[Moncton] Centre Avenir Centre | 26.65m |~6 Fl | Completed

[Patapouf26]

Originally Posted by NBNYer

At this point, why is it not possible to make the 2 proposals from EllisDon and Bird construction public? This would certainly further galvanize support among the electorate and possibly apply some political pressure from the city.

I thought this was a great question so I decided to ask counselor at large Dawn Arnold, using word for word (I hope you don't mind). Here's her answer :

The fact is (as you know) this is an enormous project with a lot at stake for each of the proponents. Each of them has spent well over $250,000 each, just preparing the proposals (I've heard guesstimates as high as $500,000+). So, if word gets out before a decision is made, there is a possibility that there could be some "influence peddling" (probably not the right terms, but you get my drift). However, I did confirm yesterday that each of the proponents, as part of their submissions, have created a "virtual tour" of their proposed building. So, as soon as the funding is secured and Council makes a decision on the winning proponent, then everyone will be able to see what the project will look like...which I think will go a long way toward everyone's understanding of what this project can do for our City. Components of each bid we know must include: public plazas, must tie into the existing streetscape, 20,000 sq ft of meeting space, flexible concert space, a master plan (for the interface between the site and the other 11 acres), a gameday restaurant, and the building itself must be LEEDs certified and architecturally significant.

So I think we can all agree that it would be great to see them before funding is secured, but that is not happening as MonctonRad mentionned. The city will need other ways to boost momentum.

[Patapouf26]

She (Dawn Arnold) also added :

I feel confident that our Provincial government understands the real value of this project to the future of our province and will make the right decision soon on their $24 million investment...and investment that will take place over the next few years. The $24 million is divided up into $9 million in replacement funding (through Build Canada) and $15 million in direct funding (that would probably not be payable until the project is complete, I'm thinking).

She's seems confident... I'm assuming she may know more than we do or it may be political posturing.

[MonctonRad]

Or wishful thinking.

I have great respect for Dawn Arnold, she is a tremendous city councillor (and possibly future mayor), but the funding for the events centre is a house of cards. Timing is everything,

- I agree that the province will likely provide funding - eventually (but not until after the next federal election).
- The stumbling block will then be federal funding, which is currently in place in terms of "in kind" financing. Depending on the results of the federal election, there will very likely be further delays, if not downright loss of interest, especially if the local MLA is an opposition member.
- The project therefore will likely be delayed by several years, requiring a retendering process. In the meantime, those developers interesting in investing in surrounding properties (like the Aquillini's) will likely have lost interest and moved on to other projects in different jurisdictions.

The events centre is really a "now or never" thing. Petty politics should not be involved.

[Patapouf26]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Or wishful thinking.

I have great respect for Dawn Arnold, she is a tremendous city councillor (and possibly future mayor), but the funding for the events centre is a house of cards. Timing is everything,

- I agree that the province will likely provide funding - eventually (and not until after the next federal election).
- The stumbling block will then be federal funding, which is currently in place in terms of "in kind" financing. Depending on the results of the federal election, there will very likely be further delays, if not downright loss of interest, especially if the local MLA is an opposition member.
- The project therefore will likely be delayed by several years, requiring a retendering process. In the meantime, those developers interesting in investing in surrounding properties (like the Aquillini's) will likely have lost interest and moved on to other projects in different jurisdictions.

The events centre is really a "now or never" thing. Petty politics should not be involved.

I'm sure she'd agree with you on timing and I'm sure you'd agree with me that she will do what is within her power. I fear the decisions are most likely out of her (and the rest of city council's) hands. Powerless of helpless really...

[David_99]

Moncton-Riverview-Dieppe Conservative MP Robert Goguen says a $107-million downtown sports and entertainment centre in Moncton is "critical" for the future of the city and for the province of New Brunswick.

"Let's state the obvious," Goguen said during an interview with Information Morning Moncton on Tuesday.

"The economic engine of the province of New Brunswick is greater Moncton. We need this project."

Goguen's comments come days after Premier Brian Gallant published an editorial about the future of a downtown centre.

Provincial government stalling project

"They continue throwing up roadblocks for this project while they know that the timing is critical, it's getting to the point that it's either going to cost more money to build the project or it's going to fail," Goguen said.

