Streetcar revival closer

[econgrad]

How about variety? Old street cars mixed with newer ones? Or, would that seem too strange? Either way, both would be awesome....

[wburg]

dalinsac: If you mean the really old wooden ones, like this:

Most of the old wooden cars date from the 19th century: some were even converted from horse-drawn streetcars used in the 1870s. Car 35, the restored former Sacramento car that they break out for special events, is such a car:

It started out as a single-truck car, was expanded to a double-truck half-open car (called a "California car") in PG&E's shops on 28th and N Street, then made into an enclosed car for one-man operation. After the local streetcar system closed, it went to San Jose and was refurbished as an open car before being returned to Sacramento.

And yeah, those cars would work best as tourist-drawing special attractions for peak tourist season and peak recreational travel times, like the Jazz Festival, Gold Rush Days, Rivercats games, etcetera.

How about variety? Old street cars mixed with newer ones? Or, would that seem too strange? Either way, both would be awesome....

Aesthetically I don't have a personal objection to it, but there are economic reasons why it wouldn't be such a good idea.

Two different streetcar types means two entirely different sets of parts sources, maintenance schedules, training procedures for operators and maintenance staff, etcetera. Sticking to a single type (for day-to-day operation) would minimize maintenance overhead.

San Francisco runs both modern and historic equipment, but generally not on the same line.

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by wburg

dalinsac: If you mean the really old wooden ones, like this:

Most of the old wooden cars date from the 19th century: some were even converted from horse-drawn streetcars used in the 1870s. Car 35, the restored former Sacramento car that they break out for special events, is such a car:

It started out as a single-truck car, was expanded to a double-truck half-open car (called a "California car") in PG&E's shops on 28th and N Street, then made into an enclosed car for one-man operation. After the local streetcar system closed, it went to San Jose and was refurbished as an open car before being returned to Sacramento.

And yeah, those cars would work best as tourist-drawing special attractions for peak tourist season and peak recreational travel times, like the Jazz Festival, Gold Rush Days, Rivercats games, etcetera.



Aesthetically I don't have a personal objection to it, but there are economic reasons why it wouldn't be such a good idea.

Two different streetcar types means two entirely different sets of parts sources, maintenance schedules, training procedures for operators and maintenance staff, etcetera. Sticking to a single type (for day-to-day operation) would minimize maintenance overhead.

San Francisco runs both modern and historic equipment, but generally not on the same line.

wburg can you explain how the older cars (especially those historic cars like car 35), or the replica cars are able to comply with the ADA act?


When i lived in Chicago I was amazed how that city avoids ADA lawsuits. Every 'El" station isn't ADA accessible. I wonder how the CTA avoids being sued?

[wburg]

Originally Posted by urban_encounter

wburg can you explain how the older cars (especially those historic cars like car 35), or the replica cars are able to comply with the ADA act?

When i lived in Chicago I was amazed how that city avoids ADA lawsuits. Every 'El" station isn't ADA accessible. I wonder how the CTA avoids being sued?

The Gomaco replica cars are designed to be ADA compliant (one of their other advantages.) They use ramps at stops, like LRVs do, with trapdoors to cover the stairs.

Historic cars don't have to comply with ADA requirements because they are historic vehicles, specifically exempt from code. If the aisles are wide enough and they are the same height as a replica car they can be made ADA compatible. ADA compliance are why the F Muni line runs buses on Market Street: the historic cars aren't ADA accessible, but the buses are, so it provides replacement service.

Not sure about Chicago. I do know that they are upgrading some of the El stations as time goes on to enhance ADA accessibility.

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by wburg

The Gomaco replica cars are designed to be ADA compliant (one of their other advantages.) They use ramps at stops, like LRVs do, with trapdoors to cover the stairs.

Historic cars don't have to comply with ADA requirements because they are historic vehicles, specifically exempt from code. If the aisles are wide enough and they are the same height as a replica car they can be made ADA compatible. ADA compliance are why the F Muni line runs buses on Market Street: the historic cars aren't ADA accessible, but the buses are, so it provides replacement service.

Not sure about Chicago. I do know that they are upgrading some of the El stations as time goes on to enhance ADA accessibility.

Thanks for clarification; and your right about CTA going gang buster on station improvements. Maybe that's what's behind the construction frenzy.

I wonder if a combination of origional historic cars and new replicas might not be the best option for Sacramento, considering the cost factor and also to take into account that by having at least some new replica cars people with disabilities (and accessibility issues) would have the option of catching a car with a chair lift (even if they have to wait a couple of minutes??)

[wburg]

The Sacramento/West Sacramento streetcar project is progressing. The current plan is to have a 2.5 mile starter route from West Sacramento's city hall up West Capitol, over the Tower Bridge onto Capitol, using RT Light Rail right of way (ROW) up 7th and 8th Street, down K Street, then circling around the Convention Center.

