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  #41  
Old Posted May 9, 2007, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by LAMetroGuy View Post
I like this version better, I like glass... but either is fine.

While I don't dislike any of the FIDM designs, I think that since Los Angeles in general is a haven for contemporary art, I think that some of it's buildings should reflect that.

This is all my opinion of course.
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  #42  
Old Posted May 9, 2007, 2:40 AM
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Just for the record, not all of Frank Gehry's work appeals to me. However, WDCH is such a beauty.
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  #43  
Old Posted May 9, 2007, 6:18 AM
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there is a typo on the High school, you have it listed as LAPD High school, Its LAUSD.
Ha! I fixed that one finally. Good catch. I can't believe I wrote it that way
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  #44  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 2:46 AM
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I'm glad there are lists of proposed new projs for the hood, & that they're kept up to date. But because of projs like Concerto, which has come to a standstill even after ground was broken, or the Medallion, which so far has missed several announced start up dates, I find myself not looking too closely at any proposal unless I'm sure it's a done deal.

What I do like to keep a close eye on are things like what the person from Forest City says about her co's projs in LA, which includes the met lofts & metro417. If most devlprs can make a similar claim----about their projs in LA being greeted with success----then proposed new bldgs like FIDM's tower, or Park fifth, or many of the other projs on colemonkee's or anyone else's list, are more likely to become reality. And that's when I start taking them seriously & wanna get into the details, such as what they'll look like, or how tall they'll be, or whether they'll have ground floor stores or not.


Urban Pioneers Need New Places to Explore

Cities must look beyond first wave of residents to attract more people to redeveloping cores

By KEELEY WEBSTER
CREJ Staff Writer
APRIL 30, 2007

As far back as most Angelenos can remember, downtown Los Angeles has been a business center, not a place that people lived. Many forget, however, that downtown Los Angeles had vibrant residential neighborhoods and was the center of the city's nightlife prior to World War II. After the war, the soldiers started families and embraced the hope of single-family homeownership that the region's freeway system made possible. As a result, the suburbanization of Los Angeles took off and downtown became a mostly nine-to-five environment, mirroring a long-term national trend that hollowed out downtown residential populations.

That trend is reversing itself today as two-thirds of the nation's largest and most underdeveloped downtowns have growing residential populations of urban pioneers as reflected in the downtown redevelopment in San Diego, Sacramento and Los Angeles. Once again, the demand for a better quality of life has pushed the pendulum of residential demand from "drivable suburbanism" to "walkable urbanity," according to Christopher B. Leinberger, a metropolitan land strategist, developer and visiting fellow at The Brookings Institution. "This is, to some extent, a sort of 'back to the future' future," he said.

Leinberger, who spoke earlier this month at the Benjamin S. Crocker Symposium on Real Estate Law and Business 2007, estimated that the need for more sustainable environments, changing demographics, new cultural dynamics and infrastructure limitations will lead to the creation of more than 50 walkable urban centers in the Los Angeles Basin, each reminiscent of the historic downtown environment. "I personally think that one day people are going to wake up and realize that [downtown Los Angeles] is one of the great downtowns in the country," he said.

For some that day is now. Downtown's residential population has added 10,000 residents since 1998, according to Hal Bastian, vice president and director of economic development for the Downtown Center Business Improvement District. That population will grow significantly as more than 7,000 new residential units under construction are delivered. "Sprawl has hit the wall in Los Angeles and God stopped making land in Los Angeles," Bastian said. "The only place development is embraced is in downtown Los Angeles."

Despite billions in new investment and development, observers remain divided on the future of downtown markets. Also, as the national housing market drops, some question whether the downtown resurgence also will slow. So far the changing housing market hasn't scared away developers like Forest City Residential West Inc., which is attracted to the changing downtown demographics.

Renata Simril, vice president of development for Forest City, said the developer has three rental projects and two condominium projects in downtown Los Angeles that are all fully occupied. "We are still very bullish on downtown," she said.

What Color Is Your Collar?

The trend of downtown revitalization, which is delivering thousands of new high-end residential units in Los Angeles, was preceded by a very different demographic. In the 1980s a wave of artists formed the Arts District in abandoned downtown industrial buildings, giving the area a decidedly paint-splattered-collar appeal.

