CFL to Saskatoon?

[swilley]

Originally Posted by Migs

As a matter of fact, recently more people have moved from Saskatoon to Regina than the other way around. Right now Saskatoon sits at about 240K and Regina is at about 210K. Both are growing but it ain't that much of a difference and like I said already, once the new transportation hub gets going over the next few years, the population gap is likely to get smaller. Oh and did I mention the 2Billion dollar expansion to Regina's Coop Upgrader???

Yes, you are right. About 10 more people, WOW - What a stat!! And when did Regina hit about 210k?? Last estimates you guys barely broke the 200k mark. BTW, Saskatoon is sitting at 241,439 and Regina 201,514 - just so you can get your facts straight.

[ReginaGuy]

Honestly, I think it would be cool if Saskatoon got a CFL team. A Regina / Saskatoon rivalry would be the best in the country!

I don't think having two teams in the province would hurt the riders very much. Probably about 90% of the people at each rider game are from Regina and surrounding area, there's probably only a couple thousand that actually drive in from as far as Saskatoon for each game.

But seriously, people need to give up on the idea of the Riders moving to Saskatoon, it's never going to happen. The riders were born in Regina, Regina has always been their home, and Regina will always be their home. Anyone who thinks that they're going to pack up and move just because Saskatoon has slightly more people is crazy.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by swilley

Yes, you are right. About 10 more people, WOW - What a stat!! And when did Regina hit about 210k?? Last estimates you guys barely broke the 200k mark. BTW, Saskatoon is sitting at 241,439 and Regina 201,514 - just so you can get your facts straight.

I was going by the population numbers that Gormely said on the radio this morning.

And even if it is 10more people, there are still more coming here than going there. That could change or it could continue, either way both cities are booming which is great news for this province. That said, personally I think Saskatoon should go for a minorleague baseball team as Hopson pretty much put a nail in Saskatoon's CFL dreams.

[Chaps]

Originally Posted by swilley

Yes, you are right. About 10 more people, WOW - What a stat!! And when did Regina hit about 210k?? Last estimates you guys barely broke the 200k mark. BTW, Saskatoon is sitting at 241,439 and Regina 201,514 - just so you can get your facts straight.

Where are those numbers from? I hadn't even realized Regina broke the 200k mark yet.

I thought Saskatoon was at about 235k and Regina about 193k'ish.

[Migs]

If I can quote my buddy Stephen Larose from another forum........

Stephen Larose wrote:

Now that we've all had our little debate, here's why we've spent the last day arguing about nothing:

The University of Saskatchewan would relocate to Regina before the Riders move to Saskatoon. Here's why this story is a blizzard of bull feathers.

1. The guy who's the Roughriders' silent Partner is Paul Hill. One person who posted here asked, 'who's Paul Hill?" You don't do anything in Regina without Paul Hill noticing. He owns most of the buildings in downtown Regina, including the McCalumn Hill towers. Through the Harvard Group of Companies, he's to Regina what the Reichmans are to Toronto real estate or Donald Trump is to New York's. He keeps a pretty low profile, but lets his money do the talking.

The last time the Riders' radio rights went for bidding, his radio network (Harvard Broadcasting -- CKRM/WOLF 104.9/LITE92) made a bid for the rights with an an obscene amount of money -- by far the richest radio contract in CFL history. And it was paid for up front.

Paul Hill is also a member of the Roughriders' board of directors.(Somebody correct me on this if I'm wrong, but one could say Hill actually has two votes on th Rider Powers that Be -- Tom "Mr. Lottery" Shepherd is also president of Dundee Developments, a real-estate home building company that's part of the Hill Group).

2. In comparison there has never been a Saskatoon businessman on the Riders' board of director. For the most part, the road between the Riders and Saskatoon has been a one-way street -- during the Ford and Shivers years the Riders tried to make inroads into Saskatoon's business community and found that the businessmen were, for the most part, uninterested. There may be an expense, for example, for moving everything to Saskatoon for training camp, but if there was sufficient corporate interest in Saskatoon, they would find the way to pay for training camp in the city every year. There isn't that support.

