Canadian Retail Thread

[Slide]

Originally Posted by zahav

The Bay is closing their downtown Edmonton location. Symbolically it is sad since The Bay is kind of a hallmark of Canada's downtowns, and is a huge part of Canada's retail history. The article even mentions how Edmonton will be the only major city in Canada without a department store (Holt Renfrew closed earlier this year). I'm sure this is disappointing to a lot of people, again symbolically, since I'm sure a lot of forumers here wouldn't have shopped there necessarily. The article is a good read though

https://www.retail-insider.com/retai...fter-207-years

Like you mention, i think the hit is much more symbolic. I used to work right near it and it was always a ghost town inside. Both the downtown Bay and Holts were terrible stores, there departure was not surprising to me. Downtown's weak retail scene certainly didn't help.

Again, symbolically, it doesn't look good, especially after the city invested so much into the arena as a catalyst for downtown revitalization, only to have long established retailers close up shop. I'm certainly more on the pessimistic (realistic?) side of things, but I'd say Edmonton missed the boat on a downtown retail revival (particularly in respect to clothing shops). With the general decline of brick and mortar, and now accelerated with the pandemic, I think the future of Edmonton's downtown as any kind of destination will rely exclusively on restaurants and the arena, not shopping.

[Prairiedawg]

It probably has been coming for a while now that The Bay in downtown Edmonton would close.
Edmonton's second largest mall, Kingsway Mall with it's The Bay store is a much busier mall and is only a couple kms from Edmonton City Center Mall, plus Edmonton has several other The Bay stores in the city.

With the loss of City Centre The Bay, Edmonton now has same number of The Bay stores as Calgary.
Another sign of the times with new normal now too.

[Loco101]

I don't think that there will be any Hudson's Bay department stores left in a few years. I just don't know anyone who goes there to shop anymore. Is HBC still owned and controlled by Americans?

The brand name of the company is quite valuable, especially historically, and I can see smaller HBC stores opening that sell HBC trademark products. For example, the blankets, certain clothing, things tourists would buy and various speciality products. I can also see the HBC division being sold off and becoming totally Canadian controlled.

The smaller HBC stores would be found in very busy and touristy areas as well as in major Canadian airports.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I don't think that there will be any Hudson's Bay department stores left in a few years. I just don't know anyone who goes there to shop anymore. Is HBC still owned and controlled by Americans?

The brand name of the company is quite valuable, especially historically, and I can see smaller HBC stores opening that sell HBC trademark products. For example, the blankets, certain clothing, things tourists would buy and various speciality products. I can also see the HBC division being sold off and becoming totally Canadian controlled.

The smaller HBC stores would be found in very busy and touristy areas as well as in major Canadian airports.

I went to their store in downtown Vancouver on a Friday evening last summer, and it was almost deserted. Meanwhile a block away there were big crowds at Zara and various other stores on Robson Street.

More recently, just before Christmas, I’d been to the Scarborough Town Centre location. Very little traffic in there compared to Walmart and the rest of the mall. Their downtown Toronto store was quite busy when I was last in there, but they benefit from being connected to the PATH and having food vendors on the lower level.

I do foresee they will keep some of their stores, particularly the nicer ones in more affluent areas, but I also predict many will close. Downtown Toronto is probably safe, but smaller, more outdated stores like Fairview Mall or Lime Ridge in Hamilton may not.

I think the era of the department store is going to be over after the pandemic. Walmart will be a big winner on one end of the market. But I also think The Bay will live on in some way as the value of that brand in Canada is huge - way more than even Eaton’s was.

[connect2source]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I don't think that there will be any Hudson's Bay department stores left in a few years. I just don't know anyone who goes there to shop anymore. Is HBC still owned and controlled by Americans?

The brand name of the company is quite valuable, especially historically, and I can see smaller HBC stores opening that sell HBC trademark products. For example, the blankets, certain clothing, things tourists would buy and various speciality products. I can also see the HBC division being sold off and becoming totally Canadian controlled.

The smaller HBC stores would be found in very busy and touristy areas as well as in major Canadian airports.

I'd say the next on the chopping-block will be the downtown Winnipeg location, Calgary can't be far behind. Vancouver will likely survive, it's connected to Pacific Centre, consistently Canada's #2 or #3 performing mall but I could see it shrinking significantly. The adjacent Nordstrom is optimized at 3 floors as is the Holt's. Hudson's Bay would be smart to downsize to roughly the same size, completely renovate to the quality and appeal of Nordstrom and carry a fair bit of upmarket merchandise to appeal to the Vancouver shopper.

Downtown Vancouver remains robust, has enough nearby density to support downtown retail and doesn't have a massive 'power mall' like Chinook, Yorkdale or WEM to compete with. Metrotown doesn't have a massive effect on downtown, enough distance to separate it, Oakridge, although a great performing centre is small and limited and currently under-construction.

[Innsertnamehere]

HBC has two types of stores. One is fairly updated and busy, the other are ghost towns. And they have far more of the latter kind than they need.

Their Eaton Centre and Yorkdale stores do pretty well. I shop at the Eaton centre location frequently.

