Calgary Roads

[craner]

Wow!
First the West Ring Road announcement and now Airport Trail - this is Awesome!!

I wonder what the first stage interchanges at 19th & Barlow will look like ?

Stampede time is like Christmas for funding announcements.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by craner

Wow!
First the West Ring Road announcement and now Airport Trail - this is Awesome!!

I wonder what the first stage interchanges at 19th & Barlow will look like ?

Stampede time is like Christmas for funding announcements.

Why are they having an intersection at Metis Trail? That makes no sense at all. I thought this was supposed to be like a freeway connection between Stoney and the airport?

[milomilo]

Because traffic there will be fairly low, and budgets are limited? I like free flowing roads as much as you, but there is no infinite pot of money, I'd rather they spent the money now on the places they need it rather than wasting it on places that don't. They can build an intersection at Metis now and add an interchange later when traffic volumes warrant without wasting any money as long as they build the intersection with future upgrades in mind.

IMO, all other problems we have on the roads pale in comparison to Crowchild. So any money spent on something else and not on Crowchild is wasted money in my eyes. Most of the other problems have been somewhat fixed, but that perception admittedly coloured by the roads I use.

Actually, add Glenmore to the list of roads that need fixing. But there isn't even talk of a plan to fix that.

[craner]

^ I generally agree with this.
Crowchild should be the top priority for the City to get it fixed ASAP (instead of the current 10-20 year timeframe).

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Because traffic there will be fairly low, and budgets are limited? I like free flowing roads as much as you, but there is no infinite pot of money, I'd rather they spent the money now on the places they need it rather than wasting it on places that don't. They can build an intersection at Metis now and add an interchange later when traffic volumes warrant without wasting any money as long as they build the intersection with future upgrades in mind.

IMO, all other problems we have on the roads pale in comparison to Crowchild. So any money spent on something else and not on Crowchild is wasted money in my eyes. Most of the other problems have been somewhat fixed, but that perception admittedly coloured by the roads I use.

Actually, add Glenmore to the list of roads that need fixing. But there isn't even talk of a plan to fix that.

Airport Trail is also going to be a key route for shippers. For them time is money. An interchange would not cost that much and is definitely needed. If the city is too cheap and too stupid to build one then they just have no access at that road. Wasn't the deal with the Airport Authority to have all interchanges on that road?

Glenmore is at least getting upgrades on the east side and some related to the SWRR project. The other fixes are a result of prior dumbass planning which is exactly what they seem to be doing with Airport Trail. Instead of planning for yesterday they need to plan for the future. It would also help if they stopped listening to groups like Bike Calgary who seem to have input into every transportation project in this city.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by craner

^ I generally agree with this.
Crowchild should be the top priority for the City to get it fixed ASAP (instead of the current 10-20 year timeframe).

I agree but half-ass designing and building other projects isn't going to help in the long run. What would really help is to stop wasting hundreds of millions (billions?) on very questionable projects such as BRT, etc.

[milomilo]

An interchange runs what, $50-$100 million judging by previous projects? I wouldn't call that not very much. It's different to the lack of foresight in the past where they thought that an intersection and 4 lanes would be all that's needed, and build right up to it. The interchange here will, I expect, be built in a way such that the future interchange can be built alongside fairly easily. It's not wasting money on something that will be need to torn down and replaced at great expense.

If you believe that 50 million to make that interchange is top of the list above all the other ones we could build that's fine, but I disagree that it is that important.

[msmariner]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Why are they having an intersection at Metis Trail? That makes no sense at all. I thought this was supposed to be like a freeway connection between Stoney and the airport?

