The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[ssiguy]

This whole discussion started due to my disgust with the newest Wynne proposal of funding 100% of Hamilton's LRT {right after they decided to make transit even less of a priority by taking away a bus lane} and yet KW/Ott/LDN don't receive similar treatment.
This is the same as Toronto's Eglinton line which Toronto isn't paying a nickel for.

Can you imagine what Torontonians would do if Wynne had proposed the opposite?

I find it rather amusing and offensive how Torontonians bitched about how Toronto got screwed {which it did} by Harris and how unfair his hostility to Toronto was {which it was}. Now that Toronto/Hamilton are the favored children in the Wynne policy agendas somehow Torontonians think treating some Ontarians better than others is all of a sudden morally acceptable because they are now the beneficiaries.

You either treat all people in a province fairly or you don't, there is no middle ground and Wynne has decided that the GTHA not have to pay their fair share while the rest of the province does.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by 333609543

The Detroit-Windsor CMA does not exist. It is only the Windsor CMA.

That's right, but the region is the greater Detroit/Windsor area, which encompasses two countries and two metropolitan areas.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

SouthWestario (capital London)

Nah, call it Westeros, and rename London to King's Landing.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This whole discussion started due to my disgust with the newest Wynne proposal of funding 100% of Hamilton's LRT {right after they decided to make transit even less of a priority by taking away a bus lane} and yet KW/Ott/LDN don't receive similar treatment.
This is the same as Toronto's Eglinton line which Toronto isn't paying a nickel for.

Can you imagine what Torontonians would do if Wynne had proposed the opposite?

I find it rather amusing and offensive how Torontonians bitched about how Toronto got screwed {which it did} by Harris and how unfair his hostility to Toronto was {which it was}. Now that Toronto/Hamilton are the favored children in the Wynne policy agendas somehow Torontonians think treating some Ontarians better than others is all of a sudden morally acceptable because they are now the beneficiaries.

You either treat all people in a province fairly or you don't, there is no middle ground and Wynne has decided that the GTHA not have to pay their fair share while the rest of the province does.

Harris screwed almost everyone. Torontonians, like just about anyone else, only took interest in what directly affects them. Now, we have Wynne. Maybe she sees the economic advantages of throwing a little extra towards the GTA. Maybe she's just biased. Who cares. Little out there is fair. Business would die if every employee/vendor/client was treated fairly. I find you being amused and offended by typical human nature to be very innocent.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This whole discussion started due to my disgust with the newest Wynne proposal of funding 100% of Hamilton's LRT {right after they decided to make transit even less of a priority by taking away a bus lane} and yet KW/Ott/LDN don't receive similar treatment.
This is the same as Toronto's Eglinton line which Toronto isn't paying a nickel for.

Can you imagine what Torontonians would do if Wynne had proposed the opposite?

I find it rather amusing and offensive how Torontonians bitched about how Toronto got screwed {which it did} by Harris and how unfair his hostility to Toronto was {which it was}. Now that Toronto/Hamilton are the favored children in the Wynne policy agendas somehow Torontonians think treating some Ontarians better than others is all of a sudden morally acceptable because they are now the beneficiaries.

You either treat all people in a province fairly or you don't, there is no middle ground and Wynne has decided that the GTHA not have to pay their fair share while the rest of the province does.

Hence the $14 billion in transportation funding for investments outside of the GTHA. London or KW or any other city could certainly make a case they have projects that would be good candidates for that pool of money.

[SteelTown]

^ Isn't London slated to get high speed rail? Believe the province has even started the Environmental Assessment. High speed isn't exactly chump change.

[Aylmer]

High speed rail? Feh! In Europe, every Tom, Dick and Harry town has HSR! (Of course, every Tom, Dick and Harry town also has LRT...)

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

High speed rail? Feh! In Europe, every Tom, Dick and Harry town has HSR! (Of course, every Tom, Dick and Harry town also has LRT...)

Japans fourth largest metro doesn't have HSR.

The only city with HSR in North America these days is Hamilton, and that's the wrong type of HSR.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This whole discussion started due to my disgust with the newest Wynne proposal of funding 100% of Hamilton's LRT {right after they decided to make transit even less of a priority by taking away a bus lane} and yet KW/Ott/LDN don't receive similar treatment.
This is the same as Toronto's Eglinton line which Toronto isn't paying a nickel for.

Can you imagine what Torontonians would do if Wynne had proposed the opposite?

