Demographics of Europe

[Swede]

Originally Posted by MtnClimber

... but I know for a fact in Germany that Turks are defintly not considered white.

You do realize that those who care about race up here don't consider italians, spaniards, greeks, russians... white, don't you? White would be Germanic and Celtic only.
Like someone upthread said, reality doesn't follow these made-up "racial" lines. There's always been people moving about Europe and there are in fact no "pure races". For example, I may look 100% Scandinavian but I have anscestors way back from Walloonia and Portugal (iirc).

[MtnClimber]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

I don't know of any notable racial incidents against Turks in Germany, if they are so notable you should name them, but I suspect you are talking out of your ass again. Sure there are bound to be incidents seeing how large the Turkish community is in Germany, but nothing out of the "ordinary".
?

It does not matter what i say, because you probably won't belive me anyway

Wow I can't believe the denial that exists from you. There have been numerous articles posted by the Turkish community addressing this very topic, along with major German newspapers. When I was refering to eastern europe. I was speaking of Eastern Germany, where Turks happen to be one of the most disliked ethnic groups. Fortunately in recent years things have changed for the better.

The Magdeberg incident agianst several turks comes to mind. In fact one Turkish man was nearly burned to death. 5 turks also killed in Solingen. If I remeber this was a fairly newsworth incident. There were also some notable firebombings against mosques. If you wish to look up more, go for it. Go see the accounts for yourself from the muslim community.

I am not saying Germans are racist, but to deny the racism that exists against Turks in Europe is silly. You can start with the Journal of the International Institute. That being said I personally believe the vast majority of Europeans are fairly tolerant. And as i stated earlier vast strides have been made.

And as Swede has said, what one person considers white is only a matter of perception anyways.

[DiggerD21]

Shiro doesn't deny that there are attacks against turks. He even doesn't deny that turks are often recognised as such. But this is not because of their skin clour, but more because of their social behaviour, accent and cultural background. Skin colour doesn't play a role here. In fact, I don't know any german who even thought about if turks are "white" or not.


BTW: Today the german statistics bureau presented fresh stats:

15,3 million people in Germany have a migration background. That is 18,6% of Germany's total population. 8 million of them have german citizenship. 96% of these 15,3 million live in West Germany and Berlin.
62% of these people have their roots in Europe (this stats included Turkey).
From all people with migration background have the following % the roots in:
Turkey 14,2%
Russia 9,4%
Poland 6,9%
Italy 4,2%
Romania 3%
Serbia and Montenegro 3% (stats were collected before the country split-up)
Bosnia-Herzegovina 2,3%
Greece 2,2%

Free download of the complete stats here.

[R@ptor]

Originally Posted by MtnClimber

5 turks also killed in Solingen. If I remeber this was a fairly newsworth incident.

That was in 1993, 14 years ago...

[SHiRO]

Soon enough she will be bringing up the Holocaust...

[R@ptor]

/\
I really wouldn't be surprised. Afterall she was banned from this forum because of racist remarks about Muslims on the CE forum. Unfortunately it looks like she was unbanned, but if there is someone who has zero credibility on the issue of racism and absolutely no right to lecture others about it, it's definitely her.

[SHiRO]

She was suspended and barred from CE, people only very rarely get banned and then unbanned.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

And I guess you are talking with some kind of authority here? Like actually being around Turks everyday?

I honestly question your motives of being in this thread also taking into account your deleted post.

And FYI, the vast mayority of Turks do look "white"...

Most Turks look about the same as Albanians, Muslim Yugoslavians and Greeks. These groups are all pretty much the same due to the Ottoman Empire intermixing.

Southern Turkey has some people with mixed Arab (Syrian or Jordanian) ancestry, but they are a minority. Northern Turkey has people of mixed Russian heritage.

For the American concept of race, I would definitely say Turks are "white." In Germany they are not really considered "white" per se, but neither are Albanians, Kosovars, etc.

[Crawford]

To Mtn Climber: Your bigoted a-- does not need to worry about radical Islam from Turkey.

Turkey is brutally secular - observant Muslims are routinely subject to discrimination. Women are 100% banned from wearing the headscarf in all schools (even Universities). Observant rural areas are denied basic services until residents "comply" with secular mores. Pious Muslims have no chance in the professional world.

As an observant Muslim, I have far more rights in the U.S. and Western Europe than in Turkey.

[Nexus6]

Originally Posted by DiggerD21

Shiro doesn't deny that there are attacks against turks. He even doesn't deny that turks are often recognised as such. But this is not because of their skin clour, but more because of their social behaviour, accent and cultural background. Skin colour doesn't play a role here. In fact, I don't know any german who even thought about if turks are "white" or not.

