Tempe Development Thread

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

Interesting the "7S" project will be split in two phases...at least they are building the tallest tower at once. I guess the long nature of the building's footprint reminds me of 100Mill (Mill + Rio).

Where did you see this Sunsurfer? I've been looking all over for information. Can you share a link?

[azsunsurfer]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Where did you see this Sunsurfer? I've been looking all over for information. Can you share a link?

http://www.tempe.gov/city-hall/city-cler...lic-bodies/development-review-commission

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

http://www.tempe.gov/city-hall/city-cler...lic-bodies/development-review-commission

Thanks! Usually the update the file name when they update the agenda with links, I didn't click it because it seemed like the same file.

Overall impressions, I agree with you sunsurfer, I wish it wasn't phased, but the tallest goes up first so that is good.

I don't love the design, but it's decent. Also, I like the fact no co-signers on this property, so they are marketing to young professionals.

[azsunsurfer]

I think Tempe may be overbuilding hotel rooms by the time all these hotels come to fruition (although I see only half of them being built).

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

I think Tempe may be overbuilding hotel rooms by the time all these hotels come to fruition (although I see only half of them being built).

I looked at the file again. It looks like they will actually build the two tallest towers first, the first residential tower and the hotel tower. It is the third and shortest planned residential tower that is phase 2.

Hopefully they see great demand and end up actually building the third tower taller than planned.

The market seems prime right now for a residential tower on the lake. People love the W6 highrises despite their high rents and pool elevators, students, etc. I think there would be demand for a condo or apartment tower on the lake.

Also, I noticed both of the South Bank proposals were removed from the agenda. Hopefully the developer realized they would never get approved at 5 stories and is going back to the drawing board. Wishful thinking probably, but good for Tempe for sticking to their guns. There won't be much land left soon zoned for 300ft, so we need to start building up now.

[ASUSunDevil]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I looked at the file again. It looks like they will actually build the two tallest towers first, the first residential tower and the hotel tower. It is the third and shortest planned residential tower that is phase 2.

Hopefully they see great demand and end up actually building the third tower taller than planned.

The market seems prime right now for a residential tower on the lake. People love the W6 highrises despite their high rents and pool elevators, students, etc. I think there would be demand for a condo or apartment tower on the lake.

Also, I noticed both of the South Bank proposals were removed from the agenda. Hopefully the developer realized they would never get approved at 5 stories and is going back to the drawing board. Wishful thinking probably, but good for Tempe for sticking to their guns. There won't be much land left soon zoned for 300ft, so we need to start building up now.

I think a residential high-rise would do excellent on the west side of the lake. The lot that formerly housed Club Rio (next to Audio Express) seems like the perfect fit. That site is the gateway to Tempe from Rural and the 202, and the views of Marina Heights would be incredible. A market rate high-rise (similar to the proposed Central Station in Downtown PHX) would draw huge demand at that site.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by ASUSunDevil

I think a residential high-rise would do excellent on the west side of the lake. The lot that formerly housed Club Rio (next to Audio Express) seems like a perfect fit. That site is the gateway to Tempe from Rural or the 202, and the views of Marina Heights would be incredible. A market rate high-rise (similar to the proposed Central Station in Downtown PHX) would draw huge demand at that site.

That would be awesome if they could build two residential towers there. Also, I don't believe The Jefferson was ever approved (I could be wrong). If not, it seems like the residents of Northshore really want a condo high-rise as to not destroy their condo values. It would be great to see 2-3 towers pop up on the remaining land on the north side.

There was also a plan approved for a 10-story office + parking on vacant lot in front of Grigio. I think they have had trouble finding tenants though with those ugly power lines, so it hasn't moved.

[azsunsurfer]

The Jefferson was approved and will be breaking ground really soon.

[rocksteady]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Its very obviously apartments under construction.....

Obvious to people who don't live there and haven't been in over a year as they are flying by at 80mph? You are all such friendly, warm people over a simple question.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I looked at the file again. It looks like they will actually build the two tallest towers first, the first residential tower and the hotel tower. It is the third and shortest planned residential tower that is phase 2.