From CBC

[Taeolas]

The Premier's inexperience is showing again I suspect.

Had he green lit the project soon after taking office, he would have given the Tory MP a bit of ammo, but most of it would probably have been spent by the time the election comes around.

By stalling, he's giving Goguen more ammo of a different type, crippling the province, and killing his own support in the end. For what will probably be a minor political win, (if it can be counted as such) by the time he has to announce the funding.

[MonctonRad]

Excellent point.

If Gallant had immediately approved the project, Goguen would not have gotten that much benefit from the announcement.

By stalling and delaying however, this gives Goguen the chance to appear to be the white knight saviour of Moncton. Brian Gallant's strategy might very well backfire on him, and at the cost of $200M or so of public and private investment. This disastrous strategy could end up costing Gallant dearly in the future, especially if he develops the reputation of being another Shawn Graham.

Gallant might just as well nip this all in the bud and green light the events centre now.........

Of course I think the Premier is far too inexperienced and stubborn to actually do the prudent thing (especially with Dominic whispering in his ear).

[David_99]

Downtown group makes business case for events centre

Another influential business group is speaking up in response to a weekend op-ed piece from Premier Brian Gallant in the Times & Transcript.

On Monday, that generated a response from the Greater Moncton Chamber of Commerce, and on Tuesday, Downtown Moncton Centre-Ville Inc., which represents Moncton’s downtown business improvement area, weighed in too.

Campbell’s study found a multifunctional centre would bring 396,000 people yearly to Moncton’s downtown to frequent stores, restaurants, bars and hotels, which Martin noted,“is equivalent to 19 CFL games spilling out into our downtown yearly.” … “there are currently $70 million dollars in private investments pending the development of the proposed downtown centre.” Pressed on that Tuesday afternoon, DMCI executive director Anne Poirier-Basque said“that’s the minimum.”

By attracting more office, retail and services activity, Campbell predicted the proposed centre would foster more economic activity in the downtown – “an estimated $12-15 Million in spending will be generated each year.”

Sales generated by the construction of the Downtown Centre could total more than $340 million, with $174 million for the province for purchases of goods and services.
Of the proposed $24-million investment, the province recoup $6 million in additional revenues just from its HST share of the construction.
Desjardins found construction of the Downtown Centre would add nearly $65 million to New Brunswick’s gross domestic product and generate the equivalent of 713 full time jobs.

BRENT MAZEROLLE TIMES & TRANSCRIPT

[MonctonRad]

Kinda sounds like the events centre would be a much better investment for the province than a rinky-dink run down shipyard in Bas Caraquet, doesn't it.

What do you think Mr. Premier???

[MonctonRad]

MP Robert Goguen wrote a wonderful op/ed column in the T&T today regarding the events centre.

It's too long to cut and paste here, but here's the link to read it:
http://22864.vws.magma.ca/index.php?&article_id=14642

I particularly liked this little allegory that Goguen created:

Time is running short; the centre project is in peril. Metaphorically, it is the bottom of the ninth inning with two out. The home team, Greater Moncton, has three players on base, the residents of greater Moncton, Moncton City Council, and the federal government. You are at bat. Mr. Premier, please show some leadership; the future of the game (the future of the project) is in your hands. Will you hit a grand slam and fund this project, thereby securing future tax revenues for Greater Moncton and all of New Brunswick? Or will you hit into a double play, refuse to fund the project, thereby killing it and relinquishing job creation opportunities and considerable provincial tax revenues required to fund New Brunswick’s many social programs? Such a double play would be frowned upon by both the citizens of Greater Moncton and New Brunswick.

Mr. Premier, you just got burned!!!!!

I also liked this little quote:

The federal government remains committed to providing funds which will permit the realization of this important project. From where I sit, as Member of Parliament for Moncton-Riverview-Dieppe, I will continue to cheer for the home team, Greater Moncton. I am hopeful to hear similar cheers and commitment for the“home team”from yourself, your Moncton based liberal MLAs and of course federal Liberal candidate. To date no such cheers have been heard from the Liberal team. Perhaps a cheer from Liberal team leader MP Dominic LeBlanc is required?

The more that we hear about this situation, the more it becomes obvious that the true puppet master regarding this debacle is federal MP Dominic LeBlanc. Premier Gallant would appear to be nothing more than his stooge or flunky. The events centre is being held hostage by the politics surrounding the next federal election. If the events centre fails, it will be because of a combination of a weak Premier and a Machiavellian federal MP........