2a. A source told me during the 1990s that the Riders had sold fewer than 2000 season tickets from Saskatoon. Judging from that level of support, anybody honestly think that the Riders would have survived during the late 1990s if they were based in Saskatoon?

3. (And watch the CJME Brigade come out of the woodwork on this ...) John Gormley is in ratings trouble. He's not likely to get canned from Rawlco radio (he's also their in-house legal guy), but his show isn't the big draw he says it is.
Last month, when there was that debate over the Liquor and Gaming Commission pulling copies of Prairie Dog and Planet S from the liquor stores, a guy in the industry told me that 'there's one reason why Gormley's been going on for two days about this -- you guys (Planet S/Prairie Dog) reach more advertisers than he does. ' The source claimed that the latest round of Arbitrons (the Canadian radio ratings) showed that Gormley's ratings were far behind other radio stations in Regina (Harvard's Wolf 104.9 was ahead with a 26 rating, Harvard's RM was next, then Rawlco's Z99 and Jack kind of far back, with Gormley's show pulling in an 8.6 to 9 per cent share). Advertisers know this, and Gormley's got to get listeners.

4. Rawlco is the competing radio network in Saskatchewan. For its credibility on all things Roughrider, I give you two words. Drew Remeda.

In reality Gormley needs something to boost his show. So, he's talking about the Riders. His source, if it exists, probably hasn't got as much as a fully fleshed out idea. in comparison, Bill Hunter's harebrained scheme to move the Blues to Saskatoon in 1982 looks as meticulously planned as Operation Overlord by comparison.

If I'm Jim Hopson, I would want Gormley to go on the air with either an apology or a mouth full of shaving cream because all this debate is going to do is create a Regina/Saskatoon rivalry that's going to create a lot of hard feelings, and Regina/Saskatoon rivalry is going to hurt the Riders in the long term. I wouldn't surprise me if Shepherd and Hill are having some planning sessions for a new Bomber-stadium-style complex or major Taylor Field redevelopment to be done by training camp, if not by the AGM. But Paul Hill has a lot more credibility about this than anybody John Gormley has talked to. I would bet that the guy or guys who probably used half the napkins at the Saskatoon Fudrukker's to come up with this proposal , five years ago, wouldn't have gone to a Rider game unless at gunpoint.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Chaps

Where are those numbers from? I hadn't even realized Regina broke the 200k mark yet.

I thought Saskatoon was at about 235k and Regina about 193k'ish.

Swilley is correct!

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepu...00/t013_en.htm

[Chaps]

Originally Posted by Migs

Swilley is correct!

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepu...00/t013_en.htm

Cool! I had no idea we broke the 200k barrier!

[Stephen LaRose]

Originally Posted by Migs

If I can quote my buddy Stephen Larose from another forum........

1. I didn't know I was your buddy.

2. Check out the Iluyshin Il-2 Stormovik yet? ;-)

3. I forgot to add this:

Anyone who seriously think Saskatoon's civic and business community could pull this of should think of two words: 2007 Universiade.

[swilley]

Originally Posted by Migs

Swilley is correct!

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepu...00/t013_en.htm

Thanks for quoting, saves me about five minutes..

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Stephen LaRose

1. I didn't know I was your buddy.

2. Check out the Iluyshin Il-2 Stormovik yet? ;-)

3. I forgot to add this:

Anyone who seriously think Saskatoon's civic and business community could pull this of should think of two words: 2007 Universiade.

Yeah I consider everyone that didn't want to run my out of town for my Shivers tirades as buddie's

And yeah I sure did, I've done alot of research the past couple years on WW2 Russian aircraft. Love the 'flying tank'...kinda like the modern version of the A-10

[Rob D]

Originally Posted by Migs

Actually I've lived in Calgary, Edmonton, Minneapolis (for a year), Saskatoon, and Regina. Loved Minneapolis the most. Saskatoon has about 30K more people than Regina so if you wanna call Saskatoon a 'big city' then so is Regina. And how come more people are moving from Saskatoon to Regina than the opposite???

