Joint Regional Transportation Agency

[Keith P.]

I have long had an issue with how the word “privilege” has had its meaning twisted in recent times. It used to mean some sort of fairly narrow authority or ability bestowed upon or earned by somebody or some group. Now it seems to be thrown around as a pejorative term when someone doesn’t like someone else’s position on an issue in an attempt to discredit them.

[OldDartmouthMark]

An older, wiser boss I had once told me that life is full of illusions, and most people just choose the illusions that most fit what they want to believe.

All I can say is that I see more smoke and mirrors being employed in these times than I've ever witnessed before in my life.

[Leem]

Being new to this thread, I must say all of this foolish arguing is making it hard to find useful information. It is pointless and ridiculous. Let's keep this on topic.

Anyway, being an HRM native and living in Greater St. John's at the moment, I can say that although flawed, HRM's transit network is massively more accessible than here in NL.

It's really too bad a commuter train along the 102 corridor is out of the question at the moment. The CN issue is unfortunate as there is a perfectly good rail line with plenty of potential users for about 100km.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Leem

Being new to this thread, I must say all of this foolish arguing is making it hard to find useful information. It is pointless and ridiculous. Let's keep this on topic.

Thanks so much for the gratuitous scolding. Who knew the sanctimonious secret forum police were lurking...

This is a discussion board. People discuss stuff here.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Leem

It's really too bad a commuter train along the 102 corridor is out of the question at the moment. The CN issue is unfortunate as there is a perfectly good rail line with plenty of potential users for about 100km.

A lot of that discussion was covered in the thread linked below:
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=140589

There's a lot of reading (66 pages), but most of your questions should be answered there. You might have to wade through some off-topic discussion from time to time, however...

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

A lot of that discussion was covered in the thread linked below:
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=140589

There's a lot of reading (66 pages), but most of your questions should be answered there. You might have to wade through some off-topic discussion from time to time, however...

"Off topic", whatever do you mean Mark,LOL!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

"Off topic", whatever do you mean Mark,LOL!

It happens from time to time, I suppose...

[Empire]

Where is the rail?


HRM Gridlock:

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/halifax-...tudy-1.6344927

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Empire

Where is the rail?


HRM Gridlock:

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/halifax-...tudy-1.6344927

Where is the Tunnel?

[someone123]

It is funny how they present Phase I and Phase II of the ferry as being about the same when I is the talking about phase and II is the doing phase; traditionally the problem.

With those timelines you see why things are getting worse. 3 more years to get the ferry going but the city is growing at 5% per year. Even if all of the projects being debated today are built, traffic will be more congested by the time they're done. Hopefully the JRTA will lead to follow-through on some very ambitious projects. I don't think it would be excessive to build a bunch of things all at once: MacKay replacement, Windsor St exchange, 102 corridor, Mill Cove ferry, BRT (4 lines), LRT (1-2 lines). I wonder if more standard ferries and buses will be needed as well.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is funny how they present Phase I and Phase II of the ferry as being about the same when I is the talking about phase and II is the doing phase; traditionally the problem.

With those timelines you see why things are getting worse. 3 more years to get the ferry going but the city is growing at 5% per year. Even if all of the projects being debated today are built, traffic will be more congested by the time they're done. Hopefully the JRTA will lead to follow-through on some very ambitious projects. I don't think it would be excessive to build a bunch of things all at once: MacKay replacement, Windsor St exchange, 102 corridor, Mill Cove ferry, BRT (4 lines), LRT (1-2 lines). I wonder if more standard ferries and buses will be needed as well.

What's really important is that we avoid traffic volumes grow at the same rate as population. I think it's time to consider having congestion pricing which would simultaneously incentivize people to shift onto transit and other modes, make transit faster by freeing it from congestion, while raising money for infrastructure. If we just wait for all this stuff to be built, not only will congestion be much greater by then but more of the newcomers will have become motorists making it a tougher sell for them to shift later.

[Empire]

Might need to build a permanent extended ferry dock at each location and add 2-4 electric high capacity fast ferries for Alderney and Woodside so there is no agonizing wait for a ferry. Also, have ferry runs extend operating times.

Constant ferry runs at a normal speed.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Empire

Where is the rail?


HRM Gridlock:

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/halifax-...tudy-1.6344927

I think it’s a small blessing that so much of this recent population surge has taken the form of centrally located, multi-unit development, which presumably generates more active transport and transit trips, and fewer/shorter car trips. If the city was developing in the sprawling manner of 10-20 years ago, but adding the same number of people, congestion moving on and off the peninsula would be even worse.

That said, it’s certainly deteriorated quickly, and will clearly continue to. I briefly thought during that ridiculous bridge closure/parade of lights/downtown shopping/ gridlock yesterday that it’d be great if Tim Houston were caught in the gridlock himself, and finally had a brainwave that rapid-transit funding can’t be kicked down the road any longer.

[fatscat]

I'm surprised to see the Mill Cove ferry first mentioned as a means of reducing traffic volume. That said, this article is very slim but I can't help .. say something!

I'm trying to be objective, but this is a proposed terminal that is near very little residential (with no concrete plans for more development yet) and a large parking lot, likely to encourage park & ride, but will the ferry (+ any other pre/post departure transfers or walking) be fast enough to get car-dependent residents of Bedford to switch? I genuinely don't think it will be at or neat capacity for most weekdays.

All this tells me this ferry will be more used for leisure (weekend downtown trips) rather than commuting.

I love that we're building well sized medium density in the ~5km-from-downtown neighbourhoods. North End, Fairview, and the West End in particular. With affordable tweaks/upgrades in public transit & active infrastructure, these neighbourhoods are likely to see a significant reduction in vehicle usage for getting around.