While many want the line to go farther, this is a starter route that is practical with the budget they have in mind, and one that is easy to expand once it is up and running. Using half a mile of Light Rail ROW on K Street actually helps extend things an extra half-mile while staying in budget.

The budget is going up a bit, from $50 million to $70 million, because it looks like they're going to use modern cars. They will make ADA compliance easier, make compatibility with existing light rail ROW simpler, and be closer to electeds' and disabled transit advocates' wishes for low-floor cars. Of course, this doesn't rule out the future inclusion of historic or replica cars.

The current plan is to have streetcars running by 2012-2013.

The basic operating assumptions are: 15 minute headways, 10 minutes during lunch hour. 10 stops. 22-minute end-to-end travel time. $1 fare. Operating cost: $3.55 million. Cars will be stored and maintained at Regional Transit's facility at Swanston. Extra provision for the post-game "pulse" at Raley Field will be provided by parking extra cars at a short spur in front of Raley Field. That spur can later become the beginning of an extension into the Triangle area of West Sacramento.

The funding for the $70 million capital cost will come from tax increment financing, parking revenues, a benefits assessment district, West Sacramento's sales tax, and private sponsorships. Operations costs will be covered by advertising, a hotel assessment, parking revenues, West Sacramento sales tax, reduced cost for equivalent bus service, and about 20% farebox recovery.

Ownership of the streetcar line is planned as a joint powers authority between Sacramento and West Sacramento, contracting to Regional Transit for operation and maintenance.

[doriankage]

Originally Posted by wburg

The Sacramento/West Sacramento streetcar project is progressing. The current plan is to have a 2.5 mile starter route from West Sacramento's city hall up West Capitol, over the Tower Bridge onto Capitol, using RT Light Rail right of way (ROW) up 7th and 8th Street, down K Street, then circling around the Convention Center.

While many want the line to go farther, this is a starter route that is practical with the budget they have in mind, and one that is easy to expand once it is up and running. Using half a mile of Light Rail ROW on K Street actually helps extend things an extra half-mile while staying in budget.

The budget is going up a bit, from $50 million to $70 million, because it looks like they're going to use modern cars. They will make ADA compliance easier, make compatibility with existing light rail ROW simpler, and be closer to electeds' and disabled transit advocates' wishes for low-floor cars. Of course, this doesn't rule out the future inclusion of historic or replica cars.

The current plan is to have streetcars running by 2012-2013.

The basic operating assumptions are: 15 minute headways, 10 minutes during lunch hour. 10 stops. 22-minute end-to-end travel time. $1 fare. Operating cost: $3.55 million. Cars will be stored and maintained at Regional Transit's facility at Swanston. Extra provision for the post-game "pulse" at Raley Field will be provided by parking extra cars at a short spur in front of Raley Field. That spur can later become the beginning of an extension into the Triangle area of West Sacramento.

The funding for the $70 million capital cost will come from tax increment financing, parking revenues, a benefits assessment district, West Sacramento's sales tax, and private sponsorships. Operations costs will be covered by advertising, a hotel assessment, parking revenues, West Sacramento sales tax, reduced cost for equivalent bus service, and about 20% farebox recovery.

Ownership of the streetcar line is planned as a joint powers authority between Sacramento and West Sacramento, contracting to Regional Transit for operation and maintenance.

This is awesome news people!
Great Great news!

[ozone]

The current plan is to have streetcars running by 2012-2013.

Say that is good news. It's going to up and running at around the time the world is coming to an end.

[TowerDistrict]

Yeah by 2013 people will just fly over the river on jetpacks and hoverboards... why bother?

[ozone]

Originally Posted by TowerDistrict

Yeah by 2013 people will just fly over the river on jetpacks and hoverboards... why bother?

exactamundo! Jesus in a G-string, why do we have to wait so long to get to the West Sacramento City Hall? I don't think I can wait. Fresno plans to have their streetcar up and runing by 2011

[wburg]

I understand your enthusiasm, ozone, but these things take time. If you've got $70 million burning a hole in your pocket that you want to chip in I'm sure they could get started faster, but they don't quite have it yet.

Where'd you hear 2011 for Fresno? Last time I heard, they had pooh-poohed the idea in favor of a trollop bus instead, to "prove the concept."

[ltsmotorsport]

Fresno needs people in their downtown before they think of doing anything like a streetcar.

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by wburg

The Sacramento/West Sacramento streetcar project is progressing. The current plan is to have a 2.5 mile starter route from West Sacramento's city hall up West Capitol, over the Tower Bridge onto Capitol, using RT Light Rail right of way (ROW) up 7th and 8th Street, down K Street, then circling around the Convention Center.

While many want the line to go farther, this is a starter route that is practical with the budget they have in mind, and one that is easy to expand once it is up and running. Using half a mile of Light Rail ROW on K Street actually helps extend things an extra half-mile while staying in budget.

