info do some research on cultural evolution and memes). Alright, I'm tired of ranting. To summarize, Vancouver is culturally synonymous with Native art and is not synonymous with bangers and mash.

[mr.x]

^ Well said, and I think the Asian and native influence is definitely properly reflected in our mascots.

Some say it's "too-Asian"....well, Canada doesn't exactly have a animation style and anime is not just a Japanese phenomenon but rather a worldwide one.

[03SVTcobra]

Originally Posted by raggedy13

This is one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read. The Chinese started settling in BC essentially the same time as the British and what they've "done" is exactly what the British did - settle, raise families, setup shops and businesses, establish communities, historic sites, cultural institutions, brought over their unique customs, cuisines, religions, architectural influences, etc etc. Not to mention the Chinese physically built the majority of the railroad, one of the most monumental feats in BC's history. BC's history and any semblance of collective culture is entirely inseparable from the presence and contribution of early Chinese-Canadians. The impact of the Chinese community has only grown as time has gone on, meanwhile "British" cultural impact has steadily declined.

Yes, much of (Anglo-) Canada's historic and current population share a direct British ethnic and cultural lineage but Canadian culture split away from British culture generations ago and has developed on a completely independent trajectory since. What do we really have in common with distinctly British culture now? Do we regularly eat beans on toast? Have tea with crumpets? Sing God Save the Queen? Drive on the left side of the road? Exclaim "Bloody Brilliant!" every now and then? What the heck about us is so British that it is worth highlighting during the Olympics?

We share a monarchy that has completed outlived its use and relevance and we mostly all speak/know English but that's about it, and with that said even in terms of linguistics we've diverged from the British over time. What else do we have in common with Britain that isn't simply part of a greater global/Western culture - i.e. technological advancements and Coca-Cola? How could we possibly showcase our "Britishness" during the Olympics? Personally I don't think we can because we don't really have any aside from tourist-trap kitsch like tea at the Empress, but that's not our actual culture - I sure as hell know I don't relate to tea at the Empress.

In my mind we should showcase "Vancouver culture". Why? Because there is such a thing. And as someone born and raised here and hence intimately familiar and ultimately inseparable from it, I can easily observe and know from experience that it is not the same as the socio-cultural landscape of Britain (past or present) - it isn't even the same as that of Toronto, Calgary, Montreal, Kelowna etc. It would be wise to showcase the few things that are commonly shared aspects of Canadian culture, and even to show things that are uncommonly shared (distinctly regional) aspects of Canadian culture, but at the end of the day Vancouver is organizing the games. What we know and what we're all about is our local culture, and our local culture does include significant Chinese influence, significant Native influence, etc. Why are we emphasizing Native culture even though a relatively small proportion of Vancouver is ethnically Native? Because Vancouverites love Native culture/art. That is who Vancouverites as a collective cultural entity are. Things that suit our needs, benefit us, that we enjoy etc are retained (and - like Native artistic styles - potentially amplified) and those that don't are cast off or wither over time. This is one significant way in which cultures (including on the local and not just national scale) have always organically evolved (for more info do some research on cultural evolution and memes). Alright, I'm tired of ranting. To summarize, Vancouver is culturally synonymous with Native art and is not synonymous with bangers and mash.

I'd say that the size of the Chinese community has grown but their impact has pretty much stayed the same, which is not very much to begin with. I find that Orientals, more than any other foreign culture, try their hardest to assimilate with into Canadian society. Practically everything from their old country is left behind, in the case of my friends anyway. They hardly know anything of their Chinese heritage and from looking at their house or wardrobe, you'd never know they were Chinese. Thats the way I see it. Yes there are many cultures here in the lower mainland, but they're living in a place that was envisioned and created by the British. It's only right to pay homage.

[raggedy13]

^You have a very egocentric worldview. They don't have a Chinese wardrobe? Do you expect them to be wearing traditional Chinese silk robes or something? Do you walk around in a three piece suit and a bowler hat sporting mutton chops? No? Then a kilt perhaps? Cultures are not static entities. Contemporary Chinese fashion has changed just as British has. To say that jeans, sneakers and a t-shirt are quintessentially British is beyond ignorant. Obviously this logic extends well beyond apparel. The world we live in is not British. Most of the modern conveniences and popular culture we enjoy weren't even invented by the British. This includes contemporary music, fashion, consumer electronics, local housing architecture etc. Immigrants conforming to Canadian cultural norms has nothing to do with British culture and they don't owe the British or British culture any homage whatsoever.

