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  #5901  
Old Posted May 28, 2015, 8:10 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Apparently, it's Town vs. Gown on the issue of building height:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loca...empe-asu-odds-high-rise-towers/28075795/
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  #5902  
Old Posted May 28, 2015, 8:13 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
Apparently, it's Town vs. Gown on the issue of building height:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loca...empe-asu-odds-high-rise-towers/28075795/
What a jerk. He wants to protect his empire. I'm not exactly sure why this project bothers him other than it overshadows ASU mid-rise development in the area. I wish he'd get on board and build something over 6 stories rather than complaining about everyone else.
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  #5903  
Old Posted May 28, 2015, 8:14 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Do go on...
He was answering by brain fart as to the name of the proposed development on washington and priest.
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  #5904  
Old Posted May 28, 2015, 8:14 PM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
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He asked for the name of the project and I provided insight.

Sorry PHX but the size of the lease (via a LOI) would not warrant construction financing for the a project the size of either 100 MIll or The Grand. Those projects are more suited for a single anchor/ corporate campus. I know there was an article not too long ago in the Biz Journal saying the Phoenix area was at a disadvantage because we not have a lot of "shovel ready" spec developments within the pipeline to attact these large end users.
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  #5905  
Old Posted May 28, 2015, 8:22 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Originally Posted by azsunsurfer View Post
He asked for the name of the project and I provided insight.

Sorry PHX but the size of the lease (via a LOI) would not warrant construction financing for the a project the size of either 100 MIll or The Grand. Those projects are more suited for a single anchor/ corporate campus. I know there was an article not too long ago in the Biz Journal saying the Phoenix area was at a disadvantage because we not have a lot of "shovel ready" spec developments within the pipeline to attact these large end users.
I agree, nobody's moving dirt for that, but if they were already under construction they'd be great fits. That's what I mean by saying they missed out because they weren't speculative, or at least not fast enough. Who knows, companies grow and need more space. They could end up at The Grand eventually.
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  #5906  
Old Posted May 28, 2015, 8:23 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11 View Post
What a jerk. He wants to protect his empire. I'm not exactly sure why this project bothers him other than it overshadows ASU mid-rise development in the area. I wish he'd get on board and build something over 6 stories rather than complaining about everyone else.
Okay... took me a minute. Crow is mad because this preempts his hotel/conference project that was USA Place. That's why he's objecting. He should've never killed the deal.
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  #5907  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 4:53 AM
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TakeFive TakeFive is offline
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Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11 View Post
Okay... took me a minute. Crow is mad because this preempts his hotel/conference project that was USA Place. That's why he's objecting. He should've never killed the deal.
Does that fall into the 'nobody likes to get beat at their own game' category?
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  #5908  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 5:32 AM
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Butta Butta is offline
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Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11 View Post
Okay... took me a minute. Crow is mad because this preempts his hotel/conference project that was USA Place. That's why he's objecting. He should've never killed the deal.
Indeed, you're so right, how can he say that when USA Place was to have similar heights deeper into campus? Joker..
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  #5909  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 9:02 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Did Crow include any actual facts to support his opposition to the project? If your main argument is "I think higher buildings should go near the lake," why would you expect a City to force a developer to decrease the size of their project, and lose the associated development fees and sales tax revenue? I'm so sick of ASU when it comes to actually building urban environments. If you listened to one of their sustainability or urban planning lectures, you'd think this was an institution who held things like density, street interaction, pedestrian scale, etc. in high regard. And, yet, every project they've built in Tempe and Phoenix has been a design failure.

The student housing along Apache and any of the low-rise, mono-use buildings downtown were bad enough. But, I can't believe he referenced College Ave Commons as some sort of success - what was promoted as being a connection between downtown and the campus is a stumpy, over-designed building that pulled its only public amenities away from the street (why in the world is the wine bar on the 2nd floor?), leaving long stretches of dead space along 7th Street. If that is an indication of what is yet to come from any ASU projects in that part of downtown, then it's a huge shame because it completely misses the mark when it comes to blending the campus and city center, and similar projects will ultimately create a wall between the two.