The budget is going up a bit, from $50 million to $70 million, because it looks like they're going to use modern cars. They will make ADA compliance easier, make compatibility with existing light rail ROW simpler, and be closer to electeds' and disabled transit advocates' wishes for low-floor cars. Of course, this doesn't rule out the future inclusion of historic or replica cars.

The current plan is to have streetcars running by 2012-2013.

The basic operating assumptions are: 15 minute headways, 10 minutes during lunch hour. 10 stops. 22-minute end-to-end travel time. $1 fare. Operating cost: $3.55 million. Cars will be stored and maintained at Regional Transit's facility at Swanston. Extra provision for the post-game "pulse" at Raley Field will be provided by parking extra cars at a short spur in front of Raley Field. That spur can later become the beginning of an extension into the Triangle area of West Sacramento.

The funding for the $70 million capital cost will come from tax increment financing, parking revenues, a benefits assessment district, West Sacramento's sales tax, and private sponsorships. Operations costs will be covered by advertising, a hotel assessment, parking revenues, West Sacramento sales tax, reduced cost for equivalent bus service, and about 20% farebox recovery.

Ownership of the streetcar line is planned as a joint powers authority between Sacramento and West Sacramento, contracting to Regional Transit for operation and maintenance.

I thinnk this is good news, but I would sure like to see this thing go down as far as 28th street so as to service midtown.

But like you said wburg it's a start...

I'm happy about the possibility of using low floor model trolley cars.



on another note

Any chance we may one day see the Light Rail go to a low floor model as well; like Santa Clara did? I would love to see all the concrete access platforms removed along K street and around the city.

[TowerDistrict]

Originally Posted by urban_encounter

on another note

Any chance we may one day see the Light Rail go to a low floor model as well; like Santa Clara did? I would love to see all the concrete access platforms removed along K street and around the city.

Is that even possible? That would be fantastic.

In my neighborhood, the Meadowview bound kids use those platforms to jump into our backyards. Some of the poorest design ever... They have security watching the platform constantly now... and that can't be cheap.

[wburg]

Replacing the entire fleet of LRVs would be expensive indeed. Put it this way--would you rather see a fleet upgrade and the ramps eliminated, or the DNA line completed?

Here's a link to a story about Fresno's plans, which appear to be sidetracked, because their city council can't tell a streetcar from a bus:

http://tinyurl.com/2g38cx

The whole point of the starter line is to expand, and because costs and time is a lot less for streetcars than for LRVs, expansion is comparatively easy and quick. Portland started their first line extension before they even completed the starter segment. The big obstacle, as I mentioned before, is the UP tracks, but if they can make use of the Bee Bridge that obstacle can be leapt. There would need to be some sort of comparable bridge on the northern edge of town...that could be more difficult.

[Web]

Originally Posted by TowerDistrict

Is that even possible? That would be fantastic.

In my neighborhood, the Meadowview bound kids use those platforms to jump into our backyards. Some of the poorest design ever... They have security watching the platform constantly now... and that can't be cheap.

from the rent a cop world its a lot cheaper than transit police.

i say camera up the place.......crackdown once a month and it will disappear in a while

[FresnoFacts]

Originally Posted by ltsmotorsport

Fresno needs people in their downtown before they think of doing anything like a streetcar.

And that is currently happening.

So far the Vagabond Lofts in downtown Fresno are open. H Street Lofts will open later this year. The old Security Bank tower now has condos on its top floors.

Groundbreaking is next month for the new mixed used development replacing the convention center parking lot. It will include almost 200 housing units.

[FresnoFacts]

Originally Posted by wburg

Here's a link to a story about Fresno's plans, which appear to be sidetracked, because their city council can't tell a streetcar from a bus:

That linked article is from last year.

Most recently the Fresno County Council of Goverments authorized the streetcar feasibility study.

[Majin]

FresnoFacts

[wburg]

From the Friends of Light Rail & Transit E-Report:

FLRT eReport
News Briefs for June 2008


West Sacramento City Council Supports Streetcar
Streetcar operations was one of the preferred purposes for spending general revenues from a West Sacramento sales tax. At their meeting of June 4, the West Sacramento city council directed staff to prepare a ballot measure asking West Sacramento voters to extend the portion of the Measure K sales tax that is scheduled to expire in 2013. The council expressed strong support for an advisory measure that would state a preference for spending the revenues on streetcar operations and other transportation improvements, and strengthening levees for flood protection. The council is expected to take action at their next meeting that would place this measure on the November 2008 ballot. If approved by the voters, this would provide a critical piece of the funding picture for the proposed Downtown/Riverfront Streetcar project, a cooperative effort of the cities of Sacramento and West Sacramento, the Yolo County Transportation District, and Sacramento Regional Transit.