Hopefully they see great demand and end up actually building the third tower taller than planned.

The market seems prime right now for a residential tower on the lake. People love the W6 highrises despite their high rents and pool elevators, students, etc. I think there would be demand for a condo or apartment tower on the lake.

Also, I noticed both of the South Bank proposals were removed from the agenda. Hopefully the developer realized they would never get approved at 5 stories and is going back to the drawing board. Wishful thinking probably, but good for Tempe for sticking to their guns. There won't be much land left soon zoned for 300ft, so we need to start building up now.

1. You mentioned in a different post that you weren't crazy about the design; what do you see as missing? While I'll always prefer subterranean parking, I think the development does a decent job at integrating the podium and using it to break up the scale of the entire project. Overall, the slender towers and distinct podium help create visual interest as opposed to one, chunky tower (see the 2nd version of University Square); while the mix of uses along the ground level break up what could have been a massive superblock. Bringing market rate residential and hotel rooms to the area between College and Mill will help drive retail and other infill development that will complete this section of downtown. University looks great at the ground level, and while Forest and Myrtle are both impacted by garage ramps/loading docks, there was at least attention paid to placing retail at the corners of each in order to prevent an entire block of dead space. Overall, I think the design is pretty ideal for this location.

2. It's disappointing that the 3rd tower will be built in a 2nd phase, as I think creating a continuous block of urban-scale development along 7th between College and Mill is an important connection to be made. However, there is no chance that tower will be reconfigured to be any taller than what is shown in the current proposal; not only was the current height likely stipulated within the approvals, the 3rd tower was sold to the neighboring condo-owners as being the lowest, and serving as a transition to less-intense uses moving north of University. I hope there is a market for high-end residential, or else we'll be stuck with a grass/parking lot for quite some time.

3. I stated this previously, but SouthBank will almost certainly be approved at 5 and 6 stories; The Jefferson (which was approved pending a parking circulation study/confirmation), Vela, SkyWater, and SALT have all been approved at similar/smaller heights. The last proposal was denied for multiple reasons; the height fell into the "fails to meet the intensity of uses designated for the site" rationale, but the new proposals address this by adding a couple of floors, along with a large amount of retail and live/work space that wasn't there originally.

4. I think we'd all love to see a high-rise residential project along the lake, but if there were demand for one, it would have been built. The rental market will never be hotter in Tempe than it was over the last 3 years, and aside from University House, all residential development topped out at 5/6 stories. If prime parcels like the Hanover lot were wasted on single-use 6-story projects, then I think that's a pretty good indication that the market just isn't supporting the added costs of high-rise construction.

I think the latest wave of projects in the 200' range are the most realistic Tempe will be attracting for quite some time. I've said before I am skeptical that all of this hotel demand exists especially with the lack of brand names being linked to these projects, but I also think the rental residential market will begin to saturate fairly soon. I hope all of the proposed projects get off the ground, because Tempe would end up with a nice, midrise skyline extending from University to the lake (though towers on the Hanover and Ash/Uni parcels would've been great) with Marina Heights, HFL, Hayden Flour Mill, 100 Mill, University House, W6, and 7S.

If these projects all get built, Tempe will definitely transition from college town to a diverse, urban market (albeit quite small). With the influx of new office workers at Marina Heights, 100 Mill, and HFL3, along with a more mature retail scene due to the residential projects like Hanover and 7S, hopefully Tempe will be positioned well to take advantage of the next condo boom. I think the "Hayden Harbor" and SouthBank properties will almost certainly see the highest residential developments in the city at some point.

[Jjs5056]

I think it's interesting that the M7 assemblage was sold off to 2 different investors. According to the group that owns the majority of the land, it sounded like talks were headed in the direction of a joint venture to create a project that takes advantage of the entire site. But, the owner of the parcel smack in the middle, wrote to the City (see: the M7 time extension) saying that they have plans underway and might be ready to show them by end of year.