[Taeolas]

The sad thing is, the reports from the Business groups just brings out the "Well if you want it so much why don't YOU fund it?" crowd. Really, I'm not sure how to respond to that.

On the one hand, some investment from the business community wouldn't hurt.

But in the end, it seems to me that projects like this should be community projects; funded by the community (and the governments that represent said community), to insure that they are for the community, and not just for the commercial groups that paid for it.

Some funding is fine. But I don't think we necessarily want the Irving Events Centre (fully bought and paid for by JDIrving) taking up so much space downtown, and then not getting some big Exxon sponsered event due to the Irvings saying No to it.

[NBNYer]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

But in the end, it seems to me that projects like this should be community projects; funded by the community (and the governments that represent said community), to insure that they are for the community, and not just for the commercial groups that paid for it.

Some funding is fine. But I don't think we necessarily want the Irving Events Centre (fully bought and paid for by JDIrving) taking up so much space downtown, and then not getting some big Exxon sponsered event due to the Irvings saying No to it.

Although it's been shown that there is a good business case for the Events Centre, projects like this are definitely not just beneficial to the business community. It's an urban renewal project that also adds to the public realm with plazas, public art and community space. These things don't have an immediate return on investment that can be easily taken into account by business. They add to the overall experience of living in a city and the Events Centre is a step in this direction. For this reason alone, the community has to spearhead such projects. I think NB cities are victims of the overwhelming rural and suburban attitudes that this province has as a whole. Most of the population lives in rural areas and the few cities are split up into 3 regions which themselves are largely suburban and exurban. The population is aging, things move slow and people are unaccustomed to seeing significant change in their communities and way of life. They're reluctant investors and overly concerned with debt. This is where the naysayers are coming from.

Investments and confidence in the local economy with a shift in mentality towards urbanism, public realm, art etc go a long way in retaining young entrepreneurs, medical professionals etc. This is surely a better strategy for long term sustained growth than saving a few millions dollars this year. It's unfortunate.

[David_99]

Stephen Harper, Rob Moore 'on board' with Moncton centre funding

Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency Minister Rob Moore are both on board with a plan to use nearly $23.5 million in infrastructure funds to indirectly fund a portion of the $107-million sports and entertainment complex in Moncton, according to the local Tory MP.

Moncton-Riverview-Dieppe MP Robert Goguen said on Wednesday the provincial government is the last hurdle to overcome before the federal government agrees to find $23.5 million in funds for the downtown sports complex.

When asked whether the prime minister and ACOA minister approved of this indirect funding agreement, Goguen was unequivocal.

"Listen, I speak to both of them regularly and they are on board," he said.

"The test finally is, look, will we have the full $23.5 [million]? The infrastructure programs will fund the projects that the city has submitted and with the approval of the province, it will give us the major part of the funding. Then the trick is to find other sources of funds to come as close as we possibly can to get the $23.5 [million]."

From CBC

[Mattyyy]

It's interesting how this topic was completely silent for months and now it seems to be a hot political topic. I'm happy to finally see a lot of articles in the media. I wonder if any of it will force Brian Gallant to make a decision somewhat faster than he may have planned?

[NBNYer]

Originally Posted by Mattyyy

It's interesting how this topic was completely silent for months and now it seems to be a hot political topic. I'm happy to finally see a lot of articles in the media. I wonder if any of it will force Brian Gallant to make a decision somewhat faster than he may have planned?

Apparently some deadlines regarding the tenders are fast approaching and this seems to be a last minute scramble from various groups to push it through.

[MonctonRad]

Alec Bruce's column from todays T&T:

Condescension, thy name is Brian Gallant. With breathtaking gall, the premier of New Brunswick delivered a message to Moncton last week from the river-soaked banks of Freddy Beach where, apparently, rising flood waters cannot stem the tide of execrable political rhetoric.