But why are more people from everywhere else moving to Saskatoon than to Regina. It's rate of growth is faster than Regina's and has been for many years. It's only been 20 or so years since Saskatoon equaled Regina's population and now there are closer to 40,000 more people in the Saskatoon CMA than in the Regina CMA. 2007 StatCan estimates - Saskatoon 241,000 - Regina 201,000. What are your sources that tell you that more people from Saskatoon are moving to Regina than vice versa?

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by macca

Welp, I'm done with this thread.

I felt the same way, but chose to enjoy myself before being completely turned off.

One never knows how far a discussion can go...or what attitudes might prevail.

A societal adventure if you will.

[CCF]

Originally Posted by SASKFTW

I felt the same way, but chose to enjoy myself before being completely turned off.

One never knows how far a discussion can go...or what attitudes might prevail.

A societal adventure if you will.

I think it has remained fairly civil thus far.

That's an accomplishment in its own right!

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by CCF

I think it has remained fairly civil thus far.

That's an accomplishment in its own right!

Civil? We've had better examples of civil discussions...this is SSP.

Obviously I accept some responsibility for fanning the flames. I find difficulty discussing topics with those who can't put their emotions aside, or at least acknowledge their weaknesses and focus their thoughts using objective reasoning, logic, and some imagination (hence my absurd request for a photo of Migs' hat ).

But then again I don't subscribe to the Riderfan school of thought, which is difficult to define but I trust you understand where I am coming from. I am not a member of www.Riderfans.com , but after seeing the thread created in that forum and subsequent cross postings on SSP I am thankful towards SSP members who chose to moderate their responses.

To sum up, I dislike threads comprised of bent, negative, emotion based responses which typically lack useful substance. I absorb and participate as a SSP member purely for substance, with a dash of emotion (images are great for that and also first hand experiences).

But hey, everyone has to learn to accept the reality that is our internet...all are welcome, some contribute, some take note, and some disrupt.

Additionally, a little chaos every now and again is probably good for us in some unknown way...

[SHOFEAR]

Honest question....In the last, say, 25 years, how many of those years did the riders make money...or break even?

it can't be that many and I don't see how dividing that market in two would be of any benefit to the rest of the league. Yeah, they'd gain new fans, but the split of fan and coorporate support would be devastating.

Then again, this is the CFL, and if the Gliebermans were allowed to run three franchises into the ground anything can happen.

[CCF]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

Honest question....In the last, say, 25 years, how many of those years did the riders make money...or break even?

it can't be that many and I don't see how dividing that market in two would be of any benefit to the rest of the league. Yeah, they'd gain new fans, but the split of fan and coorporate support would be devastating.

Then again, this is the CFL, and if the Gliebermans were allowed to run three franchises into the ground anything can happen.

Hahah indeed. But yes you are right on all accounts. I would have assumed the Riders would have say over putting another team in the market, similar to the Toronto/Ottawa/Buffalo in the NHL.

[Echoes]

Well, I for one am surprised that this discussion didn't get nastier than it did. It seems that the dust has settled on this debate, at least for the night.

Now, we can keep steering this thread in the direction it's going in: another lovely Saskatoon/Regina pissing match or we can reserve it for a civil discussion of the news item that swilley first posted, as well as any (inevitable) future developments. Yes, that means leaving the emotion and hometown boosterism out of this chit-chat.

Here is what is fact: Some Saskatoon based businesspeople (likely riding the wave of prosperity that SK has been enjoying) have a dream for Saskatoon which may involve CFL ambitions. Nobody should sniff at people who like to dream a little.

Here's what everyone on SSP (both Saskatonians and Reginans) seem to agree on: The Riders aren't going anywhere. No Saskatoon forumer has disputed that. I think that we (S'toon) would view an attempt to steal the Riders from Regina as equally hairbrained a scheme as, well, the rest of Canada would think.