[raggedy13]

Originally Posted by 03SVTcobra

I'd say that the size of the Chinese community has grown but their impact has pretty much stayed the same

Right, because 50 years ago you could easily get a bite of dim sum and grab a bubble tea while navigating your way around the airport via Chinese signage. The impact of the Chinese community has increased noticeably and significantly even just in my lifetime and I am nowhere near 50 years old.

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by 03SVTcobra

I'd say that the size of the Chinese community has grown but their impact has pretty much stayed the same, which is not very much to begin with. I find that Orientals, more than any other foreign culture, try their hardest to assimilate with into Canadian society. Practically everything from their old country is left behind, in the case of my friends anyway. They hardly know anything of their Chinese heritage and from looking at their house or wardrobe, you'd never know they were Chinese. Thats the way I see it. Yes there are many cultures here in the lower mainland, but they're living in a place that was envisioned and created by the British. It's only right to pay homage.

Sorry, but I find your mindset very naive on several levels. First off, Vancouver is a distinctly Canadian city, not a British one. The Canadian experience is multicultural and bilingual -- and not borne of one culture, as much as you would like to believe that. This is reflected in everything from our city's architecture to restaurant culture to our political beliefs and attitudes.

Second, it is impossible to ignore the important contributions over the years of not just the Chinese, but also the Germans, the Italians, the Indians, and yes, transplanted Americans. Not to mention the aforementioned First Nations.

Third, it wasn't until Vancouver moved past its "colonial" roots that it became what would be deemed a great city. Frankly, when Vancouver was more "British", 50 years ago, it was also more stuffy, more provincial, and unfortunately, more of a backwater.

In my opinion, if you want British kitsch, move to Victoria. The rest of North America has moved on.

So has London, for that matter.

[03SVTcobra]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

Sorry, but I find your mindset very naive on several levels. First off, Vancouver is a distinctly Canadian city, not a British one. The Canadian experience is multicultural and bilingual -- and not borne of one culture, as much as you would like to believe that. This is reflected in everything from our city's architecture to restaurant culture to our political beliefs and attitudes.

Second, it is impossible to ignore the important contributions over the years of not just the Chinese, but also the Germans, the Italians, the Indians, and yes, transplanted Americans. Not to mention the aforementioned First Nations.

Third, it wasn't until Vancouver moved past its "colonial" roots that it became what would be deemed a great city. Frankly, when Vancouver was more "British", 50 years ago, it was also more stuffy, more provincial, and unfortunately, more of a backwater.

In my opinion, if you want British kitsch, move to Victoria. The rest of North America has moved on.

So has London, for that matter.

Yes and we've also moved on from Native culture.

If people say British culture has no relevance in the current city of Vancouver than Native culture is even less relevant. Thats precisley why I started this thread. Incorporating Native culture into our games (and boy have we ever incorporated it in) instead of British culture makes no sense.

[vid]

If it wasn't for natives the white people would have died on this continent.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by 03SVTcobra

Yes and we've also moved on from Native culture.

If people say British culture has no relevance in the current city of Vancouver than Native culture is even less relevant. Thats precisley why I started this thread. Incorporating Native culture into our games (and boy have we ever incorporated it in) instead of British culture makes no sense.

again, the world is going to get British culture rammed down its throat during the 2012 summer games being held in London, England. lets let our natives have their moment in the sun.

[twoNeurons]

Interesting debate.

I will say one thing. Outside of Vancouver, Chinese influence mostly amounts to Sweet n' Sour Pork Balls, Chop Suey and Chicken Fried Rice. There's pretty much a Chinese restaurant in every town in BC. Of course, it doesn't really resemble the Chinese food you get in Vancouver.

In general, the culture of BC and Canada as a whole has of course had more British influence. Fought on the same side during the war, had much of its towns names after British ones, and still shares the same monarchy.

It's really not until a couple of decades post WWII that the Asian invasion of culture really started... which is when most of the influence started... though of course, some of the most dangerous stretches of railroad were of course laid by Chinese... China Bar tunnel near Boston Bar comes to mind. As for cultural influence, I'm not sure... apart from food, I can't really think of many that exist in BC... but perhaps they're so subtle and engrained that I missed them. I do see evidence of British culture... though I'd agree that it has waned in recent years.

Once you leave the protective bubble of Vancouver, you see that the rest of BC is quite non-multi-cultural. So, it's a question of whether or not we're trying to represent BC or Vancouver or Canada.

Btw, bubble Tea isn't chinese, it's Taiwanese.

If anyone wants to see something interesting, go down to King George Highschool on Denman. Usually they have courses at night on a couple of weeknights and you can walk in there. One one of the walls they show all the classes from, if I remember correctly, the 1920s. It's really quite interesting to see the cultures change over the years... as different waves of immigration poured in... Italians, Portugese, Greeks... etc...

