Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While the majority are still Liberal voters, I'd argue that Québec solidaire has actually become the second party of Montreal anglos. (Though anglos are not the majority of QS members either - but they make up a disproportionate chunk I'd say.)

I actually know an anglophone person quite involved with QS. They are not originally from Quebec but rather from the ROC. I have no idea why they moved to Quebec but I do know for such left-of-the-left people QS is appealling because it's probably the most purely leftist party in USA-Canada that has a decent chance of electoral success. Quebec independence is also potentially part of the appeal of QS in that a smaller country that has a strong collective sense of self and a history of being the trodden-upon little guy is at least on the surface the best option for leftist progressive policies to dominate. Especially given Quebec's history of electing at a minimum centre-left governments arguably for 50+ years.

I do think that in the ranks of Québec solidaire (especially among non-francophones) the belief in the latter statement has begun to diminish a lot, and even that a mistrust of Quebec's francophone majority (more typical of the Liberals, ironically!) and its power has begun to set in, which explains why way fewer of them now think independence would lead to socialist nirvana on the St. Lawrence.

One of the examples of the "problem" they'd have with Quebec is that it's way more resistant to "woke" stuff than elsewhere.

Within my cohort of Quebec Anglos (we are in our thirties), many of QS' positions are more attractive than those of the Liberals.

The general sentiment is that they probably won't get elected anytime soon, but voting for them would serve to increase their voice and legitimacy.

Many of us are tired of the PLQ. They offer nothing except for whatever the status quo happens to be at the time of the election. They don't particularly champion anglo rights either, for what it's worth. All they're good for is not rocking the boat, which has some value in and of itself to many, but is kind of a depressing way to vote. The party needs to be completely rebuilt.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec independence is also potentially part of the appeal of QS in that a smaller country that has a strong collective sense of self and a history of being the trodden-upon little guy is at least on the surface the best option for leftist progressive policies to dominate.

Yes, exactly. QS's dream of a leftist society can only happen in an independent Québec. Canada will always remain dominated by capitalist market forces. It's in the Anglo-Saxon DNA.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yes, exactly. QS's dream of a leftist society can only happen in an independent Québec. Canada will always remain dominated by capitalist market forces. It's in the Anglo-Saxon DNA.

You imagine an independent Quebec could be anti-capitalist? Not politically speaking which seems plausible but economically? It seems to me that Canada would shift to the right aligning with the US and there would be no room left for a high tax/high service economy with the need to also renegotiate trade access to the US and the RoC.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

You imagine an independent Quebec could be anti-capitalist? Not politically speaking which seems plausible but economically?

No. I don't think QS can win power and implement their leftist utopia. But what's certain is they have a higher chance to succeed in an independent Québec than in Canada. So if they are serious about their utopia, and wish to have a least a small chance of ever winning power, they should support Québec's independence.

And in any case, even if they never win power, they can influence the ruling parties more in an independent Québec than in a united Canada (not that I think it would be a good thing, since their leftist policies are a recipe for disaster, but that's another story). So short of wining power, they could at least push the main parties slightly more to the left in an independent Québec, whereas in Ottawa they will always have 0 influence.

[Acajack]

I think that in earlier days Québec solidaire, a lot of anglos maybe thought that a more predominantly socialist independent Quebec was more of a sure thing, and something that drew them to the idea.

I do think that in an independent Quebec something like Québec solidaire (or maybe similar to the Parti socialiste in France) would have more chance of taking power from time to time. Certainly moreso than in Canada where the NDP has never won federally.

If you're an anglo, Quebec independence wasn't really your thing to begin with, and supporting it for the promise of a socialist paradise was already a big leap of faith. It loses its appeal when the latter becomes less of a sure thing.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yes, the Labrador border will be the only one that will be discussed in case of independence, but that's because Québec doesn't recognize this border, so the uti possidetis principle cannot operate here.

That said, I doubt Québec would get the border they want in Labrador in case of independence. They would either have to accept the border set by Canada, or refuse to agree to a border, and so that would be one of those borders on which countries don't agree (those dotted lines on maps... such as a part of the Egyptian-Sudanese border for instance, or the Venezuelan-Guyanese border).


Blanc-Sablon voted OUI in 1995, didn't they?

One has to remember the context of the 1927 Privy Council decision regarding the Labrador border. It was a dispute between two British Dominions at the time: Canada and Newfoundland. Quebec's "refusal" to accept the decision is irrelevant. It was accepted by Canada at the time. Case closed.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Between the falling price of wind/solar and revived interest in nuclear, I'm not sure remote wilderness megadams are going to be a thing in the future.

Plus even if they are - Canada-sans-Quebec wouldn't really be in a realistic position to develop them. The only way to get power from a hypothetical dam there to populated areas of Canada would be a long cable route to Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, and those provinces already have huge offshore wind potential that could be developed far more cheaply.