When artist Andre Miripolsky looked at moving to the Arts District 12 years ago, he chose The Brewery in Lincoln Heights over the official Artists District. He chose to live near but not in the middle of the action because of downtown's reputation. "After 5 p.m. it was dead. There were no amenities there," Miripolsky said. "It's the idea of having a Volvo or Mercedes parked next to Skid Row."

This trend took an evolutionary leap forward in 1999 when the city of Los Angeles adopted its adaptive-reuse ordinance and experienced private and institutional developers began to convert obsolete commercial buildings into highly amenitized rentals and condominiums. That development attracted a more affluent urban pioneer to live within blocks of Los Angeles' Skid Row, and priced out the artists.

"A lot of artists have left downtown because the prices are going up and the real artists' lofts with 25-foot ceilings are being converted to loft apartments and condominiums with 12-foot ceilings," Miripolsky said.

The transition of a portion of downtown from artists to white-collar workers is a classic trend in downtowns nationwide, Miripolsky said. He compared it to New York City's SoHo artists being forced to move to Brooklyn when that Arts District became a hip place to live. In San Francisco, hipsters organized themselves during the height of the high-tech boom when gentrification brought Silicon Valley's suddenly wealthy into the city's established neighborhoods.

"Many locals have been priced out of town, clearing the way for a new breed of educated, overpaid rednecks - Reagan's evil spawn to be sure," wrote Upper Haight resident John Goett in the late 1990s in a blog published at www.ratso.net. "And as San Francisco morphed from an industrial shipping center to a Disney-like tourist trap, its charm diversity and history are being erased in front of our eyes."

The effects of this residential transition still resonate in San Francisco. With some of the most expensive housing in the state, San Francisco is one of the few California cities whose population has remained relatively flat. U.S. Census figures for San Francisco in 2005 put the median household income at $57,496, the median age at 40, with just 136,800 of the city's 719,077 residents children.

By comparison, a February 2007 survey of downtown residents conducted by the Los Angeles Economic Development Corp. found that the median age of downtown residents surveyed is 31 years old and that 72.7 percent of the residents have no children in the home. The number of households with children in the two markets may not be dramatically different, but the perception is. The LAEDC survey showed that nearly half of downtown's residents planned to move out within five years to raise a family.

"The key is that downtown is not friendly to children," said Jack Kyser, the LAEDC's senior vice president and chief economist. "When the child reaches school age, 48 percent said they would move out of downtown due to a lack of good-quality schools."

So who will take the the young professionals and empty nesters' spots in downtowns if or when they leave?

Los Angeles City Councilwoman Jan Perry, whose district covers much of downtown, conducts downtown tours and attends the frequent open houses. She said that she is seeing people 35, 40 and older looking for homes. "I was moved by the diversity of people who came down here, not just ethnically, but the age diversity," Perry said.

That represents a shift as the LAEDC survey found that 6.8 percent of the respondents are between 55 and 64 and 1.2 percent are 65 or older.

A similar group of urban pioneers has moved to downtown San Diego. "There is a sizable number of young professionals, usually without children, who are moving downtown," said Robin Maydeck, a resident of downtown San Diego. "There are a lot of baby boomers like me downtown, as well as very vital retirees, many second homeowners and seniors on a fixed income."

Building 24/7 Appeal

Perry has faith that the changes occurring in both the retail landscape and several new schools under construction will help keep more people in downtown. For example, a Ralphs grocery - downtown's first full-service supermarket in 50 years - is scheduled to open this summer, and the Downtown Center BID is soliciting a restaurant row, she said. These are important amenities necessary to support a vibrant residential community.

However, these amenities need full-time patrons. What Joel Kotkin, author and urban historian, characterized as part-time or temporary residents cannot make up the bulk of the population or retail will never thrive and downtown Los Angeles will never be a 24-hour city. "My sense is that a lot of University of Southern California students live there," Kotkin said. "I taught at [the Southern California Institute of Architecture] located in the Artists District. Every single student I taught, who lived downtown, didn't intend to stay."

