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  #5921  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 3:10 AM
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Military Related Development

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Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
This is extremely interesting RFPCME. When will there be a definitive announcement on whether Utah is chosen or not, and how many jobs again did you say this would generate? Was it in the 5000 range? I was also curious as to the supply of engineers. Wouldn't it be easy enough for Hill AFB to glean engineers from nearby areas such as California? I was thinking that the Airforce would prefer to operate in Utah, over say a place like New England or California, and it seems it would be easy enough to attract engineers from around the country. Hill has never had a problem attracting personnel before, and I think the local universities have also proven an ability to expand quickly their programs.

This seems like a really big economic development for the region. Sorry for all the questions, but now you really have me interested in the prospects that this could generate.
Delts: Your questions are good ones. First, the number of contractor jobs associated with Cyber Command.

When DoD estimates the economic impact of starting up (or closing) a facility, the rule-of-thumb is that for every direct Government employee (uniform or civilian), there is at least 5 contractor jobs. This ratio is growing because it is so much more cost effective to use private contractors than direct government employees. Even in a war zone, like Iraq, there are several thousand more contractors than uniform personnel, performing every task imaginable to support combat personnel and, rarely, even the combat.

What is especially intriguing about Cyber Command is the ratio is 10 to 1, because of the nature of the mission (information warfare). The beginning estimate for Cyber Command, which could happen before the end of this year, is for a minimum of 500 direct Government employees. So the contractor tail will be at least 5,000. The number of direct Government employees will grow, especially if the Air Force takes the lead in information warfare, which the experts believe will happen.

Second the contractor jobs associated with Cyber Command...these jobs will be very different from most of the traditional jobs at Hill--people involved in the supply, maintenance, repair, and sustainment of aircraft and missiles. Much of the work of the new Cyber Command will be the management of research and development, most of which will take place outside of Utah. So the jobs associated with this Command are very high-end, sophisticated positions, which is not to degrade the jobs currently at Hill. It is just to say the contractor influx will bring different types of employees, most very highly educated and technically oriented.

Where will the people for Cyber Command come from? The answer to this question, more than anything else, will determine whether Cyber Command comes to Utah. Having an adequate supply of local engineering/scientific talent is the most critical issue to be solved. Hill, like most other DoD facilities, never has enough highly skilled technical talent. Only areas like the Bay Area, Boston, and the DC/Northern VA areas have enough university systems close by to support the technical demand. Now that I think about it, there is always a critical shortage of technical talent in the DC/Northern VA area as well.

In addition, with all the base closings taking place over the last 20 years, there are good data available that show when one based is closed and the mission of the base is moved somewhere else, usually less than 20% of the critical workforce makes the move. A classic example of this in now underway with the transfer of the Nation's Missile Defense Agency from the DC-area to Huntsville AL. Current estimates are that as few as 10% of the critical workforce will actually move. And Huntsville, the Princeton NJ of the South, is a VERY desirable place to live for a variety of reasons.

So I am beginning to become more convinced every day that the establishment of Cyber Command at Hill is pretty much a done deal if there is a reasonable answer for attracting and keeping the level of talent necessary to support the Command. But the ability to do that is still a very large question, which spawned my post a few days ago of creating a new University in Utah called the Utah Technological Institute, which would provide part of the solution. I assume many readers saw that idea and logically assumed I was mentally impaired, which might well be true.

Sorry for the long post.
     
     
  #5922  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 3:38 AM
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Thanks for answering my questions RFPCME. Please keep us up-to-date with any breaking news giving an indication that this project is getting closer to becoming a reality here in Utah. The potential growth that something like this would create for the area is kind of mind blowing.
     
     
  #5923  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 1:05 PM
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Brought over from SLC Rundown Page

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Originally Posted by TANGELD_SLC View Post
Well I have been browsing Skyscraperpage for a bit and at this moment I'm VERY disappointed in Salt Lake City's skyline right now. There are only 36 structures on the SLC diagram. Our tallest building is a mere 422 feet high. What I want to know is why haven't we broken the 750ft mark, or even the 500ft mark. We should have WAY more skyscrapers on our list. I'm not trying to be pessimistic, it's just the growth we are experiencing isn't that impressive when put into perspective to other cities in our country, let alone the world. For instance, did you know that all the projects proposed and under construction in Salt Lake combined equal only 1.5% of what is being developed and spent in Dubai?
It's a bit depressing.
Salt Lake needs something BIG. Really, REALLY big. (over 1000ft)
Anybody agree?

