What is it like to come home to Canada?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Maybe in developing countries that’s the case, but I’m not hearing the same optimisin from the French family I live with or my former Dutch professor who moved to Winnipeg a couple of years ago. I don’t think many, if any European countries besides Norway have that feeling.

Correct. But the comment was about the world. Not just the developed part of the world. Certainly, there's other developed countries going through a similar malaise as us. The UK comes to mind.

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Well that depends on what you mean by disparity in quality of life. Because with the new child care and dental plans arriving for low income Canadians for example, there is imo a larger growing disparity between the lower and middle classes of both countries that leans towards Canada’s favour.

The lower class definitely have it better in Canada. I would argue the Middle Class have it worse here. What use is public a healthcare system if you're going to die waiting for treatment (or less trivially suffer substantial degradation in quality of life)? In the US, the majority of the middle class has much better healthcare than most of us. Yes, it costs them more. But they are getting much better care.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Correct. But the comment was about the world. Not just the developed part of the world. Certainly, there's other developed countries going through a similar malaise as us. The UK comes to mind.





The lower class definitely have it better in Canada. I would argue the Middle Class have it worse here. What use is public a healthcare system if you're going to die waiting for treatment (or less trivially suffer substantial degradation in quality of life)? In the US, the majority of the middle class has much better healthcare than most of us. Yes, it costs them more. But they are getting much better care.

And yet year after year, since 1980, the gap in life expectancy continues grows between the US and Canada with their superior healthcare.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nite

And yet year after year, since 1980, the gap in life expectancy continues grows between the US and Canada with their superior healthcare.

A gap largely caused by lower life expectancy of their poor. The Canadian IT or medical professional moving to the US will have very expensive health plans provided by their employer. And their salary (which most Canadians can't even imagine) will provide a decent cushion for unforeseen expenses.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The lower class definitely have it better in Canada. I would argue the Middle Class have it worse here. What use is public a healthcare system if you're going to die waiting for treatment (or less trivially suffer substantial degradation in quality of life)? In the US, the majority of the middle class has much better healthcare than most of us. Yes, it costs them more. But they are getting much better care.

In the fight for employees and talent post-COVID, many US employers have also introduced or beefed up their medical insurance plans, even for rank and file employees. This extends far beyond the turbocharged Tech industry, and often isn't headlined like the surging hourly wages for American McJobs. This is the natural result of the US government not jacking up NPR and immigration levels to depress compensation and wages.

This is happening at the same time that Canada is rationing its own healthcare, and the average middle/upper-middle class family finds its access to healthcare more precarious than ever.

[Truenorth00]

The problem with all these discussions is comparing averages. Nobody who is average moves. The door isn't generally open for the average person to move. It's top talent that moves. I'm pretty sure if somebody like Kool Maudit moved to the US, he wouldn't be relying on the same healthcare as somebody on welfare.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think this is something we Canadians tell ourselves to avoid the uncomfortable truth of a growing disparity. For just about any profession, there's both more opportunity and more compensation in the US. That difference used to not be enough for 95% of our professionals to bother with trying to move to the US. But now we're probably getting to the point where the difference could be large enough to motivate half a graduating class in certain fields. That is not great for us. We'll basically be exporting our kids to the US and replacing them with cheaper immigrants. That's rather bleak for our young people and for the country in general (our quality of life depends on having some high value economics activity).

This brain drain also materially degrades the tax base (as the professionals leaving to the US are the highest salary earners disproportionately paying the highest tax rates), and it just means Canada's fiscal capacity (especially in per capita terms) will continue to shrink, and it'll increasingly become tougher and tougher to fund so many new social entitlement programs. The accelerated brain drain will also continue to kill off entrepreneurship in in Canada, and this country loses out on reaping the tax benefits of these new budding enterprises.

This country has wasted a decade on income redistribution and splitting the pie, without nary a thought on how to sustainably grow the pie.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Maybe in developing countries that’s the case, but I’m not hearing the same optimisin from the French family I live with or my former Dutch professor who moved to Winnipeg a couple of years ago. I don’t think many, if any European countries besides Norway have that feeling.

For some of our Parisien friends, it took them a move to Toronto to realize that their home country of France isn't as bad as they thought it was. Now that they're here, the grass is greener syndrome is gone, and they've come to realize that life in Toronto is actually worse in many aspects. Granted they're mostly tech professionals, so their expectations are higher.

Now they're going to move to Montreal in the summer, hoping that whatever's still intact with their Canadian dream will manifest itself in Quebec. If not, then it's a one way ticket down to the US.

[shreddog]

So last year my wife and I decamped on another expat tour – Belgium this time. Initially it was a 1 year commitment, but we recently changed that to indefinite. Many reasons – mostly due to being in Europe – but also because Canada is less the place we want to be. I’ve done 4 other expat stints (UK, US, Aus, UAE) and previously there was never any doubt about “coming home to Canada”. This time ….. I’m not sure.