Combine that with the part-time empty-nester residents, like the attorney who works in Los Angeles two or three days a week and has a downtown condominium, but a house in Palm Springs. That attorney will not be here on the weekend to support the retail, Kotkin said. Nor will the area's new high-profile residents like David and Victoria Beckham, who live in the Biscuit Co. Lofts.

In places like Irvine where a downtown is rising where none existed before, developers are catering to the affluent to populate a live-work-play environment. Los Angeles is doing the same thing with L.A. Live and the Grand Avenue project, in addition to independent condominium developments. "The problem with downtown Los Angeles is that it's not near the beautiful parts of Los Angeles, the beach," Kotkin said. "I can get buying a condo in San Diego, because you can walk to the ocean or get an ocean view."

The difference for San Francisco is that developers are not adding product to an untested market, Kotkin said. Unlike Los Angeles, San Francisco also has the BART system enabling Bay Area residents to travel throughout the region without getting in their cars. It will be at least a decade before Los Angeles has completed work on the light-rail system. Even being ahead of the curve on transit and density, San Franciscans face the same problems with the lack of retail amenities.

"As a resident of Haight-Ashbury, I have my choice of 2,000 styles of shoes and 500 blends of coffee, yet I can't get a prescription filled and I can't do business with a bank teller. I can't even get a doggone Xerox copy," Goett wrote in the blog.

Real estate watchers may be on the fence about the staying power of downtown Los Angeles' urban pioneers, but no one can deny that California cities are reinventing their cores. "If you look at downtown San Francisco, it has always had a mix of business and residential," Kyser said. "If you go to Sacramento, the downtown fell on hard times and they are trying to reintroduce residential. When San Diego fell on hard times, the city developed the Gaslamp district."

With all the growth planned in redeveloping urban cores, like downtown Los Angeles, it will be years before the urban lifestyle emerges. "I just don't get it," Kotkin said. "Even if it all gets built, it will be a construction site for the next 10 years - it will be very unpleasant. Maybe in 15 years, it will emerge, but I just don't see the market."
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 2:57 AM
citywatch citywatch is offline
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Originally Posted by Sodha View Post
Are they waiting until Hanover Tower is done to get started on the FIDM tower?
FIDM's proj has gotten almost no publicity that I'm aware of, so your guess is as good as mine. If you could get a close look at the FIDM site & see that a lot of it is being used by Hanover as a staging area, then, yea, it's more likely that have a mutual understanding with FIDM that nothing will be built by them til Hanover is up & running. Regardless, I keep hearing about how the rising cost of construction is causing a lot of devlprs to get cold feet & either delay or cancel their projs. I know the long proposed new federal courthouse at 1st & Hill Sts has been snagged by this problem, so it probably also has affected the ppl at FIDM.
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 4:15 AM
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once again Kotkin proves that he is indeed, an idiot. He said it best, "I just don't get it," Kotkin said. what a fuck-tard.
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 4:48 AM
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Perhaps LosAngelesSportsFan, but there's absolutely no reason cuss to get one's point straight such as this
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 5:57 AM
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It is becoming a bit ridiculous how Kotkin will find any reason and opportunity to criticize downtown. I think there are some concerns about the population diversity (economically speaking) and whether an interesting community can sustain itself over time if it is all high-end. But, Kotkin is wrong about people not calling downtown home. The recent BID survey found 90% of residents view downtown as their primary residence. I think he might have been right about this 15 years ago with the Bunker Hill residents, but things have changed now and a community is forming. I just hope people continue to feel connected to the community and that a variety of income levels can afford to live there.
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 6:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
Perhaps LosAngelesSportsFan, but there's absolutely no reason cuss to get one's point straight such as this
Sorry JDRCRASH, but if there is ever a reason to cuss, it's when its directed at Kotkin ! So, LASF...
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  #50  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 8:15 AM
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Ya, I felt the concerns expressed in that article were a little strong. I dont think downtown is severely flawed. I do understand having a sustainable population, so good schools definitely need to be available as well as amenities provided in the retail growth. Things like laundromats, electronics, etc. I'm sure that as downtown grows, developers and retailers will notice what's missing in the community. So much is under construction and so much more is on its way that it's hard to say this boom will end a certain way. I dont think anyone can tell for sure what will happen long term until maybe 2010 when most of what's on the table now is open for business.
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 10:05 AM
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I hate Kotkin with a passion! Isn't he old? At least we won't be hearing from him TOO long as people do have natural life spans.
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  #52  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 10:44 AM
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however much we all love to hate kotkin, and however good it feels to rally dogmatically against him, he does have a valid point. DTLA is a pseudo-downtown right now, and will continue to be one until it becomes the undisputed center of Los Angeles from a functional standpoint. That substantive transition won't happen until our rail network expands to connect DTLA to the other regions througout the city in a way that makes transit usage a pillar of everyday life for a more substantial number of people than occurs today. And this isn't happening as long as we're building rail lines to bumblefuck-montclair.

