[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Don't go popping those champagne corks just yet.

Material choices aside, I am seeing complaints on a regular basis from urbanists on social media about the vague design of Argyle resulting in cars parking to patronize businesses and trucks making deliveries to businesses, both of which they think are in violation of various aspects of the design. It seems clear that HRM Council cares not one whit for the needs of businesses as evidenced both by this and the recent decision to eliminate much parking on South Park St. An urban core whose city does things to discourage them from doing business succesfully will soon be a wasteland.

I'm actually with you on the South Park St decision. I'm all for Aryle st and Grafton St shared street concept and I bike and am for bike lanes but getting rid of more parking spcaces to me is a mistake. Between bike lanes, permit parking and construction it is getting very hard to find parking. It's just too much all at once.

[Keith P.]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/15...breaking-news&utm_campaign=breaking-news

I confess I was unaware of Sutton Place hotels aside from the one in Toronto which has always been very good. But this is a top-end operator so it probably matches the image the developer wanted.

[MonctonRad]

Sutton Place Hotels is a good catch.

In Toronto (at least) it (and the Four Seasons) are the places to be seen during TIFF

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/15...breaking-news&utm_campaign=breaking-news

I confess I was unaware of Sutton Place hotels aside from the one in Toronto which has always been very good. But this is a top-end operator so it probably matches the image the developer wanted.

The Toronto Sutton Place is gone. It was converted to condos. There is still one in Vancouver.

Hopefully this will be upscale. The other newer hotels downtown are all mid-range or lower. As far as I'm aware, there's no Four Seasons equivalent in Halifax.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

The Toronto Sutton Place is gone. It was converted to condos. There is still one in Vancouver.

When did this happen??

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

The Toronto Sutton Place is gone. It was converted to condos. There is still one in Vancouver.

Hopefully this will be upscale. The other newer hotels downtown are all mid-range or lower. As far as I'm aware, there's no Four Seasons equivalent in Halifax.

Oh, that's right about Toronto, I had forgotten. Closed about 5 years ago. Apparently it had been sold and was allowed to run down. I know when I used to travel frequently to Toronto on business in the '90s it was the place to stay.

The Sutton Place group has properties in Vancouver, Revelstoke and Edmonton, with one under construction in Winnipeg. The one in Edmonton is the old Sheraton which they renovated but which does not get good reviews, so perhaps my initial assessment was a bit premature.

[RangerNS]

Who stays at hotels where you don't get points and you don't have status? (obviously, someone)

I was at 4 nights in the Mexico City Four Seasons 3 weeks ago. Noped right out of that to move to the Sheraton up the road for the next couple of months, even as the company was willing to pay for the allegedly fancier place.

[connect2source]

Disappointing, was gunning for premium Marriott or Hilton banners, Fairmont would have been great too! Our Sutton Place property in Vancouver is certainly past it's prime and has been outgunned by all the recent 5 start additions like Shangri-La, Trump and most recently The Douglas and JW Marriott.

[ns_kid]

At today's official announcement of the new Sutton Place Hotel for the Nova Centre, CEO Tom Gaglardi had praise for the developer of the property saying, according to Global, "It makes perfect sense to partner with another well-established family like the Ramias." He continued with his praise of the building: "It took incredible foresight and courage to accomplish this magnificent structure."

According to CBC, Gaglardi said he's been looking to make the chain coast-to-coast for last six or seven years, but had a tough time finding the right land or existing hotel to rebrand. It's still not clear why it's taken this long to close the deal with Ramia, who has been hinting for a couple of years that an announcement was imminent. Previous reports had Ramia in conversation with Marriott and Hyatt. Gaglari said it's a very desirable market adding, "I think it certainly leaves you punching way above your weight class, given you're only a city of 400,000 people."

The hotel is slated to open following interior construction one year from now, with 262 "luxury" rooms, a restaurant, and underground parking. Current Sutton rack rates for a king room range from $158 in Edmonton to $245 in Vancouver which don't really seem to be luxury prices. But, as partial as I have been to Marriott in recent years, I am glad to see a new brand in the Halifax market.

Ramia, by the way, says commercial space at Nova Centre is now 70% rented. More tenant announcements are - you guessed it - imminent.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Gaglari said it's a very desirable market adding, "I think it certainly leaves you punching way above your weight class, given you're only a city of 400,000 people."

This is just a tangent but I used to think this notion of populations and "weight classes" was confined mostly to SSP and similar enthusiasts. Here in Western Canada however it comes up fairly often. There is a strong growth mentality and population is treated like the single number that captures how important a city is.

Around the world this relationship doesn't hold much at all. Monaco has 38,000 people and I bet it has some fancy hotels that put those of much more populous cities to shame. Halifax is obviously not like Monaco but it is a regional centre that gets more tourism than it otherwise would. To me it's unsurprising that it has nicer hotels, a busier airport, etc. than cities with a similar population elsewhere in North America that are just branch plant towns or bedroom communities.

Somehow Park City, Utah ended up with a Waldorf Astoria hotel and it has under 8,000 people. The developers must have gotten mixed up on their way to downtown Salt Lake City!

[Keith P.]