There's already a power cable between NL and NS called the Maritime Link. It has the capacity to carry 500MW of electricity. Not sure if it's at full capacity with Muskrat Falls power or could handle more power from additional hydro projects in Labrador.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

You imagine an independent Quebec could be anti-capitalist? Not politically speaking which seems plausible but economically? It seems to me that Canada would shift to the right aligning with the US and there would be no room left for a high tax/high service economy with the need to also renegotiate trade access to the US and the RoC.

Yeah, maybe the sentiment of the general population is different but, based on who actually runs things, I don't see how Quebec is any less capitalist than the ROC. Corporate Montreal is like a parallel universe Toronto. Same kinds of firms in the same kinds of sectors, hiring the same kinds of people with the same kind of oligopolistic reach over the country. Maybe even more so, in some cases. Francois Legault comes straight out of this world - he was the former co-founder and CEO of Air Transat. Pierre Karl Peladeau, the former leader of the Parti-Quebecois, is the billionaire scion of the Quebecor fortune that would own most of the media and telecommunications industry if Quebec were independent.

I imagine that if Quebec were independent and QS won the election, any socialist dreams of nationalization or redistribution would last about two seconds before being shot down by Montreal elites.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While the majority are still Liberal voters, I'd argue that Québec solidaire has actually become the second party of Montreal anglos. (Though anglos are not the majority of QS members either - but they make up a disproportionate chunk I'd say.)

I'd add that they're also home to Allophones whose primary language is French, but rejects Quebec's secular values.

One of the examples of the "problem" they'd have with Quebec is that it's way more resistant to "woke" stuff than elsewhere.

QS is very similar to Mélanchon's La France Insoumise that way. Just like how Mélanchon doesn't think the Abaya is a religious outfit, QS also dragged their feet in denouncing Almira Elghawaby's anti-Quebec sentiments. Even the PLQ spoke up before them. It was QS' slap in the face to secularism.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I'd add that they're also home to Allophones whose primary language is French, but rejects Quebec's secular values.



QS is very similar to Mélanchon's La France Insoumise that way. Just like how Mélanchon doesn't think the Abaya is a religious outfit, QS also dragged their feet in denouncing Almira Elghawaby's anti-Quebec sentiments. Even the PLQ spoke up before them. It was QS' slap in the face to secularism.

Québec solidaire was actually quite militantly secularist just a few years ago. (Similar to the progressive left in most of the world which tended to be atheist and hostile to religion.)

Then I guess they sensed which way the wind was blowing. At least for them.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Québec solidaire was actually quite militantly secularist just a few years ago. (Similar to the progressive left in most of the world which tended to be atheist and hostile to religion.)

Then I guess they sensed which way the wind was blowing. At least for them.

Pretty much secularism was thrown out the window by QS when Manon Massé and Nadeau-Dubois took over? That's when the party went full woke.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Pretty much secularism was thrown out the window by QS when Manon Massé and Nadeau-Dubois took over? That's when the party went full woke.

I tend to think Acajack is right that they followed the wind which revealed their niche to very much be white woke and immigrants who feel excluded. Could see them eventually doing well on the Island but hard to see much more of a breakout in the areas that decide QC elections.

[urbandreamer]

I was in Brampton recently and aside from a few older neighborhoods, it feels like a more distinct society than anywhere in Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Pretty much secularism was thrown out the window by QS when Manon Massé and Nadeau-Dubois took over? That's when the party went full woke.

It coincided with when they were there but I wouldn't say they brought it in. More like they rode the wave.

Note that one of their predecessors, Amir Khadir, is a Muslim (not sure how devout) and was more of a pro-secularism guy than these two are today.

At least he was at the time.

He's now gone back to practising medicine AFAIK but is an occasional political commentator on Quebec news networks.

True to form he's now much more in favour of religious accommodation today than he used to be.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

QS is very similar to Mélanchon's La France Insoumise that way.

If QS has become like Mélenchon's party, then Québec is in trouble! We're talking of some real antisemites here. Some MPs who laugh when recalling the awful pogrom committed by Hamas in Israel last month.

See the abhorrent MP from Mélenchon's cult laughing about the Hamas pogrom here: https://twitter.com/EricNaulleau/sta...09013715501560

These people are not just opportunists trying to catch the "ethnic vote" (the real ethnic vote here). They are evil people. Far worse than today's far right.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

True to form he's now much more in favour of religious accommodation today than he used to be.