[duener]

An English friend of mine, moved from the UK to Vancouver and he started referring to it as Canada-shire.

If you've only spent a short time in Britain you would notice the superficial differences, driving on the left (Vancouver changed in 1922), kebabs rather than kebobs, older buildings, CCTV everywhere, fresh sandwiches, produce wrapped in plastic, etc.

It was living in Britain for a while that made me really understand the root of culture in Canada/Vancouver a lot better. Of course there's the obvious stuff: government, laws, language, education system, flags, name places, engineering practices, technology, media, etc.

But below the surface, when you think about it, there's stuff like: the weird attitude towards liquor (Vancouver on Saturday night is much more similar to Bristol than Barcelona), urban planning (notice things like the ALR and the power the government in Canada are way more similar to the UK than the USA), the politeness (saying "sorry" all the time), political stability, multi-culturalism.

Look around the world and the most multi-racial, stable, economically advanced cities are former British colonies: NYC, Toronto, Sydney, etc.

The problem with Vancouver celebrating its Britishness, is that a good chunk of the world could do the same. The only unique element is the aboriginal stuff. Out of curiosity, how many people here actually have aboriginal art in their house? I bet not many. Also how many non-chinese people here know more chinese words than "gung hay fat choi"? It's kind of amazing that giving such a large asian population there isn't more of an influence (I guess the food is the big one).

Interestingly, in the UK, only the Scots and Welsh act nationalistic, wave flags and sing songs. The English bear the burden of having conquered them and much of the world. I think it's the same problem in BC.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by 03SVTcobra

What is the staggering effect? All the founding fathers of modern BC are British. There are way more people in BC with British heritage than there are Chinese. What exactly have the Chinese done? Other than move here? Compare the effect British people have had on BC and Vancouver from its colonization up until now with the effect of Chinese people. Its laughable. Sorry if you're Chinese, but I'm not gonna let you take credit for things your people haven't done.

First off I am of British Isles and European descent, so your assumption is quite off (one would have thought my avitar would have given that one away..., but if you don't believe me im sure some of the other fourmers here who have met me can attest to just how painfully white I actually am.

Second of all, even as a white person even I find this post to be highly ignorant and offensive. To completely discount how Chinese and other Asians have helped shape this province, and even more profoundly this city, is ignorant and is underlain with inherent racism. “I’m Not going to let you take credit for things your people haven’t done” Are you kidding me??? You might want to watch your tolerance on this forum or you may find yourself banned quite quickly.

Of course the founding fathers were all British… the Chinese in BC were a subjugated and oppressed people during this time, but their exclusion does not mean they had no effect on how this province turned out. Especially in the past 50 years BC owes much of its success and current form to the influence of SE Asia. Just look at all the condo buildings around you, or the plethora of multi-cultural cuisine, asian inspired architecture, or the many prominent Asian business figures. BC’s very identity is one of multi-culturalism, for which we are known around the world… and what is the largest visible minority in BC? You guessed it, Chinese. The only thing laughable about comparing British and Chinese influence on modern British Columbia is not including the Chinese.

[city-dweller]

please don't day Vancouver is Bilingual. Vancouver is multilingual. Bilingual infers prevalence of the second official language, French, which is like 7th on the spoken languages in Vancouver area.

I own first nations art.

How many of you knew who the host first nations were before the Olympics were announced? I only point this out because this a simple fact and a lot of those who have a lot to say know very little on the subject. My biggest problem is with the lack of realistic lessons of aboriginal culture in pre-college/university education. Name 5 accomplished native people from the Vancouver area.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Originally Posted by 03SVTcobra

I find that Orientals, more than any other foreign culture, try their hardest to assimilate with into Canadian society. Practically everything from their old country is left behind, in the case of my friends anyway. They hardly know anything of their Chinese heritage and from looking at their house or wardrobe, you'd never know they were Chinese. Thats the way I see it. Yes there are many cultures here in the lower mainland, but they're living in a place that was envisioned and created by the British. It's only right to pay homage.

I agree with you, and as far as I'm concerned, that's what immigrants should be doing anyway. Multiculturalism should not be a country's identity!

Aboriginals should be recognized in the ceremonies... but not over done as per usual at Canadian events like this.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by duener

An English friend of mine, moved from the UK to Vancouver and he started referring to it as Canada-shire.

If you've only spent a short time in Britain you would notice the superficial differences, driving on the left (Vancouver changed in 1922), kebabs rather than kebobs, older buildings, CCTV everywhere, fresh sandwiches, produce wrapped in plastic, etc.