A program so focused on sustainability and urbanism should support any project that brings additional housing options for a range of demographics to a city's core. If this is really about the hotel potentially stealing market share from an ASU-owned hotel/conference center, that's too bad. You've sat on the Mill/University property for how long now? Not to mention, I believe the ASU project is planned to include a pretty sizeable conference center component - as in more than the standard amount. Without knowing the brand for either project, it's hard to say, but if 7S lands a more lifestyle-oriented brand, then meetings and events won't be a huge component of its business model anyway.
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  #5910  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 9:33 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Hopefully, 7S is built as proposed so that at least one part of University gets some height. Here is a rendering and description for the Ash and University project, set for Fall 2016 completion: http://www.albdev.com/the-places/index.aspx?pageID=69

6 lame stories that won't even cover the massive parking garages that surround it. There is 45k square feet of retail, which is the approximate size of a typical Whole Foods, so that means the ground level will be entirely dedicated to them; Ash will probably be nothing but windows, a garage ramp, and loading dock. Combined with the parking structures mentioned above and others like it that are scattered about Ash, this will essentially kill off any chance of it becoming any sort of walkable commercial street that extends downtown to the west. The already worthless streetcar will look great running down a boulevard of garages.

I actually think it shouldn't receive approval. 170 units on one of the last remaining sites downtown along one of the busiest intersections in the entire Valley? Won't happen, though, because the words "grocery store" are the obsession of every enthusiast of every growing downtown in America.

It's great that there will finally be an urban grocery store in Arizona. But, that shouldn't come at the expense of the overall vision for Tempe. The whole appeal of the original Mosaic proposal was that the Whole Foods would be in the center of major residential projects along both Ash and Farmer that would generate the foot traffic for the store to be useful and successful. What good is an urban grocery store if it's high-end, on the edge of the downtown, and surrounded by: towers planned as condos but now filled by students with little disposable income, two lowrise senior housing projects with income restrictions, dirt lots, and parking garages?

I hope a Whole Foods can actually survive and become an amenity for a growing population of a wide range of demographics all within nearby projects that are well-designed, etc. But, between this and the shit ASU is likely to turn the College Ave area into, the possibility of "Mill Ave" becoming "Downtown Tempe" starts to seem less likely... which is fine, but still disappointing when the potential is so obvious.
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  #5911  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 12:51 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
why in the world is the wine bar on the 2nd floor?
Are you referring to Postino? That's on the first floor with a large patio addressing the street. Or are you referring to another wine bar on College?
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  #5912  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 1:14 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
Hopefully, 7S is built as proposed so that at least one part of University gets some height. Here is a rendering and description for the Ash and University project, set for Fall 2016 completion: http://www.albdev.com/the-places/index.aspx?pageID=69

6 lame stories that won't even cover the massive parking garages that surround it. There is 45k square feet of retail, which is the approximate size of a typical Whole Foods, so that means the ground level will be entirely dedicated to them; Ash will probably be nothing but windows, a garage ramp, and loading dock. Combined with the parking structures mentioned above and others like it that are scattered about Ash, this will essentially kill off any chance of it becoming any sort of walkable commercial street that extends downtown to the west. The already worthless streetcar will look great running down a boulevard of garages.

I actually think it shouldn't receive approval. 170 units on one of the last remaining sites downtown along one of the busiest intersections in the entire Valley? Won't happen, though, because the words "grocery store" are the obsession of every enthusiast of every growing downtown in America.

It's great that there will finally be an urban grocery store in Arizona. But, that shouldn't come at the expense of the overall vision for Tempe. The whole appeal of the original Mosaic proposal was that the Whole Foods would be in the center of major residential projects along both Ash and Farmer that would generate the foot traffic for the store to be useful and successful. What good is an urban grocery store if it's high-end, on the edge of the downtown, and surrounded by: towers planned as condos but now filled by students with little disposable income, two lowrise senior housing projects with income restrictions, dirt lots, and parking garages?

I hope a Whole Foods can actually survive and become an amenity for a growing population of a wide range of demographics all within nearby projects that are well-designed, etc. But, between this and the shit ASU is likely to turn the College Ave area into, the possibility of "Mill Ave" becoming "Downtown Tempe" starts to seem less likely... which is fine, but still disappointing when the potential is so obvious.
Agree, disappointing. This should be at least 15 stories. They should also have the Ash facing side include some small retail that would compliment the grocery store nicely. I know some WF's have bars and juice bars. I would be cool to see both of those on Ash, with some patio seating. That would make me happy.