While Canada is still a good story, actually living here affirms that it is not the only story and perhaps its allure is waning.

It’s been 10 years since my last expat, and I can honestly say that Canada today is less appealing than 10 years ago. My wife has been in Canada the past 2 weeks for work and every day she reiterates how much she wants to come “home” – but home ain’t Vancouver!

Yes Belgium/Europe has issues, but it honestly doesn’t feel like Canada in 2024. Costs of living are less (food and accommodations), public infrastructure is way better, as is health care. And while I am not in the growth phase of my career (guru phase now), those that I work with who are are actually filled with optimism. And when I ask them about options in NA, very few talk about it as a goal – even Silicon Valley. While Canada and the US are definitely different, you’d be surprised about how prominent the “US gun culture” plays into people’s mental state here … and way too many people equate Canada to the US. ☹

Anyway, Canada is great and if you choose to live there – embrace it and try to make it better. Just don’ fall into the trap of thinking it’s the be all end all. It’s nice … but just nice … though I don’t know for how much longer.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

A gap largely caused by lower life expectancy of their poor. The Canadian IT or medical professional moving to the US will have very expensive health plans provided by their employer. And their salary (which most Canadians can't even imagine) will provide a decent cushion for unforeseen expenses.

The US didn't have poor people before 1980 then? or is the US getting poorer?

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The problem with all these discussions is comparing averages. Nobody who is average moves. The door isn't generally open for the average person to move. It's top talent that moves. I'm pretty sure if somebody like Kool Maudit moved to the US, he wouldn't be relying on the same healthcare as somebody on welfare.

So you are arguing that Americans have better healthcare than Canadians, except if they are the average American.
To me the country with the better healthcare is the one where the average person has better healthcare.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The problem with all these discussions is comparing averages. Nobody who is average moves. The door isn't generally open for the average person to move. It's top talent that moves. I'm pretty sure if somebody like Kool Maudit moved to the US, he wouldn't be relying on the same healthcare as somebody on welfare.

American publication Newsweek has shown the past few years that some of the best hospitals in the entire world are in Toronto, whether it's Toronto General, Sick Kids Hospital, or Princess Margaret Cancer Centre.
urbandreamer has told the forum that he's able to find specialists he needs for his ailments.

1. Mayo Clinic
2. Cleveland Clinic
3. Toronto General - University Health Network
4. Johns Hopkins Hospital
5. Massachusetts General Hospital

Not a NYC hospital, or LA hospital or Chicago hospital, or even the gigantic Texas Medical Center (employs ~110,000) in Houston.
Toronto is number 3!
If you filter Canada, you'll see Toronto has 4 hospitals in the top 50.
https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/wo...hospitals-2024

Here's the specialized hospitals ranking
Sick Kids Hospital is ranked #2 children's hospital in the world. Princess Margaret #13 for cancer treatment.
https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/wo...hospitals-2024

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think this is something we Canadians tell ourselves to avoid the uncomfortable truth of a growing disparity. For just about any profession, there's both more opportunity and more compensation in the US. That difference used to not be enough for 95% of our professionals to bother with trying to move to the US. But now we're probably getting to the point where the difference could be large enough to motivate half a graduating class in certain fields. That is not great for us. We'll basically be exporting our kids to the US and replacing them with cheaper immigrants. That's rather bleak for our young people and for the country in general (our quality of life depends on having some high value economics activity).

And something to keep in mind is that 10% of our population is 1.2% of theirs. The US could take just about every talented person in this country and not break a sweat integrating them. We'll be left with multi-year long waits for medical specialists and a Starbucks economy as talent flees.

Growing disparity indeed. Canada’s per capita GDP is back to 2017 levels - and falling - while the US's continues to rise:




Canadian GDP per capita purchasing power parity relative to the US is also at it's lowest point in at least a generation:



https://betterdwelling.com/canadian-...g-lost-decade/

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Nite

So the US didn't have poor people before 1980? or is the US getting poorer?

The problem with a "only US focus" re. healthcare, is that most Canadians's don't realize just how shitty our system is. It seems like Canada has gone out of it's way to have the worst of every possible system every where. Yes it's "free", but don't ever try to access it! Most places elsewhere in world that have public healthcare also have a "private" addon option. And even when they don't, it's still more accesible that anything I've seen in Canada in over a decade.

Anyway, back to your "Canada is the best" mantra ...

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Wigs

American publication Newsweek has shown the past few years that some of the best hospitals in the entire world are in Toronto, whether it's Toronto General, Sick Kids Hospital, or Princess Margaret Cancer Centre.
...