In a commentary published by this newspaper, Mr. Gallant intoned, “Much has been said about the Moncton Downtown Centre .. . To create jobs and have strong social programs we must invest our money strategically . . . This principle is an important one that requires us as a government to do our due diligence when making decisions . . . It isn’t responsible to rush into a $107-million project.”Furthermore, the premier noted,“I have personally met with Downtown Moncton Centreville Inc., and a number of our caucus members have spoken and met with mayors and city councillors numerous times to discuss the project. The provincial government’s Jobs Board also met with approximately 15 Greater Moncton business leaders and municipal councillors . . . The decision will not be made based on a marketing and lobbying campaign aimed at putting pressure on us to ‘hurry up’.”

What workmanlike spin. What politics as usual. What utter tripe. To be clear, much has not only been“said about the Moncton Downtown Centre,”much has already been done. For years, successive economic impact studies and public opinion surveys have shown, definitively, that not only would such a facility be inspirational – it would be a generator of economic benefits on orders of magnitude that far exceed its design and construction costs.

How, then, is anyone“rushing into”the project or putting pressure on the Province to“hurry up”after more than a decade of disgraceful, official foot-dragging (albeit by previous Grit and Tory administrations)? At most, Monctonians simply want government types, for once, to evacuate their bureaucratic bowels or get off the thrones they so dearly cherish.

What’s more, if, as Mr. Gallant warrants, he has personally met with leading proponents of the events centre, how, then, do we accept the implication of his argument that he is somehow being pressed into service without sufficient information to make a “responsible”decision on behalf of all taxpayers in New Brunswick? Shall we convene yet another panel to investigate? The premier wants solid information to justify a thumbs up or a thumbs down. And yet, he has it. He must know he has it because one member of his worthy Jobs Board, the freshly minted senior economist of the province, David Campbell, literally wrote the book on Moncton’s mythological downtown events centre.

Specifically, in 2013, Mr. Campbell – an independent economic development consultant at the time – told city council a centre will annually“attract between 317,000 and 396,000 people . .. generating between $12 and $15 million in spending.”In the process, he declared, it will“support retail, food service, accommodation and other services in the downtown,”where it“should also support residential growth.”In fact, the urban core“generates nearly 11.5 times as much property tax revenue, compared to the rest of Moncton, on a per hectare basis.”What’s more,“the cost to service the downtown is much lower compared to many other neighbourhoods and commercial areas around the city.”

Any more questions for the jury? Only one, perhaps. Why does Mr. Gallant conclude his commentary with a partisan attack on local Conservative Member of Parliament Robert Goguen, who’s done nothing to advance or retard the event centre’s cause? Answer: Because that, friends, is what hauteur tends to do in the aromatic springtime of a premier’s ever-shortening life.

[sjuser23]

Question - is the 24 mil from the feds 24 mil of new money? or would they have spent $24 mil on infrastructure programs anyway? Is it a mix? Infrastructure Canada would have likely matched provincial dollars for infrastructure anyway but is the 24 mil other infrastructure on top of what normally they would get or is it really a slight of hand?

[MonctonRad]

Good question.

I don't know the answer for sure, but the implication is that it would be "new" money for worthy infrastructure projects. Another key question is whether or not this "new" money would require matching provincial contributions to kick in. If so, this could explain some provincial retiscence, but I still think the main bottleneck is a political one. The politics makes this a very difficult nut to crack.......

[Sunnybrae]

Can anyone tell me what the net gain is for Moncton (revenue generated annually) with the new events centre? I keep seeing this 12-15 Million number but that's not all new money. Also, what happens to the old coliseum/agrena if the new one gets built? People keep talking to me about these questions and I have no idea.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Sunnybrae

Can anyone tell me what the net gain is for Moncton (revenue generated annually) with the new events centre? I keep seeing this 12-15 Million number but that's not all new money. Also, what happens to the old coliseum/agrena if the new one gets built? People keep talking to me about these questions and I have no idea.

The coliseum would live on as a trade centre (which is where it gets most of it's revenue anyway), as well as a multipurpose indoor sports facility.

As for the revenue generation for the events centre, most of that would come in terms of increased property tax revenue based on the ancillary developments in the surrounding lands and HST obtained from the events held in the centre. I don't personally have access to the forecasts of how much that would be.

The idea is that the events centre itself would be a "loss leader" but would serve as a catalyst for other developments in the neighbourhood that would generate tax revenue. This is not an exotic concept. Pretty much any convention centre in the entire world loses money, but still serves as a vital economic engine for the cities they are located in.