Yes I agree, but I think we should shoot for the 500' mark first, then 750' and then maybe 1000', 422 to 1000 might be a little drastic . I'm not sure I ever see SLC going much over 50-55 floors, which could put us anywhere from 800 - 900 depending on the top they put on it. I would be satisfied with a spattering of 500' - 750' towers, maybe 5-8 of them, that would drastically change the skyline, even a few more mixed in there around the 400-500' mark would ad some nice density to our ever improving skyline, and maybe a tallest of around 900'. While I would like a 1000' tower I don't think SLC skyline necesarily needs something that tall to be a dramatic skyline, we have one thing that sets our skyline apart from any other city in the country and world, our amazing Wasatch Mountains.

With the rate that SLC and Utah is growing economically, even in an economic downturn, combined with the residential construction taking place in and around the cbd, I honestly expect that very soon (within a year) after the economy rebounds, that the announcment will be made breaking the 500' mark. What a happy day that will be for all us forum geeks.
     
     
  #5924  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 1:06 PM
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Thanks delts! It would be nice to have some way to convey these ideas to the Boyer company... anyone have a contact?
I would like to see this forum become sort of a clearing-house of opinion on what should be done to improve the aesthetic of Gateway. I think constructive, doable tweaking is not out of our ability of influence. I would especially like to start with the clock tower and the west wall of the Miller theatre. Keep in touch with me about it leerjet. If your serious, or anyone else is serious, lets agree to do something about it. You would be surprised what a consesus on a forum like this could do, if you get a few key people from Boyer and or Gateway interests reading this website.

Last edited by delts145; Jul 11, 2008 at 1:21 PM.
     
     
  #5925  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 1:14 PM
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I think one simple solution would be to brick the clock tower in a very distinctive looking dramatic brick. That would go a long way in improving the the look of the entire center. It is natural that changes will be made as the years go by. Think about how many times all the malls in the valley have been remodeled inside over the years. Basically there will come a time when Gateway will need to be remodeled/redecorated, and I'm sure at that time stucco will be long out of fashion.

It would be nice to see the tower covered in brick sonner than later, though. While I like that ideas are being put out there I'm not a huge fan of putting screens on the clock tower. I think there are places in dt that screen would work, just not in the gateway, maybe more central in the cbd somewhere, like in the theater/arts district, maybe on the corner of the building that Oliver Garden is in.
     
     
  #5926  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 3:32 PM
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Agreed Future Mayor, Something as simple as replicating the Depot's materials and trim would be a big improvement over the current look.
That stucco top just doesn't look like someone took the time to give a damn.

     
     
  #5927  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 5:19 PM
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A couple 500+ footers would do wonders for SLC skyline. I'm envious of places like Charlotte.
     
     
  #5928  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 5:22 PM
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Comparing what is happening in Dubai and SLC is hilarious...

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Yes I agree, but I think we should shoot for the 500' mark first, then 750' and then maybe 1000', 422 to 1000 might be a little drastic . I'm not sure I ever see SLC going much over 50-55 floors, which could put us anywhere from 800 - 900 depending on the top they put on it. I would be satisfied with a spattering of 500' - 750' towers, maybe 5-8 of them, that would drastically change the skyline, even a few more mixed in there around the 400-500' mark would ad some nice density to our ever improving skyline, and maybe a tallest of around 900'. While I would like a 1000' tower I don't think SLC skyline necesarily needs something that tall to be a dramatic skyline, we have one thing that sets our skyline apart from any other city in the country and world, our amazing Wasatch Mountains.

With the rate that SLC and Utah is growing economically, even in an economic downturn, combined with the residential construction taking place in and around the cbd, I honestly expect that very soon (within a year) after the economy rebounds, that the announcment will be made breaking the 500' mark. What a happy day that will be for all us forum geeks.
When Tangled_SLC brought up comparing SLC with Dubai, he forgot to consider that any city in the world, including NYC, pales to the capital investment and available money to invent Dubai. I was there
2 years ago. Strange city...amazing architecture. Dubai has unlimited money plus it has the plan in place there is to have Monte Carlo plus Las Vegas, Miami and every other resort city times a thousand. Money is readily available. Dubai, at this point in time, is built way beyond the need already BUT the need will be filled.