As per the deal with Airport Authorities when the City built the Tunnel. Airport trail could not be connected between 36st and Metis Tr until the interchanges were built at 19th and Barlow. The CAA has the city by the short and curlies and they got what they wanted.
Of all the needed interchanges in Calgary those two are so far down the list. The CAA knew they would never get built without the deal they signed to allow the tunnel. I’m glad the feds are paying for them at least.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Airport Trail is also going to be a key route for shippers. For them time is money. An interchange would not cost that much and is definitely needed. If the city is too cheap and too stupid to build one then they just have no access at that road. Wasn't the deal with the Airport Authority to have all interchanges on that road?

Glenmore is at least getting upgrades on the east side and some related to the SWRR project. The other fixes are a result of prior dumbass planning which is exactly what they seem to be doing with Airport Trail. Instead of planning for yesterday they need to plan for the future. It would also help if they stopped listening to groups like Bike Calgary who seem to have input into every transportation project in this city.

Simply having Airport Trail completed is going to be such an improvement to mobility in the area. The intersection will be fine for a while. When this opens, there will only ever be a maximum of 3 lights between Stoney and Deerfoot. Country Hills Blvd already has 7 lights (and more to come in the future) between Stoney and Deerfoot, while also being a kilometre shorter than the same stretch of Airport Trail.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Simply having Airport Trail completed is going to be such an improvement to mobility in the area. The intersection will be fine for a while. When this opens, there will only ever be a maximum of 3 lights between Stoney and Deerfoot. Country Hills Blvd already has 7 lights (and more to come in the future) between Stoney and Deerfoot, while also being a kilometre shorter than the same stretch of Airport Trail.

The city has totally ruined Country Hills Blvd. Textbook example of stupid planning.

[technomad]

Originally Posted by milomilo

An interchange runs what, $50-$100 million judging by previous projects? I wouldn't call that not very much. It's different to the lack of foresight in the past where they thought that an intersection and 4 lanes would be all that's needed, and build right up to it. The interchange here will, I expect, be built in a way such that the future interchange can be built alongside fairly easily. It's not wasting money on something that will be need to torn down and replaced at great expense.

If you believe that 50 million to make that interchange is top of the list above all the other ones we could build that's fine, but I disagree that it is that important.

I'd figure a stage 1 interchange could be done for ~50 mil, given recent projects.
while that's not exactly spare change, it is peanuts compared to what the crowchild overhaul is going to cost..

I say there's at least 2 solid reasons to build it now

first, construction inflation continues to outpace regular inflation, so it will literally never be cheaper to build it than it is now.

secondly, having a light there puts the only kink in what could and should be a free flow road. if that interchange isn't built for another 10-20 years, how much time, fuel/emissions and vehicle wear and tear will people have wasted because of it?
there are costs to all that too..

let's not do what BC did with SFPR and botch what should have been a nice green transportation link on day 1

[technomad]

as for crowchild and glenmore fixes, will be interesting to see how traffic patterns change with stoney trail completed..
should be possible to have glenmore free flow between stoney by then, only 2 interchanges left? fairly cheap and easy

crowchild on the other hand.. will be a monster, and hugely disruptive.
still can't help thinking that filling in that missing link in the network, and turning south sarcee into south shaganappi would be reasonably affordable, and would provide a detour route for the crowchild overhaul. could also be used for the SW transit corridor, and be the pretext to get northland station/TOD going. push it south and you can get TODs going at signal hill, tsuu t'ina and MRU too

spitball ~100mil for bow tr interchange
~200 mil for bow bride and approach
~100 mil for interchanges at 32 & 40 ave
~100 mil for crowchild interchange upgrade

so maybe a half bil all in, and we get a pretty good overall network upgrade with groth capacity, future LRT route, and a nice workaround for the crowchild pain

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

The city has totally ruined Country Hills Blvd. Textbook example of stupid planning.

How so? It’s becoming exactly what it was designed to become years ago. Not every road can be a freeway.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by technomad

I'd figure a stage 1 interchange could be done for ~50 mil, given recent projects.
while that's not exactly spare change, it is peanuts compared to what the crowchild overhaul is going to cost..