The Roughriders aren't goin anywhere. THAT, by majority opinion, has been established.

But, do any of us really have any solid stats on if two CFL franchises could survive in Sask? Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. If Saskatoon has any CFL hopes, it lies with an expansion team. Yes, even that seems far fetched but a dream has to be born somewhere.

This entire discussion is relying mostly on a short news blurb on a slow news day. We don't know the real intentions, motives or visions of these anonymous Saskatoon businesspeople, so let's not condemn them or laugh them off the stage. Yet. We all know that the media can contort anything to make it a hot/controversial topic. To date, not one of these businesspeople has personally come forward and said, "Yup, we're launching a coup and we're gonna nab the Roughriders from Regina!" So let's not offendedly treat these people like that is what they said. That's what the media spun it into.

Here's why I am pleased by knowing there is a group of people merely looking into the possibilities/potential for Saskatoon:

-It gets the ball rolling for something. It prompts discussion about what Saskatoon is lacking in and what our future desires and ambtions are.

-These businesspeople appear to be (wealthy) proponents of Saskatoon who want to continue to see the city fluorish and prosper. Will their efforts result in a CFL team? Chances are slim, but never say never. What is most likely is that their efforts will, eventually, result in something. They have money, they have hometown pride, and they want to throw it at something. If not a football stadium/CFL team, perhaps a baseball stadium, a downtown arena or other major investments in our city?

My belief is that something good will come of us. I don't know exactly what or when, but I'm excited that someone is dreaming big for Saskatoon.

Whatever comes of this, I hope it can solidify a provincial unity/pride, not divide us along city lines. The Saskatoon/Regina rivalry is childish, frivolous and it disgusts me.

Now, I've ranted much too long. I'm tired, drunk, and need to go to bed.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by Country

Well, I for one am surprised that this discussion didn't get nastier than it did. It seems that the dust has settled on this debate, at least for the night.

Now, we can keep steering this thread in the direction it's going in: another lovely Saskatoon/Regina pissing match or we can reserve it for a civil discussion of the news item that swilley first posted, as well as any (inevitable) future developments. Yes, that means leaving the emotion and hometown boosterism out of this chit-chat.

Here is what is fact: Some Saskatoon based businesspeople (likely riding the wave of prosperity that SK has been enjoying) have a dream for Saskatoon which may involve CFL ambitions. Nobody should sniff at people who like to dream a little.

Here's what everyone on SSP (both Saskatonians and Reginans) seem to agree on: The Riders aren't going anywhere. No Saskatoon forumer has disputed that. I think that we (S'toon) would view an attempt to steal the Riders from Regina as equally hairbrained a scheme as, well, the rest of Canada would think.

The Roughriders aren't goin anywhere. THAT, by majority opinion, has been established.

But, do any of us really have any solid stats on if two CFL franchises could survive in Sask? Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. If Saskatoon has any CFL hopes, it lies with an expansion team. Yes, even that seems far fetched but a dream has to be born somewhere.

This entire discussion is relying mostly on a short news blurb on a slow news day. We don't know the real intentions, motives or visions of these anonymous Saskatoon businesspeople, so let's not condemn them or laugh them off the stage. Yet. We all know that the media can contort anything to make it a hot/controversial topic. To date, not one of these businesspeople has personally come forward and said, "Yup, we're launching a coup and we're gonna nab the Roughriders from Regina!" So let's not offendedly treat these people like that is what they said. That's what the media spun it into.

Here's why I am pleased by knowing there is a group of people merely looking into the possibilities/potential for Saskatoon:

-It gets the ball rolling for something. It prompts discussion about what Saskatoon is lacking in and what our future desires and ambtions are.

-These businesspeople appear to be (wealthy) proponents of Saskatoon who want to continue to see the city fluorish and prosper. Will their efforts result in a CFL team? Chances are slim, but never say never. What is most likely is that their efforts will, eventually, result in something. They have money, they have hometown pride, and they want to throw it at something. If not a football stadium/CFL team, perhaps a baseball stadium, a downtown arena or other major investments in our city?