Also to Tangled_SLC: Salt Lake City is growing and expanding. Some cities skylines are dictated to the immense concentration of business in a central core. The central core was predefined many times by the physical layout.

Cities in valleys rarely have amazing skylines. Denver has a few larger buildings but you will see far more 20 story buildings than 50 story buildings.
Also, you will notice that only 1 building since the 1980's has considerable height. They built during their boom need.

SLC also has the wide streets and it is a downhill downtown. What you see is an illusion that many of the larger buildings appear small as viewed from a distance. Obviously this is because buildings lose 50 to 150 feet as the location goes south. If the streets were narrow and on a flat plain, I guaranty the downtown would look considerably more impressive.

Does anyone know the elevation drop from South Temple to 5th south. It has to be considerable...relatively considerable.

No matter how fast SLC is growing, there has to be the infrastructure both financially and NEED. You cannot just build 500-900 foot buildings if you cannot fill them. Large high rise construction takes a lot of ready tenants to make it even viable to think about construction.

I think if shale oil is sought out as a viable medium that does not destroy precious land (LOL...yeah right) then you will see a very focused business investment (ie high rise construction) in downtown SLC and Denver. The need will be there and the people to fill the need will want their Headquarters or central dynamic offices to be in proximity.

While no one will mistake the SLC skyline for the NYC skyline (unless they are blind), there is no need to lament the SLC skyline. It is growing and will grow. The point is that SLC is creating a desirable environment area where the downtown is located. An attractive and now awareness based downtown does wonders to attract people who before were uninterested.

Bottom line: The money has to be there and this money invested has to see a
viable return. A return that has to happen quickly and not 20 years down the line.
     
     
  #5929  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 5:30 PM
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A couple 500+ footers would do wonders for SLC skyline. I'm envious of places like Charlotte.
Charlotte is not nearly as cool as SLC but it is also the financial capitol of a very populous area between DC and Atlanta.

The need was there and humongous companies and banks (Wychovia, Bank of America etc were there. There are no such business investors currently in SLC.

There is a big difference between having a branch and having a headquarters. There will be a time when some major corporations will want to headquarter.

There is very little need to envy Charlotte. Now Chapel Hill and the triangle are a different story.
     
     
  #5930  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 5:34 PM
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I'm on the same page with you Rick,

Brought forward from SLC Rundown Thread
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I seriously doubt your figure Tangeld. For one, just CCC alone represents two billion, and many construction experts would say that that figure in reality is ridiculously low. I would have to assume that you are not talking about buildings and infrastructure in general, but skyscrapers only!

Comparing practically any American or European city to Dubai at this juncture really doesn't work out as apples and apples. Even New York or Chicago pales when it comes to 'new-build' Skyscrapers. Salt Lake metro is and has been one of the four to five fastest growing CSA's in the nation for quite a few years now. No, most of the ten's of billions of dollars being poured into construction in the area since the mid-nineties has not been in towers. But considering that much of it has gone to critical infrastructure such as one of the most agressive mass-transit, freeway, surface street upgrades and build-ups on the continent is extremely positive. Additional billions have gone into or are currently being spent on monumental landmarks like the new library, conference center, CCC, the Cottonwood, RSL stadium, numerous and major TOD's all over the metro, etc.,etc. Just our little 'Metro Gold Coast' of major ski resorts alone, have invested billions in infrastructure over the past ten years.

Hey, I'm as anxious as anyone to see more 600-700 footers downtown, and they will come. This metro is and always has been a cautious environment when it comes to towers. Maybe considering it has the most up-close, dramatic backdrop of any major metro on the continent, could be a reason why most haven't felt an overwhelming urge to build something manmade, when it could never compare with what Mother Nature has already constructed.

Like you, I for one would like to see a dramatic skyline to compliment our unrivaled backdrop. At the rate this area is growing, it will happen far sooner than later. Right now, I am glad that comparitively speaking to much of the rest of the nation, "Salt Lake City Metro is Booming big time."

Maybe I'm more in to the endless outdoor activities that I can take advantage of only minutes from my urban door. I'll take that over the 'Hell on earth' landscape of Dubai any day! But ultimately Tangled, Yes I agree, "Get off your butts already, you local visionaries out there." "Give us a skyline to match the Wasatch urbanscape!"

Afternoon office break, Salt Lake City Style.