I find it rather amusing and offensive how Torontonians bitched about how Toronto got screwed {which it did} by Harris and how unfair his hostility to Toronto was {which it was}. Now that Toronto/Hamilton are the favored children in the Wynne policy agendas somehow Torontonians think treating some Ontarians better than others is all of a sudden morally acceptable because they are now the beneficiaries.

You either treat all people in a province fairly or you don't, there is no middle ground and Wynne has decided that the GTHA not have to pay their fair share while the rest of the province does.

Keep in mind that Wynne's massive transportation infrastructure fund--$29B from 2014 to 2023--has an allocation rule that $15B must be spent in the GTHA, $13.9B elsewhere, which is a fair per capita allocation.

Because many smaller cities don't need that much transit money, the $13.9B fund can be spent on road projects, too, but the primary focus of it remains transit.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This whole discussion started due to my disgust with the newest Wynne proposal of funding 100% of Hamilton's LRT {right after they decided to make transit even less of a priority by taking away a bus lane} and yet KW/Ott/LDN don't receive similar treatment.
This is the same as Toronto's Eglinton line which Toronto isn't paying a nickel for.

Can you imagine what Torontonians would do if Wynne had proposed the opposite?

I find it rather amusing and offensive how Torontonians bitched about how Toronto got screwed {which it did} by Harris and how unfair his hostility to Toronto was {which it was}. Now that Toronto/Hamilton are the favored children in the Wynne policy agendas somehow Torontonians think treating some Ontarians better than others is all of a sudden morally acceptable because they are now the beneficiaries.

You either treat all people in a province fairly or you don't, there is no middle ground and Wynne has decided that the GTHA not have to pay their fair share while the rest of the province does.

It could be worse. Tim Hudak said that his government would not fund phase 2 of Ottawa's LRT, and Ottawa mayor Jim Watson was very vocal in his opposition to his attitude that he described as ignoring cities outside the GTA. We all know how badly the PCs performed in Ottawa in the last election.

I think what bothers people outside the GTHA is the dismissive attitude some people in Toronto have towards the rest of Ontario. Many times I've seen comments on CBC.ca where Toronto posters refer to the rest of the province as rural. Because apparently Ottawa is a rural community.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I think what bothers people outside the GTHA is the dismissive attitude some people in Toronto have towards the rest of Ontario. Many times I've seen comments on CBC.ca where Toronto posters refer to the rest of the province as rural. Because apparently Ottawa is a rural community.

Of course it's rural! It's got that big huge farm in the middle of it and everything.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Keep in mind that Wynne's massive transportation infrastructure fund--$29B from 2014 to 2023--has an allocation rule that $15B must be spent in the GTHA, $13.9B elsewhere, which is a fair per capita allocation.

Because many smaller cities don't need that much transit money, the $13.9B fund can be spent on road projects, too, but the primary focus of it remains transit.

A significant portion of that $14 billion will likely go to roads. A couple billion to highway 17 twinning, probably some widenings of the 401, and a billion to her stated small infrastructure find to help local municipalities fund big budget projects like new bridges for local roads. That new bridge in Kingston, rail crossing removals (london really needs some of this), a rumoured Wolfe Island bridge, etc. MTO has a bunch of roads that are all coming up for widening all at once too that will need some money in the next 10 years. (400, 401, 11 south of Orillia, QEW, etc.)

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

A significant portion of that $14 billion will likely go to roads. A couple billion to highway 17 twinning, probably some widenings of the 401, and a billion to her stated small infrastructure find to help local municipalities fund big budget projects like new bridges for local roads. That new bridge in Kingston, rail crossing removals (london really needs some of this), a rumoured Wolfe Island bridge, etc. MTO has a bunch of roads that are all coming up for widening all at once too that will need some money in the next 10 years. (400, 401, 11 south of Orillia, QEW, etc.)

Wouldn't the MTO's normal capital budget be able to cover this? Didn't think the $14B fund would be used for these kinds of 'conventional' highway widenings.

[Innsertnamehere]

to a certain extent, yes, but its more than normal that comes up. Those 3 are all large, long length widenings that require extensive upgrading to perform. Maybe 1 or 2 of them will be able to be done with the MTO budget, but not all of them. There are tons of other projects MTO has on top of those too that are going to be shifting to construction in the coming years .