I say there's at least 2 solid reasons to build it now

first, construction inflation continues to outpace regular inflation, so it will literally never be cheaper to build it than it is now.

secondly, having a light there puts the only kink in what could and should be a free flow road. if that interchange isn't built for another 10-20 years, how much time, fuel/emissions and vehicle wear and tear will people have wasted because of it?
there are costs to all that too..

let's not do what BC did with SFPR and botch what should have been a nice green transportation link on day 1

Freeways will never be a 'green' transportation link. By that line of thinking, we should make every road a freeway to save the environment.

Even with these upgrades there will still be an intersection at 36 St as well, and who knows what the 'first stage' of the interchanges at 19 and Barlow are too, there may be lights there still. Who cares? As the previous poster says, not every road can or should be a freeway, and Airport Trail is way down the list of importance.

The point is, by spending $50 million on an interchange there, is money that could have been spent on a more important location. I'd suggest as candidates for similar scale upgrades which should come first as anything along 16th or Glenmore east of Deerfoot, or anything on Sarcee. There's probably other roads which the city know of that need an upgrade more than a road that doesn't exist too.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

How so? It’s becoming exactly what it was designed to become years ago. Not every road can be a freeway.

I don't use the road so can't comment too much. But it does look like a road where they couldn't decide what it would be. It's not a freeway, but they still have put in gigantic medians with no apparent purpose, for most of the way. Except in a few spots where it's pinched in - so if the idea was to put in a transit ROW at some point, they ruined the entire thing and all that median space has been wasted.

I do agree there is a lack of foresight with the roads, our suburban network is disgusting. Rather than just building huge ROWs arbitrarily where they can with massive grade intersections, they should decide in advance if the road will be a major one, and build it with space for the future interchanges. But if it isn't going to be a major through route, don't build massive medians and ROWs, as that is a permanent waste of space. Just look at Sarcee, Shaganappi, CHB, Beddington etc. All of them are a mess with no holistic thought of the purpose they should serve, they just built them segment by segment, sometimes building interchanges, sometimes leaving space, and sometimes not.

[Blader]

A little bit of history and other things:
Métis Trail, McKnight and north, was planned to be limited access. The plan changed about the time the airport tunnel was to be built.
The tunnel benefits local traffic now. Upon completion this development will benefit long distance traffic. The few kilometers, with lights, from Stoney to the tunnel won't deter long distance traffic.
Bidding for dollars for all things, limited in supply, requires compromise.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

How so? It’s becoming exactly what it was designed to become years ago. Not every road can be a freeway.

It was never designed to be an urban boulevard. That nonsense is a relatively new idea. It's initial purpose was to provide a fast way for people in the far north to go E/W. The urban boulevard plans need to be shelved immediately and work done to undue the damage already caused.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Acey

"A fast way for people to go east/west" is certainly not something that the City of Calgary would have ever defined, but I don't recall ever seeing a freeway plan for CHB, nor any plan that differs significantly from what it is now.

Never said it was a freeway plan. The "current" plan is definitely not the original plan. Country Hills Blvd. is fairly old and was initially designed/designated as a route to allow people to quickly move from one side of the city to the other. I don't think it really matters what terminology they used. The key point is that it definitely was not intended to be an urban boulevard. Is the city deleting old files to try to convince people otherwise?

[milomilo]

Urban boulevard is an even more lazy term. Does anyone know why they built CHB in the NE so wide? It has a 50m ROW, 20m bigger than Crowchild. That is a horrific waste of space, even if they wanted transit lanes in the middle it's far too big.

I agree with the sentiment that CHB is one of the worst roads in the city, although probably for different reasons than Corndogger. It's one of our many roads that doesn't do anything well, crappy for cars, crappy for bikes, crappy for transit and very, very ugly.

[YYCguys]

Not to mention the stupid speed zones: 80 to 60 to 70 to 60...ugh! Just keep it one speed throughout (70 or 80, cuz 60 is too slow along there).