Seamus 2008, looking toward U. of U. Campus

Neighborhood Urban Trails and endless options



.

Last edited by delts145; Jul 11, 2008 at 7:01 PM.
     
     
  #5931  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 6:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
I would like to see this forum become sort of a clearing-house of opinion on what should be done to improve the aesthetic of Gateway. I think constructive, doable tweaking is not out of our ability of influence. I would especially like to start with the clock tower and the west wall of the Miller theatre. Keep in touch with me about it leerjet. If your serious, or anyone else is serious, lets agree to do something about it. You would be surprised what a consesus on a forum like this could do, if you get a few key people from Boyer and or Gateway interests reading this website.
Yeah I think its interesting that the designers of the Gateway made no effort (other than Dick's Sporting Goods) to use building materials complimentary to the neighborhood. More brick would be nice but I just don't see any incentives for them to make such an upgrade. Maybe once the CCC is completed and provides some serious competition for retail $$$ you might see Boyer n pals ditch the cheap and nasty pastel stucco mentality.
     
     
  #5932  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 6:17 PM
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For years Salt Lake's skyline has been boring and a joke for a city of it's size. With all the new Tower projects in the works or being planned in the near future I think SLC is now at the turning point of really becoming a great city with a eye catching skyline.
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  #5933  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 6:19 PM
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It's not charlotte itself I am jealous of, it's all the towers it has/is getting. I realize it is a headquarters city, but I just think it would be cool to have a skyline comparable to Charlotte as it is a similar sized metro.
     
     
  #5934  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 6:44 PM
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Unfortunately...

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It's not charlotte itself I am jealous of, it's all the towers it has/is getting. I realize it is a headquarters city, but I just think it would be cool to have a skyline comparable to Charlotte as it is a similar sized metro.
While it is larger than SLC, it is not that much larger but it has always had a business focus of companies that were not local but national.

There has to be a reason to build these kind of buildings. Not a "I hope we can be successful so lets build a major tower".

The point is that Charlotte and other cities have a history of decades with major corporations. It is the only reason that Omaha and Des Moines have major buildings. In Omaha...it is an insurance center with the side benefit of having a citizen name Warren Buffet who has made sure Omaha will remain the capitol of his enterprise.

Des Moines has The Rockwell group and the Principal Financial Group. Both of these companies have taken big hits this year but they did build the size of buildings that are large and commanding.

Salt Lake City does not have any all encompassing major corporations to command such a move.

It will come but if you know of that kind of corporation in SLC...that is liquid and a financial monolith then let me know because I cannot remember any.

The closest I can recall is Kennecott Copper. Where is there home office now?...they did build the copper clad building. Now Zions or whatever.
     
     
  #5935  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 6:48 PM
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I do love that picture of the University of Utah!

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I'm on the same page with you Rick,

Brought forward from SLC Rundown Thread
Wonderful fall shot! Who was the photographer?
     
     
  #5936  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 7:03 PM
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^^^
I love the shot too, but have never been able to find a credit for the specific photographer.

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Originally Posted by WASDEN View Post
Yeah I think its interesting that the designers of the Gateway made no effort (other than Dick's Sporting Goods) to use building materials complimentary to the neighborhood. More brick would be nice but I just don't see any incentives for them to make such an upgrade. Maybe once the CCC is completed and provides some serious competition for retail $$$ you might see Boyer n pals ditch the cheap and nasty pastel stucco mentality.
Good point about the competition with CCC Wasden.
     
     
  #5937  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 7:46 PM
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I was lookin at a Topographic map of downtown. Its really hard to read, but i think the elevation drop from South Temple to 4th South is about 80 feet. At least thats what it looks like to me.

http://nrwrt1.nr.state.ut.us/quads/q024/pq1219.gif
     
     
  #5938  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 7:55 PM
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Salt Lake City does not have any all encompassing major corporations to command such a move.
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  #5939  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 8:24 PM
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Its you notice the roof of the clock tower at the Gateway Mall is a copy of part of the roof of the Union Pacific building. Just barley, but they did it. Yea, a new color scheme especially for the clock tower would be nice.
     
     
  #5940  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 8:36 PM
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The TRAX wires going down South Temple block the view of the Gateway sign on the front of the Union Pacific Building. I thought it would be a good idea for Boyer to place a gateway sign, either horizontally or vertically, on the clock tower as a visual marker for those who are not familiar with the location of the Gateway.
     
     
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