Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Actually no. I say this as someone of Indian heritage. Brampton is actually rather sub-ethnically specific. It's so Punjabi dominated, other Indian immigrants try and avoid it. And anybody coming from the larger cities in India actually tend to be more comfortable in downtown Toronto than Brampton.

I know to white guys all Indians look the same. But the difference between a South Indian Tamil and a North Indian Punjabi is as comparable to the difference between a Swede and an Italian. Languages, food and even religious practices are different.

If Canada’s second-biggest province was a giant Brampton, it would indeed be totally true that this “Canadian Province of New Punjab” is a distinct society within Canada; in other words, his point isn’t at all a good one. Any neighborhood can be special; if the special-ness is province-wide then that’s more noteworthy at the federal level.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah that is interesting. The parts of Canada I grew up in tended to have more Hindus than Sikhs and even more Indian Muslims so that's the impression of India I got.

Sure. But even a lot of Hindus in Canada are ethnically Punjabi. This is what I mean. The Canadian understanding of "Indian" culture is basically Punjabi culture. To give you an understanding of how different this is. Naan and Butter Chicken is about as common in my parent's hometown in Southern India as it is in Ottawa. To them, it's sort of a foreign food. The same way that an Italian might view Swedish meatballs. To South Indians the food you see in a typical Indian restaurant in Canada, is what we think of as wedding food. South Indians tend to only eat that stuff at a North Indian wedding. They don't eat at home. Saying Indians are taking over Brampton is akin to saying Europeans dominate Corso Italia. Yet, finding Borscht is probably going to be difficult in the Little Italies of North America.

[1overcosc]

I've always wondered why Canada's South Asian population is so disproportionately Punjabi. Is there some sort of historical tie between Canada and Punjab that I don't know about?

[lio45]

Diaspora-concentration is pretty much always self-reinforcing (for obvious reasons), but you’re right that a small initial spark is required (after that, the snowball effect is logical). I suppose that small initial spark can even be random. After it’s ignited, it goes both ways (“Q: why do new Quebecois snowbirds all choose to concentrate in that one specific corner of South FL?” “A: because that’s where all the Quebecois are concentrating”)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I've always wondered why Canada's South Asian population is so disproportionately Punjabi. Is there some sort of historical tie between Canada and Punjab that I don't know about?

Conflict in their homelands, both with the British Raj and Indian authorities prompted outmigration as some sought refuge elsewhere. Since the Punjab region (now divided between two countries and several states/provinces) is an agrarian region (the name means "Five Rivers"), the refugees from there sought out agricultural regions to migrate to. And Canada has lots of those. Once the initial communities were established here, more followed. Once Canada established the point system, the mix began to shift. South Indians tend to be more educated and more fluent in English (and in one exceptional town French). This has sort of flipped back with the recent student immigration wave that is more North Indian (though not specifically Punjabi) dominated.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

If Canada’s second-biggest province was a giant Brampton, it would indeed be totally true that this “Canadian Province of New Punjab” is a distinct society within Canada; in other words, his point isn’t at all a good one. Any neighborhood can be special; if the special-ness is province-wide then that’s more noteworthy at the federal level.

It'll still be way easier for Jim from Red Deer to get hired at Canadian Tire or eavesdrop on the police radio scanner in Brampton than in Laval.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Once the initial communities were established here, more followed. Once Canada established the point system, the mix began to shift. South Indians tend to be more educated and more fluent in English (and in one exceptional town French). This has sort of flipped back with the recent student immigration wave that is more North Indian (though not specifically Punjabi) dominated.

That’s quite the statement to make. I think you’re mixing up Punjab/Delhi (where Punjabis are also the largest ethnic group) with the rest of North India that tends to be less educated/fluent in English.

Besides Kerala which is the gold standard for India, Punjab’s literacy rate is a little bit below TN and higher than Karnataka, Telangana, and much higher than AP. In terms of speaking English, no state in India speaks at a higher rate than Punjab. I could visit Punjabi and get by purely on English unless I go back to the pind. Even then a lot of the youth will be quite fluent in English.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

As long as there is no safety or obscenity issue, I could care less what people wear. It is only garments, fer fux sakes.

Typical Anglo-Saxon comment. What you fail to see, however, is the social pressure in their communities to wear the veil. In many neighborhoods of suburban France now, women and teenagers who do not wear the veil (usually the Black robe, not some small colored headcover) are called "whores" by young males in the neighborhood, and harassed on a daily basis. Many cave in. So they put the veil/robe on to be left in peace, and remove it when they arrive in central Paris for shopping or visiting, before putting it on again when they return to their suburb.

