Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[savevp]

Originally Posted by casper

I think you will have a hard time finding anyone who is going to defend what Hamas is doing.

The end does not justify the means. It is simply wrong to claim it is acceptable to kill innocent civilians, children, babies and all because it is the most convenient way of killing a terrorist.

Demanding civilians relocate from one side of a high density city to another so it can be carpet bombed is an act of revenge and a way of punishing a civilian population. Does anyone believe it is going to be effective in eliminating Hamas.

How else should Israel possibly kill the terrorists? They live and walk amongst civilians. There is ample evidence to show the urban areas are rife with Hamas infrastructure. If you support the eradication of Hamas and its infrastructure , you must support what you've falsely called "carpet bombing." Or you must support a massive ground invasion, which I suspect many will not.

And you either support Israel's effort to remove as many civilians as possible before the ground invasion or you must accept massive civilian losses.

It's very simple, you can't destroy Hamas without causing large scale destruction in Gaza because Hamas operate from civilian areas. Saying Israel can't cause this destruction is either ignorance of the nature of this war or a veiled desire to see Israel lose it. À la the Ukraine ceasefire argument.

[casper]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Mostly agree with you especially that particular phrase. But under this government (and some of the last) we have ministers chosen for their appearance not competence. Mostly women but men as well. Bernier for example. Can we not call that out? Trudeau gets accused of being a pretty boy obsessed with his clothes. Is this Misandrist?

If we take Katherine McKenna as an example.

After leaving politics where did she end up? Did she end up selling coffee at Starbucks? No not exactly.

She is runing her own environmental consulting firm, is a visiting fellow at Columbia University, served as chair of the UN High-Level Expert Group on the Net-Zero Emissions Commitments of Non-State Entities. (per wikipedia)

I guess outside of Canada the rest of the world thinks she is competent.

[casper]

Originally Posted by savevp

How else should Israel possibly kill the terrorists? They live and walk amongst civilians. There is ample evidence to show the urban areas are rife with Hamas infrastructure. If you support the eradication of Hamas and its infrastructure , you must support what you've falsely called "carpet bombing." Or you must support a massive ground invasion, which I suspect many will not.

And you either support Israel's effort to remove as many civilians as possible before the ground invasion or you must accept massive civilian losses.

It's very simple, you can't destroy Hamas without causing large scale destruction in Gaza because Hamas operate from civilian areas. Saying Israel can't cause this destruction is either ignorance of the nature of this war or a veiled desire to see Israel lose it. À la the Ukraine ceasefire argument.

Good question. How did the UK deal with the IRA?

Israel is not going to solve this problem by killing people. What motivates people to join Hamas? Perhaps it has something to do with the impact Israel forces have on family members living in Gaza? Killing civilians is going to motivate more people to join Hamas.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Mostly agree with you especially that particular phrase. But under this government (and some of the last) we have ministers chosen for their appearance not competence. Mostly women but men as well. Bernier for example. Can we not call that out? Trudeau gets accused of being a pretty boy obsessed with his clothes. Is this Misandrist?

Joly has a law degree from the university of Montreal and an MJ from Oxford, and worked at two prestigious law firms in Montreal. She is a smart, successful person who happens to be good looking.

I think she has been too political to be a good Foreign Minister, particularly in the politics of her own riding, but that isn’t a competency issue or a physical appearance issue.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by casper

Good question. How did the UK deal with the IRA?

Israel is not going to solve this problem by killing people. What motivates people to join Hamas? Perhaps it has something to do with the impact Israel forces have on family members living in Gaza? Killing civilians is going to motivate more people to join Hamas.

Israel was generally fairly generous with Gaza, withdrawing completely, leaving some economic infrastructure. Gaza immediately elected Hamas with a policy of perpetual war.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Joly has a law degree from the university of Montreal and an MJ from Oxford, and worked at two prestigious law firms in Montreal. She is a smart, successful person who happens to be good looking.

I think she has been too political to be a good Foreign Minister, particularly in the politics of her own riding, but that isn’t a competency issue or a physical appearance issue.

All true but it's also arguable that she's underperformed in most Cabinet roles she's been given, relative to her CV which you have outlined here.

(She's also one of the nicer politicians I've had the pleasure or displeasure of meeting.)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

All true but it's also arguable that she's underperformed in most Cabinet roles she's been given, relative to her CV which you have outlined here.

(She's also one of the nicer politicians I've had the pleasure or displeasure of meeting.)