On one hand, I think having one owner or a committed joint venture might make development of the site more realistic. It also increases the chance of a large-scale project with height, and reduces the risk of pieces of the site being left undeveloped for years. However, it might not be a bad thing if, instead of waiting 10 years for the market to support an M7-scale proposal, more mid-range projects are prepared for the site. In fact, it would probably be best from a pedestrian/urban form standpoint if multiple projects were built as opposed to one megaproject.

Anyway, just some thoughts as this area definitely seems to be the next obvious "hot spot" and will be an even bigger gap in the urban fabric once 7S is completed.

[PHXFlyer11]

I feel like it's been really dead for while on these boards, so I'll reply

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

1. You mentioned in a different post that you weren't crazy about the design; what do you see as missing? While I'll always prefer subterranean parking, I think the development does a decent job at integrating the podium and using it to break up the scale of the entire project. Overall, the slender towers and distinct podium help create visual interest as opposed to one, chunky tower (see the 2nd version of University Square); while the mix of uses along the ground level break up what could have been a massive superblock. Bringing market rate residential and hotel rooms to the area between College and Mill will help drive retail and other infill development that will complete this section of downtown. University looks great at the ground level, and while Forest and Myrtle are both impacted by garage ramps/loading docks, there was at least attention paid to placing retail at the corners of each in order to prevent an entire block of dead space. Overall, I think the design is pretty ideal for this location.

It's more the materials and colors in the renderings, but I know these often can differ and look different on paper. I am also a bit skeptical exactly how much of the street frontage will be activated with pedestrian entrances and retail. But I guess since it's outward facing it could never be as bad as Cityscape.

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

2. It's disappointing that the 3rd tower will be built in a 2nd phase, as I think creating a continuous block of urban-scale development along 7th between College and Mill is an important connection to be made. However, there is no chance that tower will be reconfigured to be any taller than what is shown in the current proposal; not only was the current height likely stipulated within the approvals, the 3rd tower was sold to the neighboring condo-owners as being the lowest, and serving as a transition to less-intense uses moving north of University. I hope there is a market for high-end residential, or else we'll be stuck with a grass/parking lot for quite some time.

That makes sense then. I read some of that feedback.

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

3. I stated this previously, but SouthBank will almost certainly be approved at 5 and 6 stories; The Jefferson (which was approved pending a parking circulation study/confirmation), Vela, SkyWater, and SALT have all been approved at similar/smaller heights. The last proposal was denied for multiple reasons; the height fell into the "fails to meet the intensity of uses designated for the site" rationale, but the new proposals address this by adding a couple of floors, along with a large amount of retail and live/work space that wasn't there originally.

Didn't they reject a few SouthBank proposals though that were 5-6 stories already? That seems to be one area where they are sticking to their guns.

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

4. I think we'd all love to see a high-rise residential project along the lake, but if there were demand for one, it would have been built. The rental market will never be hotter in Tempe than it was over the last 3 years, and aside from University House, all residential development topped out at 5/6 stories. If prime parcels like the Hanover lot were wasted on single-use 6-story projects, then I think that's a pretty good indication that the market just isn't supporting the added costs of high-rise construction.

I think there is demand. If you look at the rates that W6 is able to charge just for being a high-rise it's quite incredible. I'd think something similar on the lake could do even better. Maybe one condo tower and one apartment tower that could later be converted to condos.

I killed the rest of your reply cause it was so long, but I agree that once all the new office space is online we could see some more high-rise residential come to market. At that point, the residential demand (and possibly hotel demand) will be behind the supply. Then we start all over again! Fun times in Tempe!

[Jjs5056]

The materials looked okay, though I don't anything proposed in Tempe during this latest wave. Everything is quite square/rectangle; but, at least there is some variety and deviance from the blue-glass look that seemed to dominate every rendering last time around. It's a shame that University House looks like it'll remain one of the taller structures for quite some time, and is definitely the worst looking.