Also, what you fail to see is that it's not some organic, spontaneous thing, but it is a movement organized and guided by Islamist groups who have a project to take over the entire world. Imposing the veil on women is part of that global agenda, and it's frankly sinister. Liberal Muslim women are the first who complain about it, seeing their freedom daily curtailed, with no support from naive people like you who see no problem with the veil.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The Canadian understanding of "Indian" culture is basically Punjabi culture.

Just as the Canadian (and most the West) understanding of "Chinese" culture is basically coastal Guangdong, Fujian, Zhejiang (although lately it has started to change in Paris, with way more people from Northern China than used to be the case before).

Regarding Indians, in France it's mostly Tamil people, for historical reasons (French India), and also because France has opened its doors to Christian Sri Lankan refugees, who are Tamil and not Singhalese.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

(“Q: why do new Quebecois snowbirds all choose to concentrate in that one specific corner of South FL?”)

The answer is here.

• Video Link

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

That’s quite the statement to make. I think you’re mixing up Punjab/Delhi (where Punjabis are also the largest ethnic group) with the rest of North India that tends to be less educated/fluent in English.

Besides Kerala which is the gold standard for India, Punjab’s literacy rate is a little bit below TN and higher than Karnataka, Telangana, and much higher than AP. In terms of speaking English, no state in India speaks at a higher rate than Punjab. I could visit Punjabi and get by purely on English unless I go back to the pind. Even then a lot of the youth will be quite fluent in English.

I don't want to derail the thread too much. All I'll say is that literacy rates aren't relevant to working in English or having higher education. It's no accident that India's tech hub emerged in Banglore, a former British garrison town, in a region that tended to use English for administration because Hindi was seen as almost as foreign. Education levels and English as a first language is also closely correlated with religion. And there's more of those English speaking Christians in the South. Delhi and surrounding areas speaking more English is a much newer phenomenon driven by recent urbanization and the tech boom. This would not have been the case say 25 years ago.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

n many neighborhoods of suburban France now,

Canada is not suburban France. Let alone Gatineau. The likelihood of the same social pressures here are rather low.

And France is well France. Complete with the parochial attitude towards immigrants. I've seen the banlieues of Paris. They are great examples of what not to do. Sadly, I know you'll take that to mean the integration and not the marginalization of people who live there.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Also, what you fail to see is that it's not some organic, spontaneous thing, but it is a movement organized and guided by Islamist groups who have a project to take over the entire world. Imposing the veil on women is part of that global agenda, and it's frankly sinister. Liberal Muslim women are the first who complain about it, seeing their freedom daily curtailed, with no support from naive people like you who see no problem with the veil.

Gotta love the racist global conspiracy theory to top it all off.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

I could visit Punjabi and get by purely on English unless I go back to the pind. Even then a lot of the youth will be quite fluent in English.

My own observation is English seems less and less prevalent in public life in India. It's striking how most national politicians speak Hindi today. Gone are the days when Nehru addressed the nation in English. Modi speaks almost only Hindi, and I find it fascinating how people from all across India interact with him in Hindi on Twitter, even when they come from non-Hindi-speaking areas.

I was thinking maybe English was just a parenthesis in Indian history. With 1.5 billion people, colonization now being more than 70 years ago, old millennial trends are just reasserting themselves, and the British-colonial-followed-by-English-legacy was just a parenthesis in a much longer history.

Besides, when Indians speak English, it's less and less real English, and more a sort of Indian language sometimes hard to follow, with lots of antiquated words not used in the UK or US anymore. I suppose the gap will only grow in the future, with probably lots of Hindi words entering that Indian English that Anglophones from the rest of the world will not understand.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Canada is not suburban France. Let alone Gatineau. The likelihood of the same social pressures here are rather low.

I would be surprised if the same sorts of social pressures don't appear in neighborhoods with large Muslim minorities.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And France is well France. Complete with the parochial attitude towards immigrants.

Yeah yeah, we know, and Québec is also very parochial. Only the Anglo-Saxons are broad-minded and open to the world.

France had Black and Muslim MPs long before Canada (or even the UK) had one. And France elected a Jewish prime minister in 1936 at a time of virulent antisemitism in the world, when Canada refused the entry to many Jewish exiles from Germany. Parochial indeed.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Gotta love the racist global conspiracy theory to top it all off.

Religion is not a race. If you can't see that, then the discussion is pointless. Open a dictionary.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

My own observation is English seems less and less prevalent in public life in India. It's striking how most national politicians speak Hindi today. Gone are the days when Nehru addressed the nation in English. Modi speaks almost only Hindi, and I find it fascinating how people from all across India interact with him in Hindi on Twitter, even when they come from non-Hindi-speaking areas.