My belief is that something good will come of us. I don't know exactly what or when, but I'm excited that someone is dreaming big for Saskatoon.

Whatever comes of this, I hope it can solidify a provincial unity/pride, not divide us along city lines. The Saskatoon/Regina rivalry is childish, frivolous and it disgusts me.

Now, I've ranted much too long. I'm tired, drunk, and need to go to bed.

I've sat on the fence from the moment this thread was started. Waiting for the right or wrong? moment to jump in. This is as good as any. You summed up my thoughts almost to the letter. Saskatoon doesn't want the Riders but maybe we want our own.

Here is a suggestion. The SASKATOON BERRIES! nice ring eh?

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Country

Well, I for one am surprised that this discussion didn't get nastier than it did. It seems that the dust has settled on this debate, at least for the night.

Now, we can keep steering this thread in the direction it's going in: another lovely Saskatoon/Regina pissing match or we can reserve it for a civil discussion of the news item that swilley first posted, as well as any (inevitable) future developments. Yes, that means leaving the emotion and hometown boosterism out of this chit-chat.

Here is what is fact: Some Saskatoon based businesspeople (likely riding the wave of prosperity that SK has been enjoying) have a dream for Saskatoon which may involve CFL ambitions. Nobody should sniff at people who like to dream a little.

Here's what everyone on SSP (both Saskatonians and Reginans) seem to agree on: The Riders aren't going anywhere. No Saskatoon forumer has disputed that. I think that we (S'toon) would view an attempt to steal the Riders from Regina as equally hairbrained a scheme as, well, the rest of Canada would think.

The Roughriders aren't goin anywhere. THAT, by majority opinion, has been established.

But, do any of us really have any solid stats on if two CFL franchises could survive in Sask? Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. If Saskatoon has any CFL hopes, it lies with an expansion team. Yes, even that seems far fetched but a dream has to be born somewhere.

This entire discussion is relying mostly on a short news blurb on a slow news day. We don't know the real intentions, motives or visions of these anonymous Saskatoon businesspeople, so let's not condemn them or laugh them off the stage. Yet. We all know that the media can contort anything to make it a hot/controversial topic. To date, not one of these businesspeople has personally come forward and said, "Yup, we're launching a coup and we're gonna nab the Roughriders from Regina!" So let's not offendedly treat these people like that is what they said. That's what the media spun it into.

Here's why I am pleased by knowing there is a group of people merely looking into the possibilities/potential for Saskatoon:

-It gets the ball rolling for something. It prompts discussion about what Saskatoon is lacking in and what our future desires and ambtions are.

-These businesspeople appear to be (wealthy) proponents of Saskatoon who want to continue to see the city fluorish and prosper. Will their efforts result in a CFL team? Chances are slim, but never say never. What is most likely is that their efforts will, eventually, result in something. They have money, they have hometown pride, and they want to throw it at something. If not a football stadium/CFL team, perhaps a baseball stadium, a downtown arena or other major investments in our city?

My belief is that something good will come of us. I don't know exactly what or when, but I'm excited that someone is dreaming big for Saskatoon.

Whatever comes of this, I hope it can solidify a provincial unity/pride, not divide us along city lines. The Saskatoon/Regina rivalry is childish, frivolous and it disgusts me.

Now, I've ranted much too long. I'm tired, drunk, and need to go to bed.

And you can thank these Saskatoon business folks for putting gas on the fire.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

I've sat on the fence from the moment this thread was started. Waiting for the right or wrong? moment to jump in. This is as good as any. You summed up my thoughts almost to the letter. Saskatoon doesn't want the Riders but maybe we want our own.

Here is a suggestion. The SASKATOON BERRIES! nice ring eh?

