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  #41  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Toronto is like 350 miles inland from the coast.

Surely the storm was no longer an actual hurricane by the time it got up to Toronto, right?
From Wikipedia:

The effects of Hazel were particularly unprecedented in Toronto because of a combination of heavy rainfall during the preceding weeks, a lack of experience in dealing with hurricanes, and the storm's unexpected retention of power despite traveling 1,100 km (680 mi) over land. The storm stalled over the Toronto area, and although it was now extratropical, it remained as powerful as a category 1 hurricane.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 3:13 PM
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^ that's utterly wild.

Where in the hell was the storm pulling in the energy to maintain itself that far inland?

I mean, it's not like any of the great lakes are big and warm enough to sustain a hurricane.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ that's utterly wild.

Where in the hell was the storm pulling in the energy to maintain itself that far inland?

I mean, it's not like any of the great lakes are big and warm enough to sustain a hurricane.

Gawd's punishment for being such uptight puritanical Protestants. Sorry, couldn't resist.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
The Houston MSA grew from 5.9 million to 7.1 million from 2010 to 2020, a 20.3% increase. It doesn't seem like these storms and flooding/power issues are having any effect on population growth.
It certainly hasn't, to this point. However, as insurance costs and property taxes rise to pay for storm cleanup, grid improvements, and flooding prevention that may very well change.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Velvet_Highground View Post
I suppose I need to preface with the fact that Houston is one of the most hurricane vulnerable cities in the country despite its city limits being inland. The whole reason Houston grew up where is did was the 1902 Galveston hurricane the deadliest in US history destroying the Manhattan of the South. Houston’s vulnerability is spelled out in its name the bayou city as the estuaries are vulnerable to both surge and flooding though not the wipe the slab clean surge on the barrier islands or direct coast.

An unusually bad cat 1 is a good way to describe the storm. Having been a cat 4 that made landfall and or previously interacted with terrain several times before the storm structure was still intact albeit greatly diminished. That along with the track through the Bay of Campeche an extremely warm body of water makes for easier reintensification along with allowing for a better system structure. The more organized the structure the means more developed feeder bands and inner and outer eyewall. Leading to a larger area being effected by strong winds in the most intense squalls.

Further more the northerly track brought the right front quadrant the most dangerous part of the system with the strongest and most prolonged winds into Houston. The angle of impact further exacerbated the flooding situation due to the local and regional geography pushing surge in the worst possible direction for water to continuously pile up. Hurricane Sandy while a warm core hybrid can be an analogous situation in terms of angle of impact, geography & prior high intensity leading to a severe cat 1. Though Sandy was a different animal there are parallels that can be drawn, at least in understanding how impacts don’t always correlate to intensity ratings.

Climate change and the sudden onset of a strong La Niña seems to be pro-Atlantic this time strangely in terms of effecting Hurricane development. The eastern pacific usually has a much more active hurricane season during normal La Niña the quick switch from El Niño seems to have thrown basic climate models into chaos. Hurricane Hillary was only able to get a chance to make a run at So Cal due to the extremely powerful La Niña of summer 2023. We’re in an insane situation flipping back and forth from La Niña in summer to El Niño in winter back to La Niña it’s completely breaking the most fundamental rules of known meteorology on a global scale.

The massive prolonged extreme western heatwave likely is a result of a lack of hurricane activity in the eastern pacific in a La Niña set up. It’s certainly delayed the monsoon though the kind of heatwave being experienced in the west right now is downright scary for its intensity and scope. With very few exceptions such as San Francisco city limits the entire area west of the a line up to the Wasatch Mountains is under excessive heat warnings including 100+ on the pacific coast in Northern California, above 100 in Portland and near 100 in Seattle with even the Olympic Peninsula in the high 80’s.

The East Pac is experiencing much warmer than usual water temperatures. What that means is anyone’s guess could have another bomb Hurricane like the cat 5 the devastated Acapulco with no warning, going from a storm to a cat 5 in 24 hours. Could have another Hurricane Hilary make a run at So Cal or the hurricane season could be quiet killing the monsoon and restarting the path to mega drought just as we are seeing an end to short term effects of the drought. That would likely lead to an epic fire season as the vegetation has had several good to record seasons of precipitation leading to explosion in brush growth.
Very interesting post, but I do find it a bit odd that so many people are obsessing over this 'western heat wave'. I was just in South Carolina for a week visiting family, and kept seeing posts online about how terrible the heat in the west was. I got back to LA expecting hellish conditions, and it was 85 degrees...aka normal summer weather. Nowhere near as hot as Charleston, and pretty much what you'd expect from summer here.

100+ in Portland and Seattle is definitely hotter than normal but hardly unprecedented. I feel like summer heatwaves have always happened, but now anytime there's any type of weather event people are quick to call it 'unprecedented' or use similar calamitous language. I'm not a climate change denier by any stretch, but I do think people a prone to hyperbole these days. Vegas in the summer is always hot. I don't care that it's 120 degrees there in July...it was like that when I visited 20+ years ago. It's summer in the desert...why am I getting news alerts on my phone about stuff like that?
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  #46  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
Most of the worst flooding consistently happens upstream of those densifying development areas in the inner city.
Thanks.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 4:43 PM
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1M+ without power and a heat index of over 100 today? Sounds brutal...
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  #48  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Very interesting post, but I do find it a bit odd that so many people are obsessing over this 'western heat wave'. I was just in South Carolina for a week visiting family, and kept seeing posts online about how terrible the heat in the west was. I got back to LA expecting hellish conditions, and it was 85 degrees...aka normal summer weather. Nowhere near as hot as Charleston, and pretty much what you'd expect from summer here.

