Kapyong Barracks Discussion

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

Why do we not see First Nations groups invest in downtown, namely Point Douglas? From the Louise Bridge to Main Street, there is plenty of potential to create a mixed-use community.

Because they want to do it on reserve land.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

Why do we not see First Nations groups invest in downtown, namely Point Douglas? From the Louise Bridge to Main Street, there is plenty of potential to create a mixed-use community.

It comes down to taxes. On reserve land they don't need to pay sales tax, consumption tax or property tax. If they are in a city they pay a fee for services in lieu of property tax similar to the CMHR. Also the end consumer might not pay the completely tax free pricing on a purchase but rather a price built with revenue that goes to the band instead of the government.

..

Forgot to mention the war museum in my previous post. It is likely an attempt to score some on-going grants. Museums normally receive grants for different levels of government. Just hope the "museum" isn't essentially a glass case of the corner of the lobby entrance to their casino.

[Jets4Life]

Any news on the barracks? Last I had heard was watching a video of a town hall meeting, where angry residents were listening to the First Nation group explain their plans to build an Urban Reserve on the property.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Any news on the barracks? Last I had heard was watching a video of a town hall meeting, where angry residents were listening to the First Nation group explain their plans to build an Urban Reserve on the property.

Anyone who embraces urban reserves needs to give their head a shake.

Urban reserve = unfair advantage over other tax paying businesses!

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Anyone who embraces urban reserves needs to give their head a shake.

Urban reserve = unfair advantage over other tax paying businesses!

Well, rightly or wrongly, their rights are enshrined in the founding documents of this country. Things simply are the way that they are, and they aren't about to change. Given that, we might as well embrace things in a positive way.

[esquire]

The Free Press has been running a series of articles this week about the future of the Kapyong Barracks site. The sheer complexity of the ownership issue is preventing development from getting started, but the articles have speculated over what is likely to happen with the site.

At this point, I'd have a hard time imagining that the site wouldn't be anchored by a casino for the following reasons:

1. First Nations will likely become owners of the land
2. First Nations have been shut out of urban casino development with no sites in Brandon or Winnipeg, and they've arguably maxed out the potential of the current rural sites
3. The growing south end of town does not have a casino, and no new casinos have been added since the current two were built in the early 1990s
4. The other obvious candidate for the area, commercial, is probably not that appealing given the large amount of unleased retail space in that area although there may be demand for office space

I think this plot of land will be more about revenue generating potential than any kind of idealistic vision for the city. That's why I see a small gas station and strip mall on the corner of Grant and Kenaston, a large casino and parking lot along Kenaston, some multifamily residential and a small multitenant office building or two along Taylor and Grant, and then maybe a small enclave of single family homes abutting the existing residential areas.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Free Press has been running a series of articles this week about the future of the Kapyong Barracks site. The sheer complexity of the ownership issue is preventing development from getting started, but the articles have speculated over what is likely to happen with the site.

At this point, I'd have a hard time imagining that the site wouldn't be anchored by a casino for the following reasons:

1. First Nations will likely become owners of the land
2. First Nations have been shut out of urban casino development with no sites in Brandon or Winnipeg, and they've arguably maxed out the potential of the current rural sites
3. The growing south end of town does not have a casino, and no new casinos have been added since the current two were built in the early 1990s
4. The other obvious candidate for the area, commercial, is probably not that appealing given the large amount of unleased retail space in that area although there may be demand for office space

I think this plot of land will be more about revenue generating potential than any kind of idealistic vision for the city. That's why I see a small gas station and strip mall on the corner of Grant and Kenaston, a large casino and parking lot along Kenaston, some multifamily residential and a small multitenant office building or two along Taylor and Grant, and then maybe a small enclave of single family homes abutting the existing residential areas.

very good points, especially #4. It would basically be a long commercial strip ranging from Kenaston at scurfield all the way up to Polo Park, save the small chunk of residential in the middle. No way you can fill all of that with retail tenants.

I also feel like a casino is inevitable, but that would only account for a relatively small portion of the site.

It will be interesting to see how much say the city will have in how the site is developed. I guess the city could play hard ball by threatening to not connect services (water) if the site design is poor. Hopefully some form of density rather than a sea of parking with scattered apartment buildings, a casino and gas bar. I guess if whoever develops it is looking a pure revenue generation, more people in the area and greater density is better than paving acres of parking that doesn't make any money.