Actually you are wrong. It was the intention of this 'Business Group' to relocate the Riders to Saskatoon (Gormely said it himself yesterday as well as the dude from the Stoon Chamber of Commerce). Unfortunately for you guys, CEO of the Riders Jim Hopson made them look like idiots for not actually involving the Riders (or even asking) in any such endeavor. Once again, Saskatoon gets egg on its face (ie downtown Casino, Universiade, Saskplace closer to Warman than downtown Saskatoon). Some people never learn.

http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarp...a406b8&k=57623

Sorry, But CFL Is Out Of Our League

Doug McConachie, The StarPhoenix
Published: Friday, February 15, 2008

I'm dumbfounded; in total disbelief.

A disclosure Thursday by radio talk show host John Gormley that a group of local business people want to build a 32,000-seat state-of-the-art stadium to attract the Saskatchewan Roughriders to Saskatoon, or land a CFL expansion team, is a sure indication the winter has gone too long. Somebody has severe frostbite between the ears.

Such a far-flung idea should at least be based on a demonstrated need or a hope of reality. Bill Hunter believed he could attract the St. Louis Blues to Saskatoon back in the 1980s. A new NHL franchise in Canada makes a hell of a lot more sense than a CFL franchise in Saskatoon.

Before anyone takes this anonymous group seriously, consider the words of Saskatchewan Roughriders president and chief executive officer Jim Hopson.

He says the Riders survive because of provincewide support. "If we just had to rely on Regina, we wouldn't."

Game, set and match.

If the recent Grey Cup victory is what's driving this grand plan, these unidentified business people better put their ideas on hold for a decade or two. The Green and White average one Cup victory every two decades or so.

If a string of sellouts at Mosaic Stadium is what's behind the euphoria, great. But here's a sober second thought: The Riders didn't have continual sellouts in the 1990s (except for Labour Day) and there haven't been abundant sellouts this decade either. It doesn't seem long ago when the Riders had to hold a telethon to keep the club alive. Remember, too, the wheat-for-tickets promotion?

It wasn't more than a year or two ago when the Riders couldn't balance their books and were turning to handouts from the provincial government. There were no printing presses spewing out money under the stands at Taylor Field. There still aren't.

To relocate the Riders to Saskatoon -- for more than a game a season -- would be divisive. It would split the fan base of the province to a point where much of the traditional Rider support would vanish within a couple of seasons. Hopson has already announced there are plans afoot to expand Mosaic Stadium. At best, a 32,000-seat stadium in Saskatoon might be nothing more than a saw-off with the capacity in Regina.

If the Riders are not the prime tenants of a new stadium in Saskatoon, who is? Neither the University of Saskatchewan Huskies, who can't fill Griffiths Stadium, nor the Saskatoon Hilltops, who despite their tradition of success can't pack Gordie Howe Bowl, are going to make a dent in a 32,000-seat park. High school football could use a new stadium. But 32,000 seats? Give your head a shake.

While the idea of a CFL expansion franchise is intriguing, it's also unlikely. Edmonton and Calgary both have populations of one million-plus to support their clubs. With the exception of the games between the two, they can't fill either of their stadiums for games against other CFL teams.

If you divided Saskatchewan in half and said everybody north of Davidson supported Saskatoon's team and those in the south backed the Riders, both clubs would be dead in the water. Corporations and businesses who support the Riders today would have to divide their loyalties and their cash. The Riders' touchdown lottery and the Plaza of Honour would die a slow death.

Those desiring a Saskatoon franchise need a refresher course in CFL history. Ottawa has been in and out of the league. Baltimore, Shreveport and Las Vegas came and went. Halifax has wanted a team for years and apparently not one CFL governor has shown an iota of interest. In any given year Toronto, Hamilton, Montreal, Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, Calgary and B.C. have experienced attendance problems.

And there's the little intangible called money to build a facility. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers are talking $150 million for a bare-bones facility. Does anything more need be said?

Go ahead, dream. And if it all comes to pass, let's call the team the Saskatoon Rough Riders before Ottawa gets back in.