It was living in Britain for a while that made me really understand the root of culture in Canada/Vancouver a lot better. Of course there's the obvious stuff: government, laws, language, education system, flags, name places, engineering practices, technology, media, etc.

But below the surface, when you think about it, there's stuff like: the weird attitude towards liquor (Vancouver on Saturday night is much more similar to Bristol than Barcelona), urban planning (notice things like the ALR and the power the government in Canada are way more similar to the UK than the USA), the politeness (saying "sorry" all the time), political stability, multi-culturalism.

Look around the world and the most multi-racial, stable, economically advanced cities are former British colonies: NYC, Toronto, Sydney, etc.

The problem with Vancouver celebrating its Britishness, is that a good chunk of the world could do the same. The only unique element is the aboriginal stuff. Out of curiosity, how many people here actually have aboriginal art in their house? I bet not many. Also how many non-chinese people here know more chinese words than "gung hay fat choi"? It's kind of amazing that giving such a large asian population there isn't more of an influence (I guess the food is the big one).

Interestingly, in the UK, only the Scots and Welsh act nationalistic, wave flags and sing songs. The English bear the burden of having conquered them and much of the world. I think it's the same problem in BC.

Interesting perspective. Actually, having grown up in Vancouver and lived in the UK, US and Asia, I must say I had a greater culture shock when I moved to the UK than I did moving to the US -- a shock that in fundamental ways that went beyond driving on the left or calling elevators "lifts" or car trunks "boots". To me the fundamental difference is that Canada is still a very young nation that in many ways is still finding its identity and yet lives in the shadow of the US and -- like it or not -- gets saturated by US media. Britain by comparison has centuries of history and a world view shaped by this history.

My issue with the original post is not to deny or minimize the influence that Britain had on Canada's or BC's development. It is that the original poster minimizes the contribution that other cultures have had to Canadian identity. Saying things such as "the size of the Chinese community has grown but their impact has pretty much stayed the same, which is not very much to begin with" irritates me beyond belief because it indicates an extremely narrow world view and minimizes the struggle and sacrifice of many of these people.

[djmk]

Originally Posted by tintinium

Interesting debate.

It's really quite interesting to see the cultures change over the years... as different waves of immigration poured in... Italians, Portugese, Greeks... etc...

i went to an elementary school in langley and i remember looking at past grad classes of long ago. everybody had blond hair and their last names started with vander. and now i find it interesting how we are forgetting all these european cultures and settlers that came to our province and now wash all these people in one generic term as "caucasian".

Originally Posted by duener

Interestingly, in the UK, only the Scots and Welsh act nationalistic, wave flags and sing songs. The English bear the burden of having conquered them and much of the world. I think it's the same problem in BC.

i stop carrying around the Canadian flag when i travel and now i tell everybody i'm from british columbia and i have our provincial flag on my luggage. I'm actually surprised by how many people know where i'm from!

[djmk]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

First off I am of British Isles and European descent, so your assumption is quite off (one would have thought my avitar would have given that one away..., but if you don't believe me im sure some of the other fourmers here who have met me can attest to just how painfully white I actually am.

what are you talking about? your avitar is for the Royal Netherlands Football Association. That lion is a dutch lion and its orange.

[LeftCoaster]

I know, I am part dutch... he assumed I was Chinese simply because I was arguing for recognition of their heritage.

hence why I said "British Isles and European descent".

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by raggedy13

^You have a very egocentric worldview. They don't have a Chinese wardrobe? Do you expect them to be wearing traditional Chinese silk robes or something? Do you walk around in a three piece suit and a bowler hat sporting mutton chops? No? Then a kilt perhaps? Cultures are not static entities. Contemporary Chinese fashion has changed just as British has. To say that jeans, sneakers and a t-shirt are quintessentially British is beyond ignorant. Obviously this logic extends well beyond apparel. The world we live in is not British. Most of the modern conveniences and popular culture we enjoy weren't even invented by the British. This includes contemporary music, fashion, consumer electronics, local housing architecture etc. Immigrants conforming to Canadian cultural norms has nothing to do with British culture and they don't owe the British or British culture any homage whatsoever.

have you never been to surrey? the punjabis and muslims wear their traditional cultural clothing daily

I have seen full on head to toe burkas weekly on 72nd

and most men wear the traditional outfit and the women wear suits and saris

I have seen some older chinese people wearing the what is thought of as chinese gear in china town, those little black shoes and the collarless silky jackets

as for the british - the british are the ones who planned the roads, laid them out, planned the cities, government is based upon the british - lougheed as in the hwy is the name of the british guy who did a lot of the road planning way back in the day

anyway stick with the homegrown native opening