A list of major, unfunded capital projects MTO is looking at that are not really long range projects and will be needed sooner rather than later:

- 401 widening Milton - Kitchener
- 401 widening Kingston - Toronto
- 400 widening Toronto - Barrie
- 11 widening / replacement (The RIRO form of the current highway will be replaced with a 6 lane 400 series standard freeway on a new alignment) from Barrie to Orillia
- 401 widening Durham
- 6 upgrades to the Hanlon Expressway
- 6 Morriston Bypass
- 6 Highway 5 interchange
- 6N twinning to Hamilton airport
- 6N extension to Caledonia
- 403 widening Hamilton
- 403 HOVs Mississauga
- 12 widening beaverton
- 417 extension to at least Renfrew, political pressure will likely push it much further
- 7/8 widening stratford
- Thunder Bay expressway upgrade
- 11/17 widening west of TB
- various interchange reconstructions and modernizations, including new interchanges to replace at grade intersections on highway 11

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

to a certain extent, yes, but its more than normal that comes up. Those 3 are all large, long length widenings that require extensive upgrading to perform. Maybe 1 or 2 of them will be able to be done with the MTO budget, but not all of them. There are tons of other projects MTO has on top of those too that are going to be shifting to construction in the coming years .

A list of major, unfunded capital projects MTO is looking at that are not really long range projects and will be needed sooner rather than later:

- 401 widening Milton - Kitchener
- 401 widening Kingston - Toronto
- 400 widening Toronto - Barrie
- 11 widening / replacement (The RIRO form of the current highway will be replaced with a 6 lane 400 series standard freeway on a new alignment) from Barrie to Orillia
- 401 widening Durham
- 6 upgrades to the Hanlon Expressway
- 6 Morriston Bypass
- 6 Highway 5 interchange
- 6N twinning to Hamilton airport
- 6N extension to Caledonia
- 403 widening Hamilton
- 403 HOVs Mississauga
- 12 widening beaverton
- 417 extension to at least Renfrew, political pressure will likely push it much further
- 7/8 widening stratford
- Thunder Bay expressway upgrade
- 11/17 widening west of TB
- various interchange reconstructions and modernizations, including new interchanges to replace at grade intersections on highway 11

This list does not scream that Ontario wants to promote non-auto travel.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

This list does not scream that Ontario wants to promote non-auto travel.

Roads are useful for trucks, buses, emergency vehicles, etc. Even without any cars and everyone using buses there'd probably still be plenty of new roads needed due to shifting populations. Going around Thunder Bay and it seems like a good quarter of the highway traffic is transport trucks (and the rail lines + shipping lanes aren't exactly neglected).

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Keep in mind that Wynne's massive transportation infrastructure fund--$29B from 2014 to 2023--has an allocation rule that $15B must be spent in the GTHA, $13.9B elsewhere, which is a fair per capita allocation.

Because many smaller cities don't need that much transit money, the $13.9B fund can be spent on road projects, too, but the primary focus of it remains transit.

It does seem like a faire per-capita allocation. What is patently unfair is that the people outside GTHA have to add at least a third of their own money on top of Queen's Park or they don't get a cent while in GTHA all they have to do is fill in the forms and wait for the cheque.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

It does seem like a faire per-capita allocation. What is patently unfair is that the people outside GTHA have to add at least a third of their own money on top of Queen's Park or they don't get a cent while in GTHA all they have to do is fill in the forms and wait for the cheque.

Not to mention that property taxes in the City of Toronto are a bargain compared to many other cities, from my understanding (including some GTA municipalities).

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Roads are useful for trucks, buses, emergency vehicles, etc. Even without any cars and everyone using buses there'd probably still be plenty of new roads needed due to shifting populations. Going around Thunder Bay and it seems like a good quarter of the highway traffic is transport trucks (and the rail lines + shipping lanes aren't exactly neglected).

Yes, but these are almost all widening of roads which already exist. Worse yet, they're often justified by congestion or congestion forecasts. I fear the MTO hasn't been made aware of the memo concerning the fact that we're no longer in the 60's.

In 50 years, we will look back at the tens and hundreds of billions we spent on road widening and highway construction as a much more expensive and damaging version of bloodletting or witchdoctery made worse by all the evidence we have that demonstrates again and again it DOES NOT EVER WORK.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Not to mention that property taxes in the City of Toronto are a bargain compared to many other cities, from my understanding (including some GTA municipalities).

property values are much higher however, so the typical tax bill is roughly the same.

Also, Toronto has many user fees that would be considered absurd for many municipalities in Ontario.


Most of the projects listed are either long distance projects or HOV additions, which are still generally considered fine under modern planning doctrine. Its commuter highway widenings that you have to be wary of, induced demand doesn't factor in nearly as much on these large distance highways.