100+ in Portland and Seattle is definitely hotter than normal but hardly unprecedented. I feel like summer heatwaves have always happened, but now anytime there's any type of weather event people are quick to call it 'unprecedented' or use similar calamitous language. I'm not a climate change denier by any stretch, but I do think people a prone to hyperbole these days. Vegas in the summer is always hot. I don't care that it's 120 degrees there in July...it was like that when I visited 20+ years ago. It's summer in the desert...why am I getting news alerts on my phone about stuff like that?
120 in Vegas is an all time record. Palm Springs also recorded an all time record of 124 during this heat wave, so calling it unprecedented would be literally correct.

But yeah in coastal California it's been a normal summer so far.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
120 in Vegas is an all time record. Palm Springs also recorded an all time record of 124 during this heat wave, so calling it unprecedented would be literally correct.

But yeah in coastal California it's been a normal summer so far.
120 might be a record, but it routinely hits 115 or so in Vegas in the summer. I've been there when it's been that hot. A few more degrees really doesn't feel that significant to me. I don't understand why anyone would willingly live in places like Vegas, Phoenix, Palm Springs in the summer months, but if that's what people want to do, I guess more power to them. With how much Vegas has urbanized over the past decades, I'm sure the urban heat island effect will result in higher temperatures going forward regardless of global warming.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 5:50 PM
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Remember folks, if you've got something to say about Trump or Biden, it goes in the CE toilet.

All such references in the worthwhile parts of this forum will always be deleted.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 6:04 PM
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One good thing - Houston doesn't have basements. If Houston had basements, the property damage estimates would explode, and there would likely be many dozens of additional deaths.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 6:18 PM
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Then again, if Houston needed basements, it wouldn't be at risk for frequent hurricanes.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 6:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
Then again, if Houston needed basements, it wouldn't be at risk for frequent hurricanes.
Who needs a basement?
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  #54  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 6:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
Who needs a basement?
I mean, in cold (but not too cold...) climates, it helps prevent freezing.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
Who needs a basement?

no one "needs" a basement, but the colder a place gets in the winter, the deeper the foundation footings of a house need to be to get below the frost line.

At a certain depth, it becomes more cost effective to just excavate for the entire foundation and create an entire basement level for the home.

This is why the overwhelming majority of homes in Chicago have basements, while the exact opposite is true in Houston.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jul 10, 2024 at 7:13 PM.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Who needs a basement?
See Steely Dan's reply.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 7:11 PM
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Houston has a couple problems:

1. It was built very cheaply in the name of low taxes and minimal regulations. This means flimsy power lines, shotty underground power line infrastructure, not adding more detention ponds for drainage because it could be another development/more houses, etc. I always thought Houston should be built more like the Miami metro. Compact, less parking lot but more garages, more detention ponds and lakes, plus sidewalks of course. Houston went the cheap route though and trying to patch up what was messed up. Going to take a while to fix that.

2. Unincorporated areas. Houston has more people living in unincorporated areas now than the actual city. This means many areas are unplanned. After decades of growth it has culminated into what we see now. Imagine if there were incorporated cities around Houston instead that took measures into their own hands for local drainage (say requiring more detention ponds or less parking lots), that would help down the line. Instead you have one large county geographically that has several areas with different needs. The county is also cheap which is why it allowed development in reservoirs.

3. Texas energy. It has long been time for CenterPoint to see its way out and for electricity, a utility, to be turned over to the public

If half a century ago, Houston allowed for its suburbs to incorporate as cities, if together that collection of cities came up with plans to mitigate flood damage instead of just building in the name of profit, if electric lines were a priority in the state with all the growth coming, etc., it would have meant for a slightly more expensive Houston but a much more livable one.

Right now people are losing week's worth of groceries every other month it feels like due to outtages. I have a 30 week pregnant cousin going on nearly 3 days with no power (on top of the other family members huddling up with those that do). It is not a way to live and the residents should be rioting.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Beryl was much worse than we anticipated.
Not going to lie, I'm confused when I see people say this. Ike wasn't that long ago. Sure Ike was a massive storm but it made landfall as a low category 2 storm (so it's wind field was way bigger), but Ike nearly crossed directly over Houston and showed what a Cat 2 landfall in the area could do.

Beryl early on may not have been predicted to hit Houston but several days before it surely was, with the eye going over the west side. This meant the entire dirty side of the storm would be over Houston for hours. Anyone with just a few years experience dealing with tropical storms knows that's the side you don't want to be on. This is why I told my people over there to go pack up on supplies after July 4th because it was gonna be a doozy.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 7:29 PM
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Houston, for a major U.S. metro, has a crazy amount of neighborhoods that seem very dilapidated and rudimentary. Just random trailers and shacks and warehouses. Almost like a developed world version of shantytowns. Seems like a really bad place for consistent flooding. Places like this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7733...5409&entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7748...5409&entry=ttu

I'm actually amazed they don't get more deaths. It seems like residents are at least prepared to act. And kinda like Buffalo with snowstorms, I assume the local officials know the routine.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Houston, for a major U.S. metro, has a crazy amount of neighborhoods that seem very dilapidated and rudimentary. Just random trailers and shacks and warehouses. Almost like a developed world version of shantytowns. Seems like a really bad place for consistent flooding. Places like this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7733...5409&entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7748...5409&entry=ttu

I'm actually amazed they don't get more deaths. It seems like residents are at least prepared to act. And kinda like Buffalo with snowstorms, I assume the local officials know the routine.
Let me note that those Google streetview locations are not in the city of Houston. They're in Cloverleaf, which is a census-designated place in Harris County. I'm sure there are some just as bad within the city limits. You'll just have to try harder to find them.

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