I don’t claim to understand the nuances of Quebec politics but I understand she was was dumped from Heritage for pissing off the Devoir crowd by refusing to impose a Netflix tax and then failing to explain it on Tout le monde en parle. I am not sure that is underperformance in the usual sense of that word.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Mostly agree with you especially that particular phrase. But ....

Never a good sign when someone tries to justify bigotry. There's no need for a "But" here.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

...under this government (and some of the last) we have ministers chosen for their appearance not competence. Mostly women but men as well. Bernier for example. Can we not call that out?

Sure call that out. But unless you're being specific, calling a woman "... Barbie" is a ridiculous ad hominem. Again, I ask, would you accept this kind of language against women in your life?

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Trudeau gets accused of being a pretty boy obsessed with his clothes. Is this Misandrist?

Yes it is.

I don't give a shit what Trudeau wears. And neither should you. We are all capable of criticizing his performance and his government's policies without being obsessed about his fashion choices. The rare exception to that is when fashion impacts his job (like his first trip to India).

Incidentally, there's probably significant overlap between the misandrists who obsess over Trudeau's sticks and misogynists who call ministers of state "Barbie" for no other reason than their appearance.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

All true but it's also arguable that she's underperformed in most Cabinet roles she's been given, relative to her CV which you have outlined here.

She can be an absolute shit Minister (I think she's more in the mediocre category) and it still wouldn't justify calling her "Barbie".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

She can be an absolute shit Minister (I think she's more in the mediocre category) and it still wouldn't justify calling her "Barbie".

Oh, agree 100%.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Israel was generally fairly generous with Gaza, withdrawing completely, leaving some economic infrastructure. Gaza immediately elected Hamas with a policy of perpetual war.

How much should that be held against the Gazans of today, who have never had a choice to elect somebody else since?

I don't know the answer. But this doesn't exactly seem fair.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by casper

Good question. How did the UK deal with the IRA?

Israel is not going to solve this problem by killing people. What motivates people to join Hamas? Perhaps it has something to do with the impact Israel forces have on family members living in Gaza? Killing civilians is going to motivate more people to join Hamas.

If the Palestinian majority wants nothing to do with Hamas, where are they? Where were they on October 6th? You think you’d see thousands of Palestinians flocking to Israel for protection and volunteering to sign up and help liberate their own people, but this isn’t happening. THEY WANT THIS SHIT.

Imagine hating Jews so much you kill over a thousand of them on a holiday weekend. you’re burning and slaughtering their babies, raping and torturing their women and men. then when Israel retaliated and blocks you off, cuts off your aid and supplies, you have the fucking audacity to shout WAR CRIMES! Hypocrites much?

[OldDartmouthMark]

I've been hearing and reading that Hamas acted at this time in order to thwart a potential Israel - Saudi Arabia peace agreement. Apparently Iran is afraid that this would lessen their power in the middle east, and thus has backed action to goad Israel into war.

I'm not going to say much more than that, as I am far from being an expert on politics/religious strife in the area, but I'm reading a lot of simplistic judgements in this thread that don't seem to tackle the complexity of this situation. There's a lot more going on than meets the eye, but we seem to get stuck on specific details intending to place blame on one side or the other for specific acts that don't speak to the big picture.

Over and above that, just speaking for myself as a Canadian citizen, I am starting to resent protests being brought to our streets attempting to influence opinions on religious wars that have been going on for as long as people have existed there. I am empathetic to the plight of Palestinian people who have been used as pawns in a terrorists' organization whose goal (as stated by their own leadership) has been to eradicate Jews and take back Israel. It's horrible what is going on there, but when every protest I've seen on television has people holding signs that, in effect, say 'give back Gaza to Paletinians', it purveys the idea that the protests aren't about stopping the killing of innocent civilians, but about stepping up the hostilities - fighting a larger war.

The two-state solution, that was being worked on for some decades is a larger issue that would only be able to happen with the elimination of Hamas, and a change in Israel's leadership. Inserting provocative signage into a protest that is supposed to be about protecting innocent civilians shines an entirely different light upon the purpose of the protests. IMHO.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Hecate

It’s absolutely pathetic that it has taken Canada this long to recognize that this hospital incident was Hamas....

So, I guess you'll be fuming about Britain's Conservative government as well, given that PM Sunak announced just this morning in their House of Commons that "the UK government judges that the explosion [at Gaza's Al-Ahli hospital] was likely caused by a missile or part of one that was launched from within Gaza towards Israel"...