Until then, DTLA is just another car-dependent neighborhood trying to act like something it's not - potentially another glorified old-town pasadena or third street promenade, where suburban yuppies and hipsters drive in increasing numbers into pseudo-downtown parking garages before venturing in their limited way on foot as pseudo-pedestrians, of course getting as much gratification from it as a suburbanite hauling her monthly trashbag of recyclables in her yukon.

Forget BART. At least in SF proper you've got the extensive muni network and streetcars, making mass transit a part of daily life for people throughout this 7 mile square city. In SF, access to union square or fidi ("downtown") is a no brainer from outer-sunset or ingleside - a quick jaunt into north beach for foccacia bread before picking up the laundry, no big deal. In LA, a trip into downtown (if you should ever need one) is a task more easily accomplished by car for the vast majority of residents who don't live in the immediate proximity of its two or three disparately situated rail lines. I don't care what any LA booster says, we don't have anything comparable to missing your N Judah at 19th and, on the fly, walking down Irving towards UCSF instead to catch the Muni into Fidi, or on the fly, jumping on 71L at arguello instead. And we definitely don't have the peace of mind knowing, as SF residents know, that a cab ride is as easily found in the wee hours as a muni ride during rush hour.

With LA, city blocks are prohibitively long, even around K-town, meaning that forgoing a transit stop could become a daunting trek through dull, uninteresting neighborhoods to reach the next relevant transit stop. It's just not very fun using mass transit in LA. A trip into downtown is a real chore. DTLA is a downtown in name only, isolated from every other part of the city as any other non-descript neighborhood (again, save for those fortunate enough to live near those disparate few rail lines). The only reason it's "different", aside from its history, is that there are a few skyscrapers situated there, and people merely refer to it as "downtown", if only because they know it as where they dine with their spouses for anniversary fois gras and chardonnay. From a pedestrian's perspective, LA's user-friendliness is one dimensional: in a single vector (your rail line). Use it to go in two directions, but don't venture from it, especially not late at night.

that said, rah rah, fuck kotkin (booh, hisss!), go AEG, hurrah for density, yay for big buildings!

Last edited by edluva; May 10, 2007 at 11:11 AM.
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 11:58 PM
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I don't think I've ever read so many negative posts from a single person. What's the deal? Give it time.
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted May 11, 2007, 5:44 AM
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Originally Posted by citywatch View Post
Kotkin said, "Even if it all gets built, it will be a construction site for the next 10 years - it will be very unpleasant. Maybe in 15 years, it will emerge, but I just don't see the market."
I don't find the construction "unpleasant" personally.. on the contrary, it's rather exciting, adding vibrancy to the city.

On another note, I'm down in San Diego on business for a few days. The amount of residential that's been recently completed or under construction in DTSD is quite astonishing. A lot of it is low to mid-rise, but more of the newer construction is going high-rise. Looks like no real estate slowdown here at all. One positive thing I can say about a lot of the DT here is the scale - pedestrian - not isolated fortresses - yet anyway. I suppose there was not nearly the level of under-utilized historical buildings down here to convert to residential as in DTLA. That's where the bulk of units added in DTLA has been, until now, right? So that would make our renewal a little more difficult to ascertain from changes in the skyline up to this point (beyond the scrubbed and brightened older buildings). With the notable exceptions of Hanover, Evo and Luma there hasn't been much new ground up high rises that stand out from afar. Hopefully most of the approved and proposed towers do get built.