Perhaps we should all email our thoughts to the city council and DRC. The patios don't seem to much to ask for. Nor does a few more floors.
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  #5913  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 1:45 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
Are you referring to Postino? That's on the first floor with a large patio addressing the street. Or are you referring to another wine bar on College?
No, not Postino. The fact that you didn't even realize there was one inside College Ave Commons proves my point... it's called Pitchforks & Corks - a wine and coffee bar on the 2nd floor.

PHXFlyer11 - Patios from the WF market would certainly help, but really, all projects built on Ash from here on out - with the knowledge that the streetcar route is finalized - need to stop treating it as a glorified alley. Even with patios, the majority of the frontage would be service access points. As the first major project being built on Ash since the streetcar's announcement, and with its prominent location on the intersection of University, this project should serve as a gateway which would encourage future developments to create energy with active ground levels. If you own the next available lot to the north, are you going to risk any space on retail when the first two buildings have little more than garage ramps? No. DC has some great urban grocery projects - the dead space is covered with shallow retail spaces along the perimeter... yes, fitting restaurant or clothing store space would be a major challenge, but a row with the following is certainly doable: 24-hour taco stand, tea cafe, liquor store, cell phone store, small boutique/accessory store (look at the size of Here on the Corner or the store on 5th below the old Terralever).

This Safeway is a great example of how to make a grocery store work: http://bettercities.net/images/12586/urban-grocery-store-georgetown
^ I recommend checking out the street view on Google Maps so you can see the side stores better.

I know it's dramatic, but I sent the developer an email. I referred them to Mosaic for a more appropriately scaled project, explained how the demographics have shifted since Whole Foods was originally planned, and asked that at the very least they consider revising the Ash frontage with the streetcar in mind. I doubt that anyone with the power to suggest such changes will read the note, but oh well. I think the design is hideous as well- why are luxury apartments so generic?

ETA: On 2nd look, there appears to be a road west of the building... they could very well have created an alleyway from which the garage will be accessed, which is slightly less disturbing. But, given that the entrance to WF is on the corner of Ash/Uni, it isn't likely they could have been planning for retail along Ash in its current form. Also, looking at Ash again, it doesn't really stand a chance... the two Chase garages are massive and the fire station isn't very ped-oriented, either. Then, consider the lack of through streets that connect Mill to Ash, and the curve in the road that creates shallow lots on the west side, and it doesn't look good. The garages have setbacks... unlikely, but retail could be attached (or even residential?). I think retail could still do well within this project, though, since the Chase building has converted all of its ground level spaces to retail, and there are several cool stores just across the street - would be great if that retail center were redeveloped one day so that Cartel, the record store, etc. all faced University. [Side note - I also just realized how claustrophobic 6th Street is as it passes between W6 and Hanover! That could've been done so much better.]

Last edited by Jjs5056; May 29, 2015 at 2:18 PM.
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  #5914  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 2:54 PM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
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It's not terrible. I agree with you about the surrounding garages. My only worry is that Tempe is running out of lots for any potential 300 ft towers.
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  #5915  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 3:10 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
No, not Postino. The fact that you didn't even realize there was one inside College Ave Commons proves my point... it's called Pitchforks & Corks - a wine and coffee bar on the 2nd floor.
Interesting and thanks for letting me know of its existence. I'm amazed that ASU chose to situate this right across the street from Postino, a project the university was also aware of and somewhat involved in.
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  #5916  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 4:19 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
Interesting and thanks for letting me know of its existence. I'm amazed that ASU chose to situate this right across the street from Postino, a project the university was also aware of and somewhat involved in.
The coffee bar competes with Snooze, Cupz, The Blend, and Royal Coffee Bar; the wine bar competes with Postino; and, the Marketplace competes with the Student Bookstore... I realize not all of them are ASU-affiliated, but again, if your goal is creating an active mixed-use project, you should probably try to diversify the retail offerings. I like the idea of a quality, sit-down restaurant as I think that will help 'legitimize' College, but I can't see this concept succeeding on the 2nd floor with no signage and across from Postino.