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Never a good sign when someone tries to justify bigotry. There's no need for a "But" here.



Sure call that out. But unless you're being specific, calling a woman "... Barbie" is a ridiculous ad hominem. Again, I ask, would you accept this kind of language against women in your life?



Yes it is.

I don't give a shit what Trudeau wears. And neither should you. We are all capable of criticizing his performance and his government's policies without being obsessed about his fashion choices. The rare exception to that is when fashion impacts his job (like his first trip to India).

Incidentally, there's probably significant overlap between the misandrists who obsess over Trudeau's sticks and misogynists who call ministers of state "Barbie" for no other reason than their appearance.

This government is obsessed with image over substance. Their clothes choices reflect this. Men and Women, but I know it's bigotry to mention this about women. Sure.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Hecate

If the Palestinian majority wants nothing to do with Hamas, where are they? Where were they on October 6th? You think you’d see thousands of Palestinians flocking to Israel for protection and volunteering to sign up and help liberate their own people, but this isn’t happening. THEY WANT THIS SHIT.

Imagine hating Jews so much you kill over a thousand of them on a holiday weekend. you’re burning and slaughtering their babies, raping and torturing their women and men. then when Israel retaliated and blocks you off, cuts off your aid and supplies, you have the fucking audacity to shout WAR CRIMES! Hypocrites much?

Given that perspective I can see why Israel ended up in this situation and there is no clear path out.

Sad.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I've been hearing and reading that Hamas acted at this time in order to thwart a potential Israel - Saudi Arabia peace agreement. Apparently Iran is afraid that this would lessen their power in the middle east, and thus has backed action to goad Israel into war.

I'm not going to say much more than that, as I am far from being an expert on politics/religious strife in the area, but I'm reading a lot of simplistic judgements in this thread that don't seem to tackle the complexity of this situation. There's a lot more going on than meets the eye, but we seem to get stuck on specific details intending to place blame on one side or the other for specific acts that don't speak to the big picture.

Over and above that, just speaking for myself as a Canadian citizen, I am starting to resent protests being brought to our streets attempting to influence opinions on religious wars that have been going on for as long as people have existed there. I am empathetic to the plight of Palestinian people who have been used as pawns in a terrorists' organization whose goal (as stated by their own leadership) has been to eradicate Jews and take back Israel. It's horrible what is going on there, but when every protest I've seen on television has people holding signs that, in effect, say 'give back Gaza to Paletinians', it purveys the idea that the protests aren't about stopping the killing of innocent civilians, but about stepping up the hostilities - fighting a larger war.

The two-state solution, that was being worked on for some decades is a larger issue that would only be able to happen with the elimination of Hamas, and a change in Israel's leadership. Inserting provocative signage into a protest that is supposed to be about protecting innocent civilians shines an entirely different light upon the purpose of the protests. IMHO.

People can protest in this country. More effectively they are contacting their MPs and swaying Canadian government policy. The protestors are against what they see as an Israeli Apartheid system. The accuracy of that depends on when you start the historical clock and how temporary a 56 year occupation is. They see everything through the lens of colonizer and settler. There only relevant question is who is indigenous to the area?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How much should that be held against the Gazans of today, who have never had a choice to elect somebody else since?

I don't know the answer. But this doesn't exactly seem fair.

I see your point, but “Hamas was created by Israeli policies” gets the causality exactly wrong.

[O-tacular]

It is possible to say that Hamas' massacre was evil while also stating that the IDF bombing neighbourhoods and shelters filled with kids as payback is also wrong. Both things can exist. The casualties in both are innocent children. Israel is rapidly losing respect and support carrying on like this.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

People can protest in this country.

Absolutely, and I'm free to state my opinion on how these protests are being conducted.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

More effectively they are contacting their MPs and swaying Canadian government policy. The protestors are against what they see as an Israeli Apartheid system. The accuracy of that depends on when you start the historical clock and how temporary a 56 year occupation is. They see everything through the lens of colonizer and settler. There only relevant question is who is indigenous to the area?

Meanwhile, the scope of the situation is so much broader than a simple 'who has a right to this land' binary argument. Plus, the solution of 'kill the other side so we can have the land' has also not accomplished anything... ever. Nor will it, other than to prolong the hate and the wars/terrorism, and the devastation to the very people who are being victimized by both sides. So what do we actually do about it, and how much of a chance for actual peace occurring by means of some agreement and compromise (by both sides)?

Which is why I am frustrated over these conversations. Again... only IMHO.