Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[jubguy3]

From Twitter:

WFRC (@WasatchCouncil)
7/7/14, 5:00 PM
WFRC staff available at SL Central Station Wed 7/9 from 4-7pm for open house on #TIP & regional transportation plans. bit.ly/https://twitter.com/wasatchcouncil/status/486283684610179072

[Hatman]

In this article, 6,000 is the number of passes required to be sold for UTA to break even:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/58157304-90/hive-lake-marketing-mass.html.csp

And there's also this, if you've got a half hour to kill:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogstribtalk/58157440-71/tribtalk-pass-com-sltrib.html.csp

So I still have no idea how this pass works. Somebody is subsidizing somebody, but if it is UTA subsidizing SLC residents, or the city paying UTA to offer its residents passes... I'm still not clear.

One thing from the video... They say that SLC residents travel less miles on transit than the average UTA rider. Which suggests that if other cities were to opt into this program, UTA might charge a different amount for that city's Hive Passes, so that the averages are offset.

Overall, I absolutely love this idea of transit passes being paid for as part of a city utility bill. I think that is the better way to fund transit, rather than paying through sales taxes which climb and dip the with economy. If I were king of the world, I would get rid of sales tax revenue for UTA and instead get that revenue from the municipalities through the utility bills. If you don't have a transit pass, you pay a monthly fee equivalent to what you used to pay in sales tax (assuming you are an average Utah consumer). If you have a transit pass, then you get the extra $30 (or whatever, based on your city) charge.

It should be noted that UTA is not a government organization, but it is a separate company with municipally appointed board members. This makes UTA much more comparable to utility companies than other transit agencies around the country.

Here's a related article from CityLab that is mostly incompatible with Utah's situation, but is a good read anyway:

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/06/h...lly-sustainable-once-and-for-all/372209/

[jubguy3]

Site plan for intermodal hub overhaul (similar to what DUS is, with a slc equivalent of the civic station at 2nd state

[jubguy3]

I made some changes! It's now easier to read and more thorough.

[Hatman]

I'm guessing you've seen these, but it's good to have them posted here:

I'm more concerned with the site plan at the Intermodal Center, as the city plan on the right is more fanciful than practical.

And this:

Where's TRAX in this image? Obviously this is a concept drawing rather than an official plan, but it is similar to what UTA stated in a 2012 planning document. 5 Stories of offices with waiting areas and retail near the bottom.

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by Hatman

I'm more concerned with the site plan at the Intermodal Center, as the city plan on the right is more fanciful than practical.

What's so impractical about it?

[brankrom]

I need to bitch for minute... I ride UTA to work every damn day and today, TODAY is the first I heard that my daily bus was being rerouted away from my stop by 4 blocks. I go to the UTA website and look for anything about proposed changes or change day and I see a come back mid July for information for August change day. Really? 2 weeks before change day and this is the first I hear about proposed changes? Where the hell are the proposed changes on the website? UTA did this exact same thing when they ditched the 203 when I lived in the Sugarhood. Anyone have a link to the changes because searching the RideUTA website for "change day" brings up change day 2012. Real useful.

http://www.rideuta.com/mc/?page=RidingUTA-RouteChanges

ETA: Nevermind I found the proposed changes... it wasn't easy but I found them.

http://www.rideuta.com/uploads/August2014ChangeDayInformation4182014.pdf

So proposed changes: Just what everyone needs EARLIER SERVICE. The change also claims to decrease headways to 30 minutes.... um service is already 30 minutes. At least I still have the 17 and the now hourly 223... Taking the 17 to South Campus Trax it will likely add at least 15 minutes to my commute in the AM who knows what it will do in the PM.

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by brankrom

I need to bitch for minute... I ride UTA to work every damn day and today, TODAY is the first I heard that my daily bus was being rerouted away from my stop by 4 blocks. I go to the UTA website and look for anything about proposed changes or change day and I see a come back mid July for information for August change day. Really? 2 weeks before change day and this is the first I hear about proposed changes? Where the hell are the proposed changes on the website? UTA did this exact same thing when they ditched the 203 when I lived in the Sugarhood. Anyone have a link to the changes because searching the RideUTA website for "change day" brings up change day 2012. Real useful.

http://www.rideuta.com/mc/?page=RidingUTA-RouteChanges

ETA: Nevermind I found the proposed changes... it wasn't easy but I found them.

http://www.rideuta.com/uploads/August2014ChangeDayInformation4182014.pdf

So proposed changes: Just what everyone needs EARLIER SERVICE. The change also claims to decrease headways to 30 minutes.... um service is already 30 minutes. At least I still have the 17 and the now hourly 223... Taking the 17 to South Campus Trax it will likely add at least 15 minutes to my commute in the AM who knows what it will do in the PM.