Their other locations border on depressing. stores like Yonge/Bloor, eglinton square, Burlington centre, etc. Are almost certainly massive money losers and need to close immediately.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

HBC has two types of stores. One is fairly updated and busy, the other are ghost towns. And they have far more of the latter kind than they need.

Their Eaton Centre and Yorkdale stores do pretty well. I shop at the Eaton centre location frequently.

Their other locations border on depressing. stores like Yonge/Bloor, eglinton square, Burlington centre, etc. Are almost certainly massive money losers and need to close immediately.

I can see Eglinton Square being one of the first to close. That has always struck me as a strange location for a Hudson’s Bay, in an area dominated by No Frills and Walmart.

Fairview Mall doesn’t have the nicest Bay location but it’s a major enough regional mall with a lot of higher end condos under construction nearby that it’s more likely to survive. That store also likely benefited from the exit of Sears from that mall in late 2017.

In London, I could see them leaving White Oaks and having only Masonville. White Oaks isn’t as affluent an area of London as the north end where Masonville is located.

[zahav]

The Downtown Van one is pretty busy in most parts, and it already has been reduced over the years AFAIK (I think WeWork or someone took some upper floors). But I can't see it shutting as long as the company is around (ie. it would only close if the entire chain closes). But they have done lots of renos and it is a flagship for them so don't see it going.

Most sources say Winnipeg is next, unfortunately

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by zahav

The Downtown Van one is pretty busy in most parts, and it already has been reduced over the years AFAIK (I think WeWork or someone took some upper floors). But I can't see it shutting as long as the company is around (ie. it would only close if the entire chain closes). But they have done lots of renos and it is a flagship for them so don't see it going.

Most sources say Winnipeg is next, unfortunately

WeWork didn’t happen. The Bay still uses all 8 floors. I find that it’s generally busy. The amount of square footage spreads it out thinly in some areas though. I remember someone who worked there told me that Nordstrom opening actually increased their business, but that was a while ago.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I went to their store in downtown Vancouver on a Friday evening last summer, and it was almost deserted. Meanwhile a block away there were big crowds at Zara and various other stores on Robson Street.

More recently, just before Christmas, I’d been to the Scarborough Town Centre location. Very little traffic in there compared to Walmart and the rest of the mall. Their downtown Toronto store was quite busy when I was last in there, but they benefit from being connected to the PATH and having food vendors on the lower level.

I do foresee they will keep some of their stores, particularly the nicer ones in more affluent areas, but I also predict many will close. Downtown Toronto is probably safe, but smaller, more outdated stores like Fairview Mall or Lime Ridge in Hamilton may not.

I think the era of the department store is going to be over after the pandemic. Walmart will be a big winner on one end of the market. But I also think The Bay will live on in some way as the value of that brand in Canada is huge - way more than even Eaton’s was.

I've been to the one in downtown Vancouver earlier this year. Usually I just take the elevators right up to the Mens Floor on 6 but this time I took the escalator. I was really impressed at the job The Bay had done with each floor. The store was light years ahead of every tragic Macys I've been in over the last few years. It was clear they had spent time and money outfitting the store.

I would really hate to see it close. It is a big piece of Canadian history, plus I've never understood the appeal of schlepping along a mall's length from store to store looking for a pair of pants. Online is OK but you can't judge sizing, fabrics etc. There was also a study that showed the economic impact of an NHL team was only equal to that of a large downtown department store. That may be slightly out of date but politicians can't seem to resist throwing money at pro-sports.

What the Vancouver Bay needs is some better food offer. Nordstrom has Bistro Verde and a bar, The Bay needs something like that to make it more of an experience.

[dreambrother808]

Yes, Macy’s looked like they were on the verge of closing at any moment for a long time. The Bay doesn’t have that vibe but poorly upkept suburban stores veer in that direction.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

In London, I could see them leaving White Oaks and having only Masonville. White Oaks isn’t as affluent an area of London as the north end where Masonville is located.

Part of that decision might be whether they own or lease at Masonville. They own their White Oaks store and I doubt they would easily sell it. Plus it's a much nicer store than the Masonville one is. I think at Masonville, they just took the Eaton's sign down, put The Bay sign up and did next to nothing with the place.

[Martin Mtl]

The Montreal downtown store will be upgraded, but part of it will close. The back side on the De Maisonneuve (a bad brutalist addition) will become a condo tower. The historic part on Ste-Catherine will host the refurbished store.

[Loco101]

The last HBC store that I went into was in the West Edmonton Mall last Summer. My wife and I couldn't believe how uninteresting the store was. Prices were really high and many of the same items could be found at other stores for much less. There was no feeling of nostalgia or uniqueness there. Very disorganized in some departments. Not busy at all even though it was Saturday and there were lots of people in the mall. I worked about 10 years in retail and could really tell that stores like that won't last much longer.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by zahav

The Bay is closing their downtown Edmonton location. Symbolically it is sad since The Bay is kind of a hallmark of Canada's downtowns, and is a huge part of Canada's retail history. The article even mentions how Edmonton will be the only major city in Canada without a department store (Holt Renfrew closed earlier this year). I'm sure this is disappointing to a lot of people, again symbolically, since I'm sure a lot of forumers here wouldn't have shopped there necessarily. The article is a good read though

https://www.retail-insider.com/retai...fter-207-years

Sad news, but not at all suprising. HBC has been slowly declining for years. The current ownership seems to be treating it as a real estate company at the moment, flipping billions worth of big city downtown propreties.