I had seen one site plan that indicated ASU was trying to attract retailers to go in the lot directly behind the pavilion (but still on the same half of the lot); it would have made much more sense for the sit-down restaurant to go over there and open up the courtyard. Hopefully, they do add businesses there to completely connect the west side of College. I wish that some of the retail centers could attract something other than fast-casual chains, though.
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  #5917  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 4:35 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Originally Posted by azsunsurfer View Post
It's not terrible. I agree with you about the surrounding garages. My only worry is that Tempe is running out of lots for any potential 300 ft towers.
But, your last sentence is what makes it pretty terrible, no? Downtown Tempe is constrained on all ends by ASU, single-family neighborhoods, the Butte, and the Lake. Any new development needs to reflect that by adding as much office, residential, hotel rooms, etc. possible to attain the critical mass necessary to support new and existing retail and create the type of urban scene we'd all like to see. This is especially true with regard to residential, since many of the sites once set aside for condos/market rate units have been filled with student and senior housing projects instead. If every lot is filled with projects that offer just 170 units, downtown will continue to have severe peaks and drops in demand based on ASU's schedule, and will be capped in terms of the number of office workers and professionals it can house.

Ash is the perfect location for high-rises with high densities as it is fairly removed from both Mill and Farmer. This project should have included 300+ units, which would have taken it to at least 16 floors. Aesthetically, a 16+ tower there would be a nice complement to W6, which will remain completely out of place now. Ash/5th and Mill/University are really the only sites left for potential new highrises... given that 7th/Mill has two property owners, I don't see the split-up sites working out to accomodate anything that tall.
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  #5918  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 7:48 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
But, your last sentence is what makes it pretty terrible, no? Downtown Tempe is constrained on all ends by ASU, single-family neighborhoods, the Butte, and the Lake. Any new development needs to reflect that by adding as much office, residential, hotel rooms, etc. possible to attain the critical mass necessary to support new and existing retail and create the type of urban scene we'd all like to see. This is especially true with regard to residential, since many of the sites once set aside for condos/market rate units have been filled with student and senior housing projects instead. If every lot is filled with projects that offer just 170 units, downtown will continue to have severe peaks and drops in demand based on ASU's schedule, and will be capped in terms of the number of office workers and professionals it can house.

Ash is the perfect location for high-rises with high densities as it is fairly removed from both Mill and Farmer. This project should have included 300+ units, which would have taken it to at least 16 floors. Aesthetically, a 16+ tower there would be a nice complement to W6, which will remain completely out of place now. Ash/5th and Mill/University are really the only sites left for potential new highrises... given that 7th/Mill has two property owners, I don't see the split-up sites working out to accomodate anything that tall.
While I agree on this being too short and agree that it is a shame, I don't subscribe to the theory that Tempe is running out of lots.

It may be running out of dirt lots or parking lots, but redevelopment is something that takes place when there is demand for land that just doesn't exist. I think as these lots fill you will see other buildings torn down or redeveloped. The smaller the lot, the higher they must build to justify the investment.

Yes, it's a shame. But I personally don't think we should be worried about running out of land. As an example, when the time is right that little Holiday Inn or whatever it is on the corner of Ash and 5th could be demo'd and redeveloped. We've already seen a proposal for the opposite corner.

The one that bothers me is Hayden Square. That damn garage on the first floor is terrible. And since they are condos, good luck ever getting everyone to sell for that land to be redeveloped.
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  #5919  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 11:37 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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The sites downtown with redevelopment potential are all fairly small. I definitely agree that there are quite a few buildings that will one day be replaced; but, that won't likely happen for a while and they'd likely be replaced with more infill-scaled projects. These newer developments are being built on large, prime spaces.

I completely agree about Hayden Square. 5th Street should be a priority for Tempe, as it is really the only continuous block that links College to Farmer, but is lined with a ton of crap. If Hayden Square is unlikely to ever be demo'd, it would be a little less offensive if it filled in some of their ground-level garage spaces with retail. But, the High Maintenance building and CenturyLink are just as awful - it sucks that a building like CenturyLink was ever allowed downtown.

I hope interesting establishments replace Revo and Hooters; and, it would be nice for the Residence Inn to finally land a restaurant on its ground level. Lucky Strike would have been great in the Hooters space... Tempe could use some more grown-up nightlife options.
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  #5920  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 3:25 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Looks like the crane for HFL 3 is down now. I think one for Marina Heights could come down soon too. We need more cranes! Come on 100 Mill!
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