I somewhat agree. If you would ask a random German on the street if Turks are "white", most would probably be puzzled and would not really know what to answer as they never thought about it before. That has to do with the fact that the categories "white" and "non-white" are historically not so established in Germany due to a lack of significant colonial history and contact with "non-whites".

Germans however have a tradition of racially distinguishing themselves from other "whites". Terms such as "südländisch" (literally translated "south landish", roughly meaning "mediterranean") are for instance used to racially describe Turks. But even the term "türkisch" ("Turkish") itself also carries a racial connotation in German and does not just describe a cultural orientation.

[Nexus6]

Originally Posted by Crawford

As an observant Muslim, I have far more rights in the U.S. and Western Europe than in Turkey.

That is indeed true and leads to the strange fact that the Islamic parties in Turkey are keen on an EU membership in the hope to gain more religious freedoms.

[NewYorkYankee]

Since we're on the topic, how do the European people feel about the demographic decline facing native populations? I mean, I'm all for immigration, but since most EU members have a birth rate around 1.2, could we see the extinction of european people? It'd suck to have a Germany with no Germans, a Sweden with no Blondes

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by NewYorkYankee

but since most EU members have a birth rate around 1.2

This is not true and I don't know why this myth keeps perpetuating itself.

But sure immigration is essential. Last year supposedly "in decline" Italy added 300,000 people.

[crisp444]

Originally Posted by liat91

Watch the movie Volver and you might change your mind.

I've seen Volver a few times, actually, and don't really understand your point because most people in that movie are white. I lived in Spain as recently as spring 2006 (a year ago), and will be returning for a month this summer, so I'm very familiar with the country. I'm aware that lots of the cities have significant non-white populations (parts of Valencia, parts Barcelona, parts of southern and western Madrid) but on paper (and through my eyes) Spain is still 90% white or more. To where are you referring?

[NewYorkYankee]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

This is not true and I don't know why this myth keeps perpetuating itself.

But sure immigration is essential. Last year supposedly "in decline" Italy added 300,000 people.

Re-read my post. Yeah, Europe is "growing". But "Europeans" are disappearing.


I mean, new migrants are great, but it would be a sad day for the world if native europeans were to no longer exist.....


BTW, Italy and Germany are both predicted to see their numbers plummet by 2050.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by NewYorkYankee

Re-read my post. Yeah, Europe is "growing". But "Europeans" are disappearing.

No, you said that "most" EU member states have a birthrate of 1.2. This is not true!

I mean, new migrants are great, but it would be a sad day for the world if native europeans were to no longer exist.....

Sigh...

BTW, Italy and Germany are both predicted to see their numbers plummet by 2050.

Double sigh...


When are we ever going to have a debate about European issues without bullshit like this popping up around here...?

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by crisp444

Spain is still 90% white or more.

And when are Americans going to learn that not everyone views race in such simplictic terms?

The biggest immigrant groups in Spain are Moroccans, Romanians, people from other EU states and Latin Americans --- all "white" (or partly white in case of latin Americans).

[NewYorkYankee]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

No, you said that "most" EU member states have a birthrate of 1.2. This is not true!

Maybe I should have phrased that better, so here goes:


People of ethnically european descent (the white people, if we want to be crass about it), are seeing their replacement rates plummet to the level I stated (which is the low 1's)


Okay, so maybe the muslims/africans/asians are growing, that's all well and good. But my question is what is Europe's plan to deal with the erosion of it's native people?

[crisp444]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

And when are Americans going to learn that not everyone views race in such simplictic terms?

The biggest immigrant groups in Spain are Moroccans, Romanians, people from other EU states and Latin Americans --- all "white" (or partly white in case of latin Americans).

And when are you going to learn to respond to people in this forum without coming across as so arrogant?

If you knew anything about me you'd know that I quite often correct people's misconceptions about race and ethnicity. Why are you responding to me as if I have a simplistic way of viewing this? I have studied race/ethnicity extensively and am well-versed in the subject. I challenge you to find something wrong with my statement that Spain is 90% "white" or more. I never claimed, nor would I ever try to claim, that all of the Moroccans or Latin Americans were not "white."

Don't jump to attack people so quickly.

[Nexus6]

Originally Posted by NewYorkYankee

I'm all for immigration, but since most EU members have a birth rate around 1.2, could we see the extinction of european people?

Extinction will take some while but we will very soon see natives become the minority in their countries much like the native Indians in the US. Talking about Germany for instance, these number have just been reported last week:

http://www.welt.de/politik/article85...ntergrund.html

- 30% of all German children below age 5 are migrants or children of migrants
- In several German cities immigrant children are well above 60%. For instance Nuremberg (67%), Frankfurt (65%), Düsseldorf (64%) and Stuttgart (64%).