UTA posted August change day information in mid-April on their website, as well as communicating about the public hearings on Twitter and Facebook. They always post the final schedules exactly a month before change day (which is August 17), so in a week you'll be able to see the new timetables.

The 9 and 17 have 30-minute peak and 60-minute off-peak frequencies currently. After change day, that'll be 30-minute headways all day.

Have you thought about taking the 220? Here's a Google Maps itinerary of a trip that takes about half an hour, shorter than your current 40-minute journey using the 9.

[Old&New]

Liberty at Gateway has already sabotaged those plans...

[UTPlanner]

Don't fall in love with those pictures. It was never anything but a pretty drawing. Cowboy Partners didn't destroy anything that ever existed in reality. A more accurate representation of what could happen is in the RDA's new plans for the Depot District and in the upcoming Downtown Master Plan which includes this area.

[brankrom]

Originally Posted by CountyLemonade

UTA posted August change day information in mid-April on their website, as well as communicating about the public hearings on Twitter and Facebook. They always post the final schedules exactly a month before change day (which is August 17), so in a week you'll be able to see the new timetables.

The 9 and 17 have 30-minute peak and 60-minute off-peak frequencies currently. After change day, that'll be 30-minute headways all day.

Have you thought about taking the 220? Here's a Google Maps itinerary of a trip that takes about half an hour, shorter than your current 40-minute journey using the 9.

I am on all the lists and FB pages and the only thing I ever saw relating to change day was the something about service to SLCC redwood campus.

I suppose I could take the 220 If I wanted to walk up hill a half mile 150 vertical feet in 100 degree heat in the afternoon. It might be shorter time wise on a bus but the commute is still 40 minutes including walking. I'll deal with it, its a first world problem but 4-6 people get on the 9 between 13th and 15th east on the bus that I take in the morning. If I'm on the next later bus at 7:55 20 kids get dropped off by their folks to ride the bus down to the hill to 200 East to the charter school. Not even exaggerating the 23 ft. short bus on the line is standing room only. Add in the vets that use the 9 to get to the VA hospital this change is affecting a lot of riders. Terrible.

The 9 to the U in the AM is also packed every day with about 10 people getting off at the UofU business college on South Campus drive, so NOW they get dropped off at presidents circle. Awesome.

And whats the point? All the change does is duplicate service offered by the UofU transit system by slogging up through campus to the Medical Center.

Look I know that transit isn't door to door service but I choose where I live based on access to transit and to have this happen under my nose with no on bus postings, soliciting comments and no stop elimination notes on the bus stop signs is shitty.

I have a hive pass I'm invested in the system and all the half assed inconveniences that entails including non existent evening service. But hey there's a flex bus in Daybreak and 14 suburban enclaves providing door to door service in BFE.

[jubguy3]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/86560...pproval-for-bus-rapid-transit-route.html

Long story short, UTA gains Davis county approval for south Davis corridor.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/86560...pproval-for-bus-rapid-transit-route.html

Long story short, UTA gains Davis county approval for south Davis corridor.

This makes me happy. That part of Davis County is not a good fit for a Streetcar, we're not building a neighborhood with mad TOD potential, we're transporting people fast into Salt Lake City. It's never made sense for a place as close to SLC as Bountiful to pay the FrontRunner fare. The Express bus that pretty much runs this route does very well, so there is something to build on and improve here. I'm really happy about this choice, I only hope that Ogden makes the right choice as well and goes with BRT to WSU instead of a streetcar. Though Ogden would be a great place for streetcars (downtown Ogden). We need to understand that Streetcars are for building neighborhoods with TOD potential or that already exist with that need that can be served, but it is not a distance commuter strategy. Doing a Streetcar from the Ogden FrontRunner station to WSU is as stupid as doing a streetcar through downtown up 400 south (instead of Light Rail) to the University of Utah to connect people from FrontRunner to the UofU.

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

It's never made sense for a place as close to SLC as Bountiful to pay the FrontRunner fare.