[someone123]

I don't have the link but studies did show a significant time advantage and it'll likely just grow in the future. Another factor is that buses can connect to the ferry.

The lack of any clear large-scale plans for developments around the Bedford waterfront and Mill Cove is too bad. There's so much development pressure but that area has barely changed since the 2000's. It's really true of all the waterfront sites around the city, whether it's Bedford, Halifax, or Dartmouth. There's some development but it's slower than average.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I think it’s a small blessing that so much of this recent population surge has taken the form of centrally located, multi-unit development, which presumably generates more active transport and transit trips, and fewer/shorter car trips.

It will also generate a new kind of demand for transit around the urban core though, and that kind of service is different from the rush hour commuter-oriented transit services. Something like a tram line with underground portions would address this demand for frequent higher capacity service in high density but relatively compact geographical areas.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I think all of this points to the fact that Halifax and surrounding areas are far behind in transit development, as has been discussed on this forum ad nauseam.

Back in the 1990s they were talking about a fast ferry from Bedford, and finally 30 years later it's going to happen. In the 2000s they were talking about rail transit, which doesn't look like it has a clear path to ever happening.

Meanwhile, rather than having implemented forms of transit using untapped infrastructure (specifically, the harbour and rail ROWs), we are chopping up the only existing infrastructure (the roads) to add more buses and underused cycling infrastructure.

The result is that we are complaining about more road traffic because for most people, the best option is still using their motor vehicle to get around. As much as some like to fantasize about making life more difficult and expensive for people who choose to drive their vehicles, it's going to come down to making better options that improve peoples' lives (which is the job of our elected politicians). You can try all day to force people out of their cars, but with the weather we have around here, sitting in your car in traffic is still better than waiting outside for 20 minutes for a bus that's still going to be stuck in traffic a good part of the time, or riding your bicycle to work and arriving there wet, tired, and sweaty (not to mention that it's not a great option for families, older people, etc.).

Too little, too late, and the provincial government is still talking about doubling our population without viable transit plans that will bring us into the future without a drastic reduction in quality of life.

At least the increased ferry service is a step in the right direction, as much as people complain about it. These conversations seem odd sometimes as it seems like we are weighing our options like we can only have one item on our wish list (like we should have rail transit instead of ferries), when we should be shooting for all of the above. Make transit the best option (timely, efficient, comfortable) and you won't have to force people out of their cars - they will choose transit as their best option for most trips.

Another part of the conversation that I find strange is that they are bringing ferry service into an area that's underdeveloped. Seems like a bit of chicken and egg discussion to me - improved transit will make a living area more attractive and more dense building options will become a better business case of the developers. I can think of a few areas of Bedford that have been waiting to be developed for some time where the ferry could provide the tipping point for development to happen, just as has been discussed about development happening around rail transit nodes. Just up the road is Hammonds Plains, which has a lot of potential for development that could happen if a transit system was created that could coordinate rail or bus service to the Bedford ferry terminal.

The main problem, as I see it, is that the city/province isn't thinking this through, and we get stuck on small things so that the larger, important items take forever to happen, if they happen at all.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think it's time to consider having congestion pricing which would simultaneously incentivize people to shift onto transit and other modes, make transit faster by freeing it from congestion, while raising money for infrastructure.

You can't incentivize people to abandon their existing mode and move onto a totally dysfunctional mode such as present-day Transit. Try to put a $10/car trip fee on entering the peninsula would be the best way to cause a revolt and quite possibly even violence. Certainly it would be the career end for those currently on Council, not that it would be a bad thing.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fatscat

I'm surprised to see the Mill Cove ferry first mentioned as a means of reducing traffic volume. That said, this article is very slim but I can't help .. say something!

I'm trying to be objective, but this is a proposed terminal that is near very little residential (with no concrete plans for more development yet) and a large parking lot, likely to encourage park & ride, but will the ferry (+ any other pre/post departure transfers or walking) be fast enough to get car-dependent residents of Bedford to switch? I genuinely don't think it will be at or neat capacity for most weekdays.

All this tells me this ferry will be more used for leisure (weekend downtown trips) rather than commuting.

I love that we're building well sized medium density in the ~5km-from-downtown neighbourhoods. North End, Fairview, and the West End in particular. With affordable tweaks/upgrades in public transit & active infrastructure, these neighbourhoods are likely to see a significant reduction in vehicle usage for getting around.

IIRC the capacity for the fast ferries proposed is 400 souls. The trip was proposed to take 30 minutes, which I believe was the frequency of departures (I could be wrong on that but obvs. it depends on the number of boats and crews). I don't know how many people need to go from Bedford to the Water St terminal daily but it is probably not a huge number as compared to those going to other destinations for which the ferry would not be a viable landing spot. So I suspect your point is accurate.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

You can't incentivize people to abandon their existing mode and move onto a totally dysfunctional mode such as present-day Transit. Try to put a $10/car trip fee on entering the peninsula would be the best way to cause a revolt and quite possibly even violence. Certainly it would be the career end for those currently on Council, not that it would be a bad thing.

I often disagree with Keith on stuff like this but I think this is right. (Though I don't think congestion pricing would incite violence.)

When balancing the merits of carrots and sticks to get people onto transit, carrots are certainly the way to go right now, given how much room for improvement there is. Penalizing people for driving, and presenting anything less than excellent transit service as the alternative, will only lead to a counterproductive negative reaction. People flipped out when council suggested charging for downtown parking on Saturdays; imagine if they were told there was a toll just to drive over the harbour or into downtown. It's a moot point anyway because I don't think it would ever pass council, at least not until A: congestion is even worse and B: transit is a more viable option for more people.

We need true rapid transit into the core, servicing far more people. Then we can talk congestion pricing.