Canadian Retail Thread

[goodgrowth]

Starbucks to permanently close 400 stores in U.S. and Canada; warns of 45% sales drop

https://business.financialpost.com/p...from-covid-19?


Edit:

Starbucks plans to close up to 200 Canadian locations over two years

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/star...ears-1.4977752

[esquire]

^ Not entirely shocking. Starbucks had the "frou frou" high end coffee market sewn up 15 years ago, but from what I can tell most young people are into local independents these days.

There is a bit of an age divide on this one ... 35 and up are often still loyal to Starbucks, but those who are younger tend to look down on it.

[christopherj]

Yeah - 10 years ago in many markets it was either Starbucks, Tim Hortons or Second Cup. Now there are a ton of independent shops.

Where in live in Edmonton I can think of 5-6 local shops within a 10 minute walk that I could go to before Starbucks (and I don't even mind Starbucks).

[whatnext]

Interesting that while just 1/3 of their US locations have drive-thru, 60% of new ones will. In Vancouver they'll run smack into our virtue-signalling city hall which views drive-thrus as the anti-christ.

[casper]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Interesting that while just 1/3 of their US locations have drive-thru, 60% of new ones will. In Vancouver they'll run smack into our virtue-signalling city hall which views drive-thrus as the anti-christ.

Wow, city hall has an accurate assessment. They are evil, especially when the lineups stretch off the retailers property.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by casper

Wow, city hall has an accurate assessment. They are evil, especially when the lineups stretch off the retailers property.

I've never seen them stretch off property, except during the lockdown. It's just typical elitist Vancouver greenwashing.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

Starbucks plans to close up to 200 Canadian locations over two years

I guess the key line in the CTV article is that Starbucks typically closes 100 locations in NA each year anyway.

Originally Posted by esquire

There is a bit of an age divide on this one ... 35 and up are often still loyal to Starbucks, but those who are younger tend to look down on it.

It's anecdotal but i'd disagree with this. Most I know in their mid-20s still prefer Starbucks to most other coffee shops. Independents are great and all but they're still independents at the end of the day and sole-location.

Tim Hortons on the other hand? That's a demographic customer base bomb waiting to go off.

[goodgrowth]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Tim Hortons on the other hand? That's a demographic customer base bomb waiting to go off.

It's funny though because one of the main arguments you hear against Tim's is essentially to "stop changing from the way they were 25 years ago"...when embracing change is exactly what they need to do to not get caught in the "demographic customer base bomb".

Canadians built up this mediocre donut and coffee chain because of patriotism and now look back with nostalgia... in reality was always just a Canadian Dunkin Donuts in a super un-competitive market. (look at how Tim Horton's has faired in the US market for the honest litmus test)

They are only going to survive if they get away from that nostalgic non-sense imo...

McDonalds has continued success because they keep evolving with the times...modernizing stores...changing menus.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

McDonalds has continued success because they keep evolving with the times...modernizing stores...changing menus.

I dunno… at its core, the McDonald's menu is not that dissimilar to what it was 30 years ago. Contrast that with Tim Hortons where coffee and other hot beverages are one of the only constants over that timeframe... so much has come and gone since then.

Tim's advantage is that it was never really fashionable or stylish to begin with, so it doesn't have to fight that battle. Contrast with Starbucks which traded on a certain style factor that it is now losing to local coffee shops with way more cachet, similar to how the big mega-brewers are being hurt by scores of small local or regional craft brewers.

[MonctonRad]

I think Timmies has to recognize it's traditional base and play to it.

Timmies has already lost the latte slurping metrosexual hipsters found south of Bloor Street, and should concentrate on the construction workers and hockey moms found in the far flung suburbs and small towns of Canada. All these people want is a reliable coffee shop with a predictable menu where they can go to for lunch, or to kill some time while the kids are off at a hockey tournament or at football practice. All these people want is a nice bowl of chili or a ham & Swiss sandwich and a bowl of soup for a reasonable price on a snowy December afternoon, and to commune with Joe from down the street.

This is an urban vs rural Canada sorta thing, or a Liberal vs Conservative thing. Timmies has a target demographic, and that demographic is Don Cherry. They have to realize this and embrace it, and stop trying to change things!!