People going from B-town to Salt Lake on FrontRunner pay the same fare ($2.50) as those taking a local bus.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by CountyLemonade

What's so impractical about it?

I should have chosen my words with better care. Unlikely is the better word. For all those mid-block pedestrian walkways forming a circle, a developer would have to re-purpose all 4 of those blocks. That or the city would have to impose such a plan on a developer, which I also consider unlikely.

I guess I laughed mostly at the generous amount of green space around and oftentimes between the railroad tracks. I especially like the pond in the middle of Grant's Tower. I notice the train stuff first. I'm a transportation geek more than a urban geek...


Also, I think I may be partly responsible for the conversation on the SLC thread that ended with this:

Originally Posted by jubguy3

I think the bombardier bilevel cars (which I assume you are talking about) probably can go 110 mph, as I can not find a speed limit for the actual cars. I'd assume the speed is within a reasonable realm so as that the cars don't fall apart. If you are talking about some other bombardier train, please explain. What I'm worried about is the comet cars as they are very old. I'd like to see them get an interior upgrade so they aesthetically match the bombardiers and get an official "quiet" designation, as well as paneling so they shape with the locomotives and the bombardiers to increase efficiency.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=199234&page=476

It should be noted that current FrontRunner equipment is rated for 90 mph - both locomotives and cars. They feasibly could go faster if upgraded from UTA's purchasing and refurbishing specs, but that would cost money. The track also is class IV track, meaning that in order to increase speeds it would need to be upgraded to a higher class (class V = 90 mph and class VI = 110, the fastest speed allowed where there are grade-crossings with roads). To upgrade track to those tolerance levels, and also to maintain that track at that tolerance level, costs exponentially more than maintaining the current class IV track, which is maintained to standard fright-road carrier specs and thus very cheap to maintain by rail standards.
Also, with diesel trains which cannot accelerate very quickly, there is no economical gain in going over 79 mph. The brief time the train would spend at speed would be negligible compared to the cost of extra fuel. Yes diesel trains go just that fast in Illinois and in Michigan, but they are not commuter trains.
My point is not that 110 mph won't happen - it is that it won't happen nearly as soon as people's timelines suppose. UTA would not only need to rebuild (and double track) the alignment, but also electrify it, then buy quick-accelerating EMU (electric multiple unit) trainsets, and then construct passing sidings for express trains to safely bypass stations while at speed.
I can see it happening, but not soon.

[Hatman]

I agree with this on all counts.

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

This makes me happy. That part of Davis County is not a good fit for a Streetcar, we're not building a neighborhood with mad TOD potential, we're transporting people fast into Salt Lake City. It's never made sense for a place as close to SLC as Bountiful to pay the FrontRunner fare. The Express bus that pretty much runs this route does very well, so there is something to build on and improve here. I'm really happy about this choice, I only hope that Ogden makes the right choice as well and goes with BRT to WSU instead of a streetcar. Though Ogden would be a great place for streetcars (downtown Ogden). We need to understand that Streetcars are for building neighborhoods with TOD potential or that already exist with that need that can be served, but it is not a distance commuter strategy. Doing a Streetcar from the Ogden FrontRunner station to WSU is as stupid as doing a streetcar through downtown up 400 south (instead of Light Rail) to the University of Utah to connect people from FrontRunner to the UofU.

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by Hatman

I should have chosen my words with better care. Unlikely is the better word. For all those mid-block pedestrian walkways forming a circle, a developer would have to re-purpose all 4 of those blocks. That or the city would have to impose such a plan on a developer, which I also consider unlikely.

I guess I laughed mostly at the generous amount of green space around and oftentimes between the railroad tracks. I especially like the pond in the middle of Grant's Tower. I notice the train stuff first. I'm a transportation geek more than a urban geek...

Completely fair. It would have been exceedingly lovely if that plan were adhered to, though. West downtown would be such a fantastic place in which to hang out.

[bob rulz]

Just a random comment from somebody who uses transit frequently.

I think, besides increasing service later into the evening, decreasing the route times (meaning, not have so much extra time that forces buses to idle), and improving transfers and connections (it can't be perfect, but it's not hard to imagine how it could be improved), I think a key part of getting more people riding the bus is making people WANT to ride the bus.