I hope this works out. I often wonder about the Prince George, which has always been a well-appointed and well-run hotel in a good location that is far too small. I am unsure if they are constrained by a view plane from building any taller or if that size was by choice. I find it interesting that the relatively compact Prince George has 203 rooms while the much larger new hotel structure in Nova Centre claims just 260. They must be quite large!

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I hope this works out. I often wonder about the Prince George, which has always been a well-appointed and well-run hotel in a good location that is far too small. I am unsure if they are constrained by a view plane from building any taller or if that size was by choice. I find it interesting that the relatively compact Prince George has 203 rooms while the much larger new hotel structure in Nova Centre claims just 260. They must be quite large!

Numbers appear to add up. I count 12 floors on the NC hotel, and 5 full floors one the PG (plus maybe some ground floor units?). However, the PG is a full block wide, while NC is only half.

I do wonder why the PG was built so short. Maybe it was just a product of a time when downtown land wasn't highly valued? Actually... I just looked and the site is under both VP 4 and 5. Looking at the Homburg building though, I think the PG could have been taller in parts. I guess they just decided it wasn't worth it?

[q12]

Here is a view of the Prince George Hotel taken from the 19th floor of the Sutton Place Hotel yesterday:


Source:https://twitter.com/shainaluck/status/974360799094468609


Source:https://twitter.com/duckiedigit/status/974360727510290432

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I hope this works out. I often wonder about the Prince George, which has always been a well-appointed and well-run hotel in a good location that is far too small. I am unsure if they are constrained by a view plane from building any taller or if that size was by choice. I find it interesting that the relatively compact Prince George has 203 rooms while the much larger new hotel structure in Nova Centre claims just 260. They must be quite large!

I remember reading a comment from a developer years ago who said he thought Halifax had too many small hotels without many amenities. The city could have a nicer 500 room hotel but that might not happen as long as a new 200 room hotel is built every few years.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I remember reading a comment from a developer years ago who said he thought Halifax had too many small hotels without many amenities. The city could have a nicer 500 room hotel but that might not happen as long as a new 200 room hotel is built every few years.

I remember Bernie Smith used to say that as well, when he was running one of the business commissions. I suppose the Westin comes closest to that here, but even it only has 310 rooms. Given its age it is a constant struggle to keep it updated and it is not in the most convenient location. The NC hotel just looks from the outside like it ought to have more rooms than it does, but I guess that can be deceptive.

[Jonovision]

20180316_181648 by Jonovision23, on Flickr

[OldDartmouthMark]

https://www.thestar.com/halifax/2018/04/...-news-story-despite-growing-deficit.html

Regional council voted on Tuesday to pay back the province about $300,000 spent by Events East, the Crown corporation set up to run the convention centre, on sales and marketing back in 2016.

Council also voted to pay the municipality’s half of whatever Events East spent this past year – likely about $2 million.

What that means for the special convention centre account is that a balance projected to be almost $6 million for the first year the convention centre was complete is actually about $2 million, says a staff report before council on Tuesday. The projected balance for the second year was $4.8 million; now it’s negative, and projected to stay that way.

In Year 10, the balance is projected to be a $17-million deficit.

Money that could have been put towards a stadium?

That said, I'm sure office vacancy rates won't be bad forever, so one would think this should turn around eventually.

[someone123]

Is the office vacancy rate (which has gone up due to construction, not negative absorption) even relevant to this at all? I thought that part of the project was private. Assessments aren't tied to vacancy rates.

But in general the idea of setting aside property taxes from specific projects to pay for other specific things does seem silly. You don't need to do that for a project to be revenue-neutral. I'm not sure how it changes the overall finances though. HRM collects the revenue it collects.

What is with this trend in Halifax reporting to write articles full of confusing vaguely negative factoids that don't connect together in coherent way and don't provide the full context?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

Is the office vacancy rate (which has gone up due to construction, not negative absorption) even relevant to this at all? I thought that part of the project was private. Assessments aren't tied to vacancy rates.

The city administrators seem to think that it's relevant:

But in general the idea of setting aside property taxes from specific projects to pay for other specific things does seem silly. You don't need to do that for a project to be revenue-neutral. I'm not sure how it changes the overall finances though. HRM collects the revenue it collects.

All well and good, but isn't the salient point that for this particular project, Halifax's taxpayers will be paying more than originally anticipated, or at least have less funding available for other projects?



https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default/files/documents/city-hall/regional-council/180410rc1423.pdf

Maybe it's not an issue - as the booked conventions will probably provide spinoff benefits that are not easy to quantify, but surely will be positive.

However, it doesn't seem unreasonable for there to be some media attention when tax money is spent on a project like this - you may perceive it as unnecessary negativity, but the public should still be made aware of the circumstances. They can think for themselves and decide whether it's reasonable or not.

What is with this trend in Halifax reporting to write articles full of confusing vaguely negative factoids that don't connect together in coherent way and don't provide the full context?

Is that a Halifax-only thing? Seems to me that the level of media reporting has declined everywhere.

[OldDartmouthMark]

And, FWIW, here's CBC's take on it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-convention-centre-costs-council-1.4613238