Developers have always been overly cautious about LA's urban areas while being bullish about a lot of less deserving or sensible locales. Oh well, slow and steady wins the race, right? I say if the developers build it, they will come. I think a lot of local (ie: L.A. Live, Grand Ave.) and global (ie: gas prices) forces are aligning to make DTLA's location more and more attractive to residents in our region.

Perhaps this Kotkin guy has never been in a high rise in DTLA on a clear day with the amazing backdrop of the rolling hills and purple mountains behind them to the north and east... while westward and southward ocean views and Catalina Island more distant... or the same at sunset, a blazing red sky then as twilight descends a sea of lights as far as the eye can see.. or are these things not beautiful too?
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted May 11, 2007, 11:58 PM
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I live in downtown San Diego, and he same stuff Kotkin says in his article has been argued here, and of course the challenges exist but that's what development is all about and none of the arguments stopped core growth.

LA is running out of places to sprawl (same issue in San Diego, ocean to the west, desert/mountains to the east, Mexico to the south) so the lack of land, the housing costs that make lofts and condos a little more affordable than single family dwellings, and the overall national trend to downtown living being chic and "in" will all amount to LA's DT growing and becoming a premier neighborhood.

My advice is to not listen to nay-sayers like this Kotkin guy and invest in downtown LA, I have a feeling in 10 years people who buy now will be laughing all the way to the bank and will find themselves living in on of the cities most chic and desirable neighborhoods

LA, unlike San Diego, is a major player on the world stage and is one of the top 10 most recognizable cities on earth. If San Diego can bring a run-down downtown into a nationally-recognized urban center, LA can most certainly create one of the most spectacular urban environments in the world

Last edited by SDCAL; May 12, 2007 at 12:04 AM.
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted May 12, 2007, 1:01 AM
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^ I like your thinking there mister
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  #57  
Old Posted May 12, 2007, 1:53 AM
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That substantive transition won't happen until our rail network expands to connect DTLA to the other regions througout the city in a way that makes transit usage a pillar of everyday life for a more substantial number of people than occurs today.

That transition also won't happen til more of the dumps & deadzones get flattened, removed & replaced, preferably with a lot more AEG (hip, hip, hurrah!), more density (hip, hip hurrah---better than a damn parking lot!!) & big buildings! (hip, hip, hurrah----better things like that than mile after mile of short stuccoed Carl's Jr, Mcdonald's, walmarts, ranch style houses, shopping ctrs with an Albertson's on one side, a Big lots on the other, & Rite Aid in the middle).

I notice most of the slams directed at the city in comments like these refer to things OTHER than transit. Yea, it's lousy to get stuck on jammed fwys, or to have few options in moving from one part of town to another. But it's even worse if you have to go through alot of scumlands when driving or taking trains, buses, subways or whatever.
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted May 12, 2007, 2:03 AM
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I don't find the construction "unpleasant" personally.. on the contrary, it's rather exciting, adding vibrancy to the city.

Exactly. I find it far more unpleasant to have to keep driving or walking by a rundown old bldg that hasn't gotten any TLC in yrs & yrs, or a parking lot that's still a parking lot yrs after the fact.

And it's certainly way more unpleasant to have to keep guessing why the devlpr of the Concerto condo proj hasn't done a thing to his site for several months. Or to have to wonder if the devlpr of, for instance, Parkfifth or the Glass Tower is full of BS. Of to not know for sure if the owners of the proposed City house & Olympic towers are going to end up more than all talk, no action.
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted May 12, 2007, 3:11 AM
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Actually Los Angeles has more space to grow in the great Mojave Desert, beyond Palmdale and Victerville heading towards Barstow and California City.
The only problem is...how to get people from the northern basin into the LA basin.

Hmmm.... maybe a few tunnels under the San Gabrial Mountains?
The cost? Probably in tens of Billions? But its definatly worth it.
Think about it....both California City and the L.A. area at last truly joined.
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted May 12, 2007, 3:24 AM
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