Kill the Gateway Sign,....

[adam]

City hall's limestone should not come at the expense of some other project. There's money to be found/borrowed. The 3.5 million is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

The simple illustration did not do the option full justice. The concept description fully explains the option's qualties:



See the design summary in full here.

I like how it announces the city at each gateway using a common lettering, but incorporates natural elements reflective of each specific gateway into the overall design. I am not a fan of the use of the current city logo, because it automatically makes the gateways dated. They will be passe whenever the city logo gets updated. I think the incorporation of a landmark is a bit tacky. Landmarks should be left to make their own individual statement and not be used as a civic branding device. It imprints too specific of a preception of the city.The bold lettering is more timeless, and the bold font standing on its own invokes a confident city that is not afraid to announce itself to the world. It actually is not unlike the signage for Amsterdam posted earlier in this thread.

hmmm, great response. I appreciate all the detailed info. That does sound interesting in terms of the native plantings.
And I hope you're right about the lettering being bold and attractive.
I still think it's a waste of money though.

[HAMRetrofit]

A minus A does not equal B

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

City hall's limestone should not come at the expense of some other project. There's money to be found/borrowed. The 3.5 million is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

Personally, I hate the saying 'grand scheme of things'. It's a statement without measure. What exactly is a scheme?

To put $3.5 million in perspective it's the yearly taxes on 1,250 homes, such as mine. So I guess, one man's peanut is another man's 1,250 homes in Hamilton........

[DHLawrence]

3.5 million for those signs? Why not glue all the dollar bills together and seal them in acrylic and put those at the edge of town so people know where their money went?

[adam]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

Personally, I hate the saying 'grand scheme of things'. It's a statement without measure. What exactly is a scheme?

To put $3.5 million in perspective it's the yearly taxes on 1,250 homes, such as mine. So I guess, one man's peanut is another man's 1,250 homes in Hamilton........

The perspective of 1 tax year for a low-end property ($2800) is not the same perspective as the new city hall amortized over its lifetime that represents a city with a population of over half a million. Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about the gateway signs.

[markbarbera]

For clarity I must point out that the cost of the gateways has not been finalized. However, one of the design conditions was to minimize construction and maintenance costs. Rest assured when the final cost is presented to council later this year it will be a fraction of the 3.5 million the limestone for city hall will cost.

For an additional cost impact perspective, 3.5 million spread over 180000 Hamilton households equals a little under 20 bucks per household. For half the cost of a single cup of coffee per week per household, we could have limestone and not kill off another project.

[raisethehammer]

Mark...why does option 4 only have 3 sign locations?
None at the QEW/Burlington St area?

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

The perspective of 1 tax year for a low-end property ($2800) is not the same perspective as the new city hall amortized over its lifetime that represents a city with a population of over half a million. Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about the gateway signs.

OK, thanks for refering to my house as low-end. That's much appreciated.

Anytime you'd like a tour of my house and neighbourhood, I'd be happy to provide (PM me) and then you can choose to slag, or not slag, my choice in homes.

If I ended the post with what I'm thinking the moderators would delete, so you can use your imagination as to what I'd say to your face.

[adam]

My apologies, I know for a fact there are many gorgeous homes in Hamilton that are under the average annual property tax.

[FairHamilton]

180,00 households, actually I think that's a projected future number a few years out, isn't it? Like I've said before 3 types of lies; Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics............

Actually, the entire project is $8.5M over budget, $3.5 is only the saving from using concrete on the building (vs. limestone) and aluminium around windows (vs. stainless steel). Never did I say the signs cost $3.5M only if they wanted money to put towards the $3.5M for limestone and stainless they should kill the signs, as I perceive them as having the same value as investing in City Hall.

It was suggested to axe the skating rink over the gateway signs. Since $8.5M is needed I'd say get rid of both. I've skated on City Hall rinks in Scarborough and Kitchener, while nice and enjoyable I could live without.

Add $20 to everyones tax bill, remember this would be in addition to the usual increase.

Perhaps I'm from a different place/generation. I was taught you had a finite budget, and you made choices on what you could buy, and not buy, with that budget. You couldn't have it all, once the money is spent the money is spent, don't go into debt. Perhaps, I expect the same from my elected officials, and not have them treat taxpayers as a bottomless pit whenever they want more $$ for a project.

You want to see a funny look? Walk into a car dealership and start negotiating on the price of a new car. When they ask you about how you'll be financing the purchase, tell them you'll be paying cash. Watch as their jaw drops, they are truly at a loss for words.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

My apologies, I know for a fact there are many gorgeous homes in Hamilton that are under the average annual property tax.