SouthBank's last proposal was for 4-5 stories, IIRC, and the height was never specifically mentioned as a reason for the denied request; instead, it was a factor within only one of several reasons cited for the denied request, which was that the proposal lacked the intensity expected for the area. The other concerns were the suburban materials and lack of commercial/mixed use elements. Assuming the new designs include a better materials palette, they've pretty much addressed every concern of the committee. They've added a great deal of commercial and live/work space to each building, which provides additional variety in living options, and provides a good foundation for public interaction as the rest of the lots develop. This could already be seen as intensifying the use of each, but they've also added floors and we've yet to see if they might have also added density by reducing unit size, # of multi-bedroom units, etc. As mentioned, several other developments of similar/equal heights have been approved, so it wouldn't be consistent for this not to get the green light. Height is likely one of the last factors the committee looks for, assuming the uses and density levels seem adequate for the area.

And, yes, my reply was even longer than usual just since there's been nothing being discussed - sorry. But, to the last point re: demand, I think the success of a W6 proved that there was a demand for luxury rentals in the downtown market. The explosion of ~5-story luxury projects were in response to this demand: they are providing a quality product with urban amenities and convenience. But, I don't know that W6 proved there was a demand for high-rise living specifically, or at least enough so to warrant the increased costs that are magnified once you pursue heights over 5 stories. I don't know the economics, but either banks aren't financing such projects or developers continue to believe they'll get the same or better return on a lowrise project, or we would've seen at least a few high rise proposals this go-around, which is what makes me think it might not be until condo projects are viable that we see taller residential buildings.

On the plus side, some of the smaller projects have some pretty serious density levels (such as Hanover) and will have a positive effect despite some of the design flaws/shortcomings. Hopefully, this positive effect will be big enough to encourage more non-student housing, which inevitably needs to go taller as the remaining lots are few and a lot are smaller in size.

[Jjs5056]

Just random thoughts, but I think the ideal heights for Tempe are probably somewhere between the ones proposed in ~2006 and the ones that have been proposed/built in recent years. Obviously, the market dictates what is built ultimately, but I think some projects (e.g., Hanover) missed the mark on design beyond just the height.

While Hanover packed in a ton of units, I would have been okay with giving up that density for a taller project (2 towers around the height of W6 II) that featured a symmetrical plaza to the one at W6 with retail opening onto it. I think the current setup of 6th is really messy-looking and is a dead-end; the retail at W6 is kind of ignored because the plaza has no real continuous pedestrian activity. If a mirrored version was attached, it would create a nice visual and active end-cap to 6th which is one of the more urban side streets, as well as a larger open space for residents.

I like the design of Rio+Mill much better than its last; 15 stories is more appropriate for the Mill Ave frontage, and the new towers will create a nice gateway. I do wish the 2nd tower along Rio Salado was a little taller; by switching the hotel and office, and adding more office space to the hotel tower and/or attracting a dual-brand hotel? Visually, it would've been nice to have a bit more contrast in that area to define the start of downtown, as the proposed heights are fairly similar to the lakefront projects.

Hanover, SALT, The Jefferson, SkyWater, etc. all seem fairly out-of-place, and I would have liked to have seen projects of these sizes built along the edge of downtown: along Farmer, or within the Mill > College area. If the Ash/University site ends up being ~7 stories like it sounds like it will, the Ash and Farmer streetscapes will be a big letdown. The former MOSAIC was a great project, and the mix of uses/heights for Farmer to buffer the lowrise neighborhoods to the west was a great plan. Hopefully, the University/Ash site is reevaluated now or during the next boom and its size increased; and, that some projects other than senior housing are added to the mix along Farmer.

[PHXFlyer11]

Anyone know if the DRC approved the 7th towers last night? It didn't seem like there was much opposition.

[azsunsurfer]

They re-added Southbank!

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

They re-added Southbank!

I saw that, but the files only loaded the 1-page summaries, no renderings!

[PHXFlyer11]

This appears to be "near" Priest and Washington. 100 Mill and the project right there (spacing on the name) seem to have been to late to the game. They could've filled some decent space! Good regardless to see a new up and coming company in the downtown area.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/...insurance-company-to-open-office-in.html

[azsunsurfer]

The Grand

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

The Grand

Do go on...