[Tacheguy]

Anyone else think the downtown Bay would be a great location for a large casino? I think it could have a lot going for it. I suspect the downtown hotels and bars would like it. Not sure about True North..

[vellakaran]

That article in FP had a map showing the size of the site overlaid other Winnipeg areas. I never realized the size of the site, i guess that is what happens when you go by at 60km/h. I think they may be able to fit more than a gas station and a strip mall.
here is one of the images from FP

[YWG-RO]

Let the indigenous communities have the land and develop it as they see fit. Improvements to Route 90 can only help them.

I think this goes a long way to reconciliation. There’s plenty of other land in Winnipeg. Just look at the debacle on the Winnipeg Stadium plot.

Give them a chance. All the other politically connected developers in Winnipeg seem to get their chance.

[JM5]

Tender's out - calling for Residential Mixed Use (Urban Reserve), $90M, demolition under way, configuration (site layout?) to be determined

[buzzg]

I think an urban reserve has great potential – it's success within itself and within the city's makeup hinges on good urban design, meaning the nations and the city working closely to allow it to be a model neighbourhood. It's happened in other cities, it can happen here.

Does anyone know, do they still have to follow the city's zoning/design rules and guidelines?

[JM5]

I'm all for this as long as that land doesn't keep sitting there empty and I don't foresee any real issues with this being an urban reserve. On the contrary, I think it may very well be positive.

The $90M price tag sounds a bit low though. Okay for residential, strip malls and a gas station but I would guess it's too little for a casino of significance. More of a lounge with VLT's type of price. I guess it's all about what the bands involved can finance.

[esquire]

^ If you had what amounted to exclusive rights to establish a third casino in Winnipeg, I'm thinking financing wouldn't be an issue at all. Perhaps those are just the first phase costs.

[BuildUpWpg]

Originally Posted by YWG-RO

Let the indigenous communities have the land and develop it as they see fit. Improvements to Route 90 can only help them.

I think this goes a long way to reconciliation. There’s plenty of other land in Winnipeg. Just look at the debacle on the Winnipeg Stadium plot.

Give them a chance. All the other politically connected developers in Winnipeg seem to get their chance.

I just worry that the deep pocketed people in the adjacent residential area will do everything they can to stop indigenous development of the barracks.

[buzzg]

I think they just need to be open with the whole process – it's the term "urban reserve" that scares people, but really all it is kind of like a TIF grand where the taxes go to First Nations. People often forget that there is actually a ton of affordable/subsidized housing in Tuxedo, north of Grant.

If done correctly, once developed, you would never know that this is even an "urban reserve" – it would just fit in with the areas around it. It would have lots of people living and shopping on the land that aren't First Nations, along with providing some affordable housing for people, FN and non.

[Tacheguy]

Developments on reserve lands haven't hurt Tsawwassen B.C.
Could be very positive for Winnipeg and for First Nations.

[JM5]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ If you had what amounted to exclusive rights to establish a third casino in Winnipeg, I'm thinking financing wouldn't be an issue at all. Perhaps those are just the first phase costs.

That makes sense.

[rrskylar]

April 2, 2028

Second term Mayor Brent Bellamy says talks on the Kapyong Barracks Lands are progressing and some sort of agreement should be reached within the next two years.

[drew]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I think they just need to be open with the whole process – it's the term "urban reserve" that scares people, but really all it is kind of like a TIF grand where the taxes go to First Nations. People often forget that there is actually a ton of affordable/subsidized housing in Tuxedo, north of Grant.

If done correctly, once developed, you would never know that this is even an "urban reserve" – it would just fit in with the areas around it. It would have lots of people living and shopping on the land that aren't First Nations, along with providing some affordable housing for people, FN and non.

The above bolded is so important with Kapyong.

This will be a very high profile project - and one located in a very development sensitive area. Sensitive in the sense that the surrounding residents will be vocal, and have deep pockets to fight this one tooth and nail if they see something they don't like.

Personally - I am a bit worried that this project will have to go perfectly, and if not, it will get bogged down for many years. It is also basically the first kick at the can for how the residents of Winnipeg will view any future Urban reserve that may get proposed. IMO, there needs to be a tremendous amount of pressure of the consortium of FN's to do this project right.

I have worked with a number of FN's on projects within their communities, and the process can be a bit, difficult. This project with so many stakeholders, in such a high profile location - will almost certainly get mired with disagreements, and ultimately is doomed to fail. I do sincerely hope that I am wrong, but at this point I am very pessimistic on the outcome for this.