[Innsertnamehere]

Tims presence in downtown Toronto was essentially non-existent 5 years ago though. Far from it today. They have opened a ton of stores in the downtown core in that time.

It was really their last untapped market, inner city locations.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Tims presence in downtown Toronto was essentially non-existent 5 years ago though. Far from it today. They have opened a ton of stores in the downtown core in that time.

It was really their last untapped market, inner city locations.

Pretty sure there's more Tim's nearer to me than Starbucks...at least in the immediate vicinity. And they got a prime location at the new Union foodcourt.

[casper]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I've never seen them stretch off property, except during the lockdown. It's just typical elitist Vancouver greenwashing.

I have seen this problem at Tim Hortons in Saskatoon and Ontario.

The reason you don't see this in Vancouver is due to the success of the "typical elitist Vancouver greenwashing".

Vancouver does have them. There one in McDonalds at Broadway and Boundary. That has stretched out the parking lock.

The Starbucks at Kaslo also gets long.

[goodgrowth]

Originally Posted by esquire

I dunno… at its core, the McDonald's menu is not that dissimilar to what it was 30 years ago. Contrast that with Tim Hortons where coffee and other hot beverages are one of the only constants over that timeframe... so much has come and gone since then.

Sure it has the core items but there are also a lot more options available today.

Also just the general experience of walking inside a McDonald's today vs 20+ years ago....it's significantly different imo (layout, seating, touchscreens)

If I walk into somewhere like a Wendy's or Burger King it feels a lot like it did 20+ years ago.

I mean this could be just that McDonald's puts more money into upgrading it's stores than other franchises...but it seems more than that....a conscious effort to change things.

[memememe76]

When I was a highschooler from the suburbs in the early 90s, going to Starbucks *was* cool. But I grew out of it. Going to local coffeeshops in the City was what I do. But older people can't afford the city, so they move back to the suburbs. I still support local, but there are just fewer options (although, I think there are plenty of local coffeeshops all over the Lower Mainland).

Starbucks have frappes, which the kids can enjoy. But I feel it's losing their cachet with the kids these days. Bubble tea and the like are more the rage, it seems.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Tims presence in downtown Toronto was essentially non-existent 5 years ago though. Far from it today. They have opened a ton of stores in the downtown core in that time.

It was really their last untapped market, inner city locations.

There’s a new Timmies going in to a renovated building at the corner of King and Queen Sts in Downtown Kitchener, the historical heart of DTK. It will be kitty-corner from a Coffee Culture, which caters to a similar demographic.

[svlt]

Coffee is strangely polarizing, one of the few choices of food and beverage you actually get (if quietly, subtlety) judged on in an office. I guess it's because it's accessible to all and almost everyone goes for a cup sometime in a week? No one really cares where a colleague goes to lunch or what wine they buy or what dessert they prefer. But if you want to get closer with the Director, better not suggest the Timmie's for a 30 minute networking chat.

I like to think I'm somewhere on the line between able to read the pulse of what's cool nowadays and being just an old Canadian average Joe, but I never got the idea of the independent coffee shop. Most are outrageously overpriced and just taste like a different flavor profile of burnt and bitter that will inevitably get diluted by milk and sugar by most consumers.

I get some people can taste the difference and are connoisseurs, but with coffee it's like 3/4ths of the office suddenly become experts when they have no problem hitting up a McDonald's for a grilled chicken sandwich or picking up the cheapest on sale wine at the government liquor store to bring to a housewarming.

I just head to Starbucks every time, even if a colleague requests an indie shop. Their online rewards and mobile ordering has the process nailed down.

Tim Horton's is much more of a "Rest of Canada" thing, I feel there are hardly any fans in the downtown Vancouver/Toronto markets aside from students and construction workers. It's drinkable stuff, I admit I can tell it tastes a little worse for me, but I'd never not go by myself if it's convenient only because it's "unfashionable" to have the cup or something.

[memememe76]

Who in the world has ever been judged by the coffeecup on their desk?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by memememe76

Who in the world has ever been judged by the coffeecup on their desk?

OMG! You mean you didn't know?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by memememe76

Who in the world has ever been judged by the coffeecup on their desk?

Judging from the people on this forum who seemingly routinely wish for the downfall of Tim's i'd say probably fairly often.