Here's the specialized hospitals ranking
Sick Kids Hospital is ranked #2 children's hospital in the world. Princess Margaret #13 for cancer treatment.
https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/wo...hospitals-2024

Not sure what's it's like now, but in 2010 when my step dad was diagnosed with throat cancer he was sent for his diagnosis to St. Margarets. They gave him a "schedule" for followup appointments and start of treatment. Due to the delays I ended up "moving" his care to Calgary and Foothills was able to do his full set of treatment - including surgery and follow on treatment before St. Margarets could even schedule his follow up session.

Again, that was almost 15 years ago, but I find it hard to believe that wait times have dropped that much.

So it may be one of the best of the world, but does that matter if you can't even get treatment in timely manner?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by shreddog

The problem with a "only US focus" re. healthcare, is that most Canadians's don't realize just how shitty our system is. It seems like Canada has gone out of it's way to have the worst of every possible system every where. Yes it's "free", but don't ever try to access it! Most places elsewhere in world that have public healthcare also have a "private" addon option. And even when they don't, it's still more accesible that anything I've seen in Canada in over a decade.

You can make some good points but the hyperbole doesn't help.

Canada has always had an overcapacity system relying on triage to treat the most urgent cases first.

Clearly things have gone too far lately and we need to invest. The sky is not falling though.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You can make some good points but the hyperbole doesn't help.

Canada has always had an overcapacity system relying on triage to treat the most urgent cases first.

Clearly things have gone too far lately and we need to invest. The sky is not falling though.

Our current issues are manufactured by governments and fixable.

As my friend that's a relatively new nurse in Ontario states "Me and my colleagues talk about how it sure seems like the Ford government is intentionally starving the healthcare system in Ontario to open the door for more privatization"

Make the necessary reinvestments in all provinces and territories.

I don't want to be like America

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub...rspective-2022

[Nite]

Originally Posted by shreddog

The problem with a "only US focus" re. healthcare, is that most Canadians's don't realize just how shitty our system is. It seems like Canada has gone out of it's way to have the worst of every possible system every where. Yes it's "free", but don't ever try to access it! Most places elsewhere in world that have public healthcare also have a "private" addon option. And even when they don't, it's still more accesible that anything I've seen in Canada in over a decade.

Anyway, back to your "Canada is the best" mantra ...

Ok so lets look at what the OECD has to say in its most recent better life index for health


https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/health/

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nite

The US didn't have poor people before 1980 then? or is the US getting poorer?

Yes. And they've suffered the bulk of decline in quality of life since then. Where do you think the term "rust belt" came from?

Originally Posted by Nite

So you are arguing that Americans have better healthcare than Canadians, except if they are the average American.
To me the country with the better healthcare is the one where the average person has better healthcare.

"Average" is a rather meaningless term in this comparison. The American average is brought down substantially by the 20% of Americans who are at the bottom and lack real access to healthcare. The rest do tend to have better healthcare and shorter wait times than us.

Also, quality of life, for most people, is more than just life expectancy and healthcare. The average person expects more than just staying alive in their life. And this is all the more so true of the type of people who move. Ask yourself why, if Canada is so much better, why don't we get more Americans moving to Canada than Canadians moving there? People on both sides of the border are voting with their feet every single day.

Originally Posted by Wigs

American publication Newsweek has shown the past few years that some of the best hospitals in the entire world are in Toronto, whether it's Toronto General, Sick Kids Hospital, or Princess Margaret Cancer Centre.
urbandreamer has told the forum that he's able to find specialists he needs for his ailments.

1. Mayo Clinic
2. Cleveland Clinic
3. Toronto General - University Health Network
4. Johns Hopkins Hospital
5. Massachusetts General Hospital

Not a NYC hospital, or LA hospital or Chicago hospital, or even the gigantic Texas Medical Center (employs ~110,000) in Houston.
Toronto is number 3!
If you filter Canada, you'll see Toronto has 4 hospitals in the top 50.
https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/wo...hospitals-2024

Here's the specialized hospitals ranking
Sick Kids Hospital is ranked #2 children's hospital in the world. Princess Margaret #13 for cancer treatment.
https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/wo...hospitals-2024

I should hope that a G7 country has some world renowned hospitals. The question to ask is not whether we have a few. It's whether we have enough top tier institutions proportional to the size of our population and economy.

Also, having top tier hospitals isn't what determines quality of care for the average person. We don't send every patient to Princess Margaret. And they don't send every patient to the Mayo Clinic. Start looking at things like wait times for diagnostic or treatment and you'll see that our system isn't doing that great.

[Wigs]

Here's the OECD education rankings for 2022

Canada still ranks high despite Covid lockdowns screwing up the education of basically every child in Canada.

I'd rather have my kids educated in Ireland, Finland or Poland, than UK, US, Germany or even Sweden






https://factsmaps.com/pisa-2022-worl...oogle_vignette

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

. Start looking at things like wait times for diagnostic or treatment and you'll see that our system isn't doing that great.

Issues that are largely fixable with proper reinvestment. Stop starving provincial healthcare systems.