I was thinking maybe English was just a parenthesis in Indian history. With 1.5 billion people, colonization now being more than 70 years ago, old millennial trends are just reasserting themselves, and the British-colonial-followed-by-English-legacy was just a parenthesis in a much longer history.

Besides, when Indians speak English, it's less and less real English, and more a sort of Indian language sometimes hard to follow, with lots of antiquated words not used in the UK or US anymore. I suppose the gap will only grow in the future, with probably lots of Hindi words entering that Indian English that Anglophones from the rest of the world will not understand.

This is a bizarre observation. Yes, politicians speak Hindi more. And that is particularly true of right wing politicians in India who love to paint English as a foreign language. It's somewhere between communicating with voters and pandering. The vast majority of those politicians do speak English though. The idea that English is fading in India would be laughable to Indians. On the contrary, English is more popular than ever. Parents who can afford it, almost always educate their kids in English over there. The top colleges and universities all teach in English. They see English as economic opportunity. All the fervour to wipe out English in India ended with the tech and call centre boom, underpinned by English speakers.

As for the Hinglish that you speak off? It's always been there. You're just more aware of it now, thanks to the internet.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Religion is not a race. If you can't see that, then the discussion is pointless. Open a dictionary.

I'm well aware. I'm using racist here as a catch-all for the general bigotry towards those of Middle Eastern decent who happen to wear a head scarf. I'm going to guess you aren't nearly as attentive to an Eastern Orthodox woman who happens to wear a different looking scarf with the same function.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I would be surprised if the same sorts of social pressures don't appear in neighborhoods with large Muslim minorities.

If you find a neighborhood in Gatineau with a "large Muslim minority" let me know. I'm down for some good food.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah yeah, we know, and Québec is also very parochial. Only the Anglo-Saxons are broad-minded and open to the world.

France had Black and Muslim MPs long before Canada (or even the UK) had one. And France elected a Jewish prime minister in 1936 at a time of virulent antisemitism in the world, when Canada refused the entry to many Jewish exiles from Germany. Parochial indeed.

France. Famously tolerant to Alfred Dreyfus and to Jews under the Vichy Regime.

At least with Quebec, they are so famously hostile to religion, I actually do kinda believe it's not code for picking on brown people. With France, one visit to a banlieue makes it hard to buy that argument.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm going to guess you aren't nearly as attentive to an Eastern Orthodox woman who happens to wear a different looking scarf with the same function.

Typical strawman! There are virtually no Eastern Orthodox women wearing a scarf in our streets. And if there were tens of thousands of them, with entire neighborhoods where Orthodox women would be harassed to wear a scarf, school teachers and directors facing a daily guerilla by Orthodox parents to have their daughters wear the scarf in school, Orthodox countries ruled by theocracies arresting and killing women for removing their scarf, other Orthodox countries where women would be thrown acid on their face if they don't wear the scarf, numerous Orthodox terror attacks on our cities, school teachers being beheaded outside their schools by Orthodox extremist asylum-seekers, etc, then yes, I'm sure the French would have a BIG issue with the Orthodox scarf, and Orthodox Christianism more generally, Mr strawman.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If you find a neighborhood in Gatineau with a "large Muslim minority" let me know. I'm down for some good food.

I was thinking of Montréal, not Gatineau. But if numbers go up, there's no reason it won't happen in Gatineau either someday.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

France. Famously tolerant to Alfred Dreyfus and to Jews under the Vichy Regime.

As Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism, who lived in Paris at the time of the Dreyfus Affair, astutely observed: "There couldn't be a Dreyfus Affair in the US or the UK, because no Jew can become an officer in the army over there."

There for you!

PS: For your information, Dreyfus was rehabilitated in 1906, reintegrated into the army, and served as an officer in the French army during WW1. So his story is actually a symbol of the victory of justice over intolerant forces.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is a bizarre observation. Yes, politicians speak Hindi more. And that is particularly true of right wing politicians in India who love to paint English as a foreign language. It's somewhere between communicating with voters and pandering. The vast majority of those politicians do speak English though. The idea that English is fading in India would be laughable to Indians. On the contrary, English is more popular than ever. Parents who can afford it, almost always educate their kids in English over there. The top colleges and universities all teach in English. They see English as economic opportunity. All the fervour to wipe out English in India ended with the tech and call centre boom, underpinned by English speakers.

As for the Hinglish that you speak off? It's always been there. You're just more aware of it now, thanks to the internet.

If you haven’t already noticed, New Brisavoine (or Yuri as I like to call him) is virulently anti-anglophone, and this drives his interest as an outsider from France (or possibly Russia if he indeed a troll as I suspect) in Quebec separatism. Separation would be a wonderful way to stick it to the anglos that he hates so much......