I feel like the little things can go a long way. I'm sure it's the kind of thing that's low on the priority list, but it amazes me how many high-traffic bus stops don't even have simple benches, or the land around them is very trashy and dumpy. I know UTA doesn't own the actual land around bus stops or anything, but so many of those places (often in high volume areas) are just not areas that are fun or inviting to hang around waiting for a bus. I find myself walking a few extra minutes to a stop with a bench, or that just looks better and feels more comfortable, and I often see others doing the same thing. I'm not proposing a bench at every stop, and I have no experience with other transit systems, so I don't know if this is normal, but I feel like it hampers the experience. I also feel like they could make some upgrades to the actual bus stop signage as well, but I'm less knowledgeable in proposing upgrades in that department.

How does the budget for that work anyway? Is it UTA's responsibility to install benches or is it the city's job?

Also some of the ticket stations at the TRAX stops are in desperate need of upgrades. Many of them are so scratched up and old that they have a hard time registering touchscreen input, and the scratches in the screen make them look REALLY run-down. There's been more than once that I've given up trying to pay for a ticket, because the screen wasn't registering my input, that I end up just jumping on without paying (which trust me, I don't like doing, but in that case, what are you going to do?). Most of the time it feels like a struggle to do so even if I do end up buying one.

I feel like it's little things like this that make a huge difference. People who have to use public transit will do so, but I think the trick is getting people who DON'T have to use it, to WANT to use it. It starts with increasing efficiency and coverage, but making it feel safe and comfortable to use (and wait for) is just as important imo. I feel like many people will just refuse to use buses or transit in general because it makes them feel "poor". I don't think this is nearly as much of an issue in cities that have excellent transit services (such as Portland or Washington, D.C., or New York of course, but obviously Salt Lake will never compete with that).

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Just a random comment from somebody who uses transit frequently.

I think, besides increasing service later into the evening, decreasing the route times (meaning, not have so much extra time that forces buses to idle), and improving transfers and connections (it can't be perfect, but it's not hard to imagine how it could be improved), I think a key part of getting more people riding the bus is making people WANT to ride the bus.

I feel like the little things can go a long way. I'm sure it's the kind of thing that's low on the priority list, but it amazes me how many high-traffic bus stops don't even have simple benches, or the land around them is very trashy and dumpy. I know UTA doesn't own the actual land around bus stops or anything, but so many of those places (often in high volume areas) are just not areas that are fun or inviting to hang around waiting for a bus. I find myself walking a few extra minutes to a stop with a bench, or that just looks better and feels more comfortable, and I often see others doing the same thing. I'm not proposing a bench at every stop, and I have no experience with other transit systems, so I don't know if this is normal, but I feel like it hampers the experience. I also feel like they could make some upgrades to the actual bus stop signage as well, but I'm less knowledgeable in proposing upgrades in that department.

How does the budget for that work anyway? Is it UTA's responsibility to install benches or is it the city's job?

Also some of the ticket stations at the TRAX stops are in desperate need of upgrades. Many of them are so scratched up and old that they have a hard time registering touchscreen input, and the scratches in the screen make them look REALLY run-down. There's been more than once that I've given up trying to pay for a ticket, because the screen wasn't registering my input, that I end up just jumping on without paying (which trust me, I don't like doing, but in that case, what are you going to do?). Most of the time it feels like a struggle to do so even if I do end up buying one.

I feel like it's little things like this that make a huge difference. People who have to use public transit will do so, but I think the trick is getting people who DON'T have to use it, to WANT to use it. It starts with increasing efficiency and coverage, but making it feel safe and comfortable to use (and wait for) is just as important imo. I feel like many people will just refuse to use buses or transit in general because it makes them feel "poor". I don't think this is nearly as much of an issue in cities that have excellent transit services (such as Portland or Washington, D.C., or New York of course, but obviously Salt Lake will never compete with that).

Agreed. The upper university machines SUCK. There's this budget to give all of the other ones constant maintainence and shiny screens, and here's the university ones that ALL have a huge black blob in the screen.

Next time bus info should help the stops, and when bus plus gets implemented service should be a little nicer.

[bob rulz]

It's not just an issue there. I live closest to the 33rd South stop, and the screens there are very run-down as well. Same at the 21st South stop (my other most-used stop).

I'm sure the newer lines have better screens, but I never have a need to ride those ones, and the majority of traffic is still on the Sandy/Salt Lake/University lines (although I'm sure the Airport gets a lot, too). It would be nice to see UTA invest some money into the older stops.