So how often do you see veiled women in Montréal these days? In Paris there have never been as many veiled women as today, it's frankly frightening. Even in well-heeled neighborhoods with very little Muslim population. 20-something daughters of immigrants born in France who wear black robes and veil from head to toe. It's not only ugly, but it's also contrary to the culture of their parents (this black robe is a cultural import from Saudi Arabia, totally foreign to the countries from where most of these immigrant families come from).

I don't know what goes through the heads of these young women. It's like a cheap way to go to Heaven: you sin, you don't do your 4 or 5 daily prayers, you don't go to the Mosque, you don't do the zakat (mandatory almsgiving for any real Muslim believer), but you do the veil thing (which is not even a religious thing), so you'll get a free pass to Heaven even if you do none of the other things. It's a bit reminiscent of these Christians in the Middle Ages who bought indulgences from the Pope to go to Heaven, while sinning in everyday's life. It's also very similar to these people who are going to buy only organic food, or avoid meat, or even become full vegan, while at the same time smoking 10 or 20 cigarettes a day.

[urbandreamer]

I dated a Conservative Mennonite girl who not only wore modest long dresses but always had on a head covering. In Toronto she'd wear a hat etc but I told her to keep the scarf/covering on, it's sexy ha. Similarly, I find Orthodox Jewish women and Islamic women attractive. Then there's some Russian Orthodox Christians who always wear scarves.

Get out of your Quebec ghetto and discover Mexican Mennonite country!

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It coincided with when they were there but I wouldn't say they brought it in. More like they rode the wave.

Note that one of their predecessors, Amir Khadir, is a Muslim (not sure how devout) and was more of a pro-secularism guy than these two are today.

At least he was at the time.

He's now gone back to practising medicine AFAIK but is an occasional political commentator on Quebec news networks.

True to form he's now much more in favour of religious accommodation today than he used to be.

Got me curious when there were hints that QS was making this intellectual turn towards identity politics and wokeness.. looks like around 2015, so agreed with your insight that Manon and Gabriel was opportunistically riding the wave by the time they took over in 2017:

https://www.huffpost.com/archive/qc/...aire_b_8715472

Around 2017:
https://www.huffpost.com/archive/qc/...bec_b_16348542

Now:
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle...ophobie-quebec

Definitely with irony that QS was celebrating with Adil Charkaoui back in 2009, though it was for principles of liberty at the time: https://www.facebook.com/notes/amir-.../150222475002/

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Got me curious when there were hints that QS was making this intellectual turn towards identity politics and wokeness.. looks like around 2015, so agreed with your insight that Manon and Gabriel was opportunistically riding the wave by the time they took over in 2017:

https://www.huffpost.com/archive/qc/...aire_b_8715472

Around 2017:
https://www.huffpost.com/archive/qc/...bec_b_16348542

Now:
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle...ophobie-quebec

Definitely with irony that QS was celebrating with Adil Charkaoui back in 2009, though it was for principles of liberty at the time: https://www.facebook.com/notes/amir-.../150222475002/

Bad bad decision there. Even back then it was pretty obvious that Adil Charkoui was a really nasty character. Un infréquentable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So how often do you see veiled women in Montréal these days? In Paris there have never been as many veiled women as today, it's frankly frightening. Even in well-heeled neighborhoods with very little Muslim population. 20-something daughters of immigrants born in France who wear black robes and veil from head to toe. It's not only ugly, but it's also contrary to the culture of their parents (this black robe is a cultural import from Saudi Arabia, totally foreign to the countries from where most of these immigrant families come from).

I don't know what goes through the heads of these young women. It's like a cheap way to go to Heaven: you sin, you don't do your 4 or 5 daily prayers, you don't go to the Mosque, you don't do the zakat (mandatory almsgiving for any real Muslim believer), but you do the veil thing (which is not even a religious thing), so you'll get a free pass to Heaven even if you do none of the other things. It's a bit reminiscent of these Christians in the Middle Ages who bought indulgences from the Pope to go to Heaven, while sinning in everyday's life. It's also very similar to these people who are going to buy only organic food, or avoid meat, or even become full vegan, while at the same time smoking 10 or 20 cigarettes a day.

I don't live in Montreal but one my kids does for university, so I'm there a few times a month. In a pretty diverse part of the central city.

Not sure what you mean by "veils" but yes you see hijabs (head scarves) all the time all over the place every time you go out onto the street. Stuff that covers the face is much much rarer but you do see it from time to time as well. Those black robes are also fairly rare. They may wear them with just the hair covered or with the entire face covered. Hijabs are quite predominantly worn just with regular clothing, and even occasionally with skin-tight jeans or yoga pants!

I live in Gatineau in a more suburban area (but not too far from the city centre) and I see hijabs all the time here. My neighbourhood is mostly single-family homes so not as many here but 2 km away are areas with mostly apartments and in the shops and along the boulevards there you are almost 100% certain to see women with hijabs these days.