And please keep in mind that taxes in Hamilton are higher than in many other jurisdictions in Ontario, i.e. Toronto's.

I know of homes in Toronto costing 3 times+ the cost of mine, pay less than twice my yearly taxes in Hamilton.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

Mark...why does option 4 only have 3 sign locations?
None at the QEW/Burlington St area?

All of the options only considered 3 sign locations.

There are five locations in total identified as potential gateways. For this gateway project, the scope for all the options being studied was limited to three of the five locations: QEW at Fifty, Highway 403 at Highway 6, and Highway 403 at Alberton. The other two locations (QEW at Burlington/RHVP & Highway 6 at Freelton) were deemed out of scope for all options under consideration, mainly due to space restrictions. Here is the text from the study report explaining the scope limitation that excluded QEW/Burlington and Highway 6 at Freelton form the study:

Site constraints at these sites such as existing MTO signs, width of the road allowance, and sight lines
make the effective use of the sign and landscape type of gateway difficult. Therefore, these sites have
been left outside of the current scope of work. City Urban Design staff are working with Public Works staff
and the Red Hill Project team to determine appropriate sites and designs for possible gateway features in
these two areas
Initial discussions are underway with the Public Works Department to determine if the Freelton water tower
can be painted to serve as a gateway feature for those entering the City from the North on Highway No. 6.
A gateway pedestrian bridge is approved for Site 5, the Q.E.W. and the new Red Hill Creek Parkway
interchange, for those entering the City from Burlington over the Skyway Bridge.

[adam]

FiarHamilton, I'm just the opposite, I could easily live without the gateway signs, but feel a skating rink and beautiful city hall would draw more people to the downtown and help rejuvenate the area. Spend some money on a tourism website and reach a larger audience (internet = gateway to the world)

[raisethehammer]

how stupid...our gateway signs are going to be way the heck out in no-man's land??
people simply don't have hamilton on their radar...the spec had a piece this week about a facebook ad by tourism hamilton that has been shown 1million times this summer....they've had 480 hits. That's pretty bad.

[markbarbera]

The gateway signs are being positioned at the entry points to the municipality. Isn't that really where a city gateway should be? While the 403 at Allerton may seem a bit remote, the Highway 403/6 and QEW/Fifty interchanges are hardly no-man's land...

[raisethehammer]

true enough.... I don't get the assertion that there is 'no room' along the QEW/Red Hill for one.
There's the same empty grass shoulders as every other highway in the area.
We're talking about a sign, not a new airport.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

180,00 households, actually I think that's a projected future number a few years out, isn't it? Like I've said before 3 types of lies; Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics............

The most recent number for households in Hamilton that I could locate is from the 2001 Census, which listed 188,155 households in the city itself. I couldn't find a city-specific statistic in the 2006 Census, just for the Hamilton CMA, which was 266,380. Of course, the Hamilton CMA includes Burlington. So I guess you'd say I wasn't passing on a lie or a damn lie, simply a statistic.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

true enough.... I don't get the assertion that there is 'no room' along the QEW/Red Hill for one.
There's the same empty grass shoulders as every other highway in the area.
We're talking about a sign, not a new airport.

MTO rules are really odd surrounding sightlines, lsize of allowances and content. For example, if the city goes with the first option presented they would have to apply for a special exemption from MTO because it makes use of the City logo, and trademarked logos are a no-no for the MTO.

From what I gathered, the study determined that the pedestrian bridge would be the de-facto gateway for this interchange.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

FiarHamilton, I'm just the opposite, I could easily live without the gateway signs, but feel a skating rink and beautiful city hall would draw more people to the downtown and help rejuvenate the area. Spend some money on a tourism website and reach a larger audience (internet = gateway to the world)

I don't disagree with wanting an skating rink, heck my wife and I would use it, and lack of a close outdoor ice rink was one of the things which made me hesitant about buying a home in Hamilton.

I'm talking about changes to projects that will allow for limestone & stainless as a finish on City Hall. My point is you can't have everything, so some things need to be sacrificed. The fact is, that's life, and it's full of sacrifices.

Maybe there's something other than gateway signs, and a skating rink that can be cancelled/delayed to get limestone on City Hall. I don't know, those were just easy targets. I'm open to other suggestions as well.

But, just saying raise taxes is too easy, and IMHO won't be (shouldn't be) considered. Try writing a letter to The Spec and suggest the city raise taxes to cover the $3.5M for City Hall's limestone & stainless (or for the entire $8.5M). Then see what letters follow, it will show that no politician is going to float that idea. It's not an option.