Ottawa's Holt Renfrew, situated at the west end of Sparks Street in an massive office building closed about the time Nordstrom annouced they would take over the Sears space in the Rideau Centre. I guess Holt figured "screw it, not worth trying to compete" and scrammed.

Downtown Ottawa is left with three department stores, Nordstrom and Simons as tenants of the Rideau Centre, and HBC across the street (building still owned and operated by HBC), connecting via a skywalk. They renovated the interior of HBC, but it's nothing like Toronto or Vancouver. Very little was done to the exterior, other than removing a skywalk (second smaller skywalk) pubching a hole in the historic façade. The ByWard Market side remains an 80s re-clad monstrosity.

Originally Posted by Loco101

I don't think that there will be any Hudson's Bay department stores left in a few years. I just don't know anyone who goes there to shop anymore. Is HBC still owned and controlled by Americans?

The brand name of the company is quite valuable, especially historically, and I can see smaller HBC stores opening that sell HBC trademark products. For example, the blankets, certain clothing, things tourists would buy and various speciality products. I can also see the HBC division being sold off and becoming totally Canadian controlled.

The smaller HBC stores would be found in very busy and touristy areas as well as in major Canadian airports.

That would actually be a pretty good fate for HBC. It could become something like Roots, a series of smaller stores with corporate brand marchandise at airports, malls and downtown street front retail accross the country. I don't see that happening though, unless it's sold to a Canadian owner after its stripped from its real-estate holdings.

What will ultimately become of the historic HBC buildings is the question. We've seen successufull repurposings of the historic buildings in Victoria and Edmonton (in both cities, HBC abandoned their old stand-alone locations for newer downtown malls). It will be harder to do with massive stores like Vancouver, Toronto and Winnipeg if/when the time comes.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

The Montreal downtown store will be upgraded, but part of it will close. The back side on the De Maisonneuve (a bad brutalist addition) will become a condo tower. The historic part on Ste-Catherine will host the refurbished store.

Good to hear. I would hope to see the same in Ottawa on the ByWard Market side, or at least remove the orange 80s pannels to reveal the original brick and windows (not as ornate as the Rideau frontage, but far better than the crap we have now).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Sad news, but not at all suprising. HBC has been slowly declining for years. The current ownership seems to be treating it as a real estate company at the moment, flipping billions worth of big city downtown propreties.

Ottawa's Holt Renfrew, situated at the west end of Sparks Street in an massive office building closed about the time Nordstrom annouced they would take over the Sears space in the Rideau Centre. I guess Holt figured "screw it, not worth trying to compete" and scrammed.

Downtown Ottawa is left with three department stores, Nordstrom and Simons as tenants of the Rideau Centre, and HBC across the street (building still owned and operated by HBC), connecting via a skywalk. They renovated the interior of HBC, but it's nothing like Toronto or Vancouver. Very little was done to the exterior, other than removing a skywalk (second smaller skywalk) pubching a hole in the historic façade. The ByWard Market side remains an 80s re-clad monstrosity.



That would actually be a pretty good fate for HBC. It could become something like Roots, a series of smaller stores with corporate brand marchandise at airports, malls and downtown street front retail accross the country. I don't see that happening though, unless it's sold to a Canadian owner after its stripped from its real-estate holdings.

What will ultimately become of the historic HBC buildings is the question. We've seen successufull repurposings of the historic buildings in Victoria and Edmonton (in both cities, HBC abandoned their old stand-alone locations for newer downtown malls). It will be harder to do with massive stores like Vancouver, Toronto and Winnipeg if/when the time comes.

Nordstroms Rideau Centre has been pretty much a ghost town anytime I've gone in. I suspect it's not long for this world. Ottawa could well see all three of its core department stores close (at least I wouldn't be surprised if it happened).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Nordstroms Rideau Centre has been pretty much a ghost town anytime I've gone in. I suspect it's not long for this world. Ottawa could well see all three of its core department stores close (at least I wouldn't be surprised if it happened).

Simons is always very busy. I have absolutely no worries surrounding this one. Nordstom is a tought call. It seems empty, but Rideau is consistently one of the highest performing malls in Canada, so it might be doing better than it looks.

I'm quite sure HBC's days are numbered.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Simons is always very busy. I have absolutely no worries surrounding this one. Nordstom is a tought call. It seems empty, but Rideau is consistently one of the highest performing malls in Canada, so it might be doing better than it looks.

I'm quite sure HBC's days are numbered.

I also thought that Simons was doing well (after a slow start), but the recent article in the G&M about Simons indicated that it was an "underperforming" location.

[stevanford1]

HBC is doomed imo. Haven't seen a busy one in years! Here's a good piece on them from the New York Time's!
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/b...an-marcus.html