Halifax Stadium Discussion

[ILoveHalifax]

It seems to me that most people who do not want to watch CFL in Halifax have an idea that the only people who benefit from a team are the CFL owners.

There are all kinds of jobs for a whole range of people in the stadium; as well there are all kinds of football stuff sold in stores as well as barbeques and right on to SUVs. There are people all over North America who might fly into Halifax for a game buying hotel rooms, meals, taking in other tourist sites.

The players become local celebrities who frequently give back in many ways to the local community. Some visit the sick kids who are dying. Much better heros for kids than the gang leaders.

The Maritimes can continue to roll up the tourist welcome mat on Labor Day weekend or it could expand tourism to Grey Cup time.

There is also such a thing as civic pride that comes thru sports teams.

I never was a sports fan until I lived in Miami 25 years ago and there was talk in the office about the Dolfins; that got me hooked and I now enjoy football on many Sundays

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

Good line of thinking, if the book publishers thought the people of Halifax might like to read then why did we not wait for the publishers to build a library?

What a waste of money when the books are available in the stores or on line

Private business does build its own book facilities. We have several Chapters locations around the metro area. The library on the other hand is a free public space that has services far beyond books including internet access and various meeting spaces and study areas. Are you saying you'd expect that a CFL stadium would be entirely free for the public rather than having private businesses selling tickets in order for people to access it?

[Keith P.]

I think the possibility of a CFL team becoming like the basketball team and playing in front of a handful of paying spectators would be quite high. People here do not like to pay to support pro or semi-pro sports for the most part. The Mooseheads are an exception. Previous AHL teams played in front of tiny groups of spectators.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Private business does build its own book facilities. We have several Chapters locations around the metro area. The library on the other hand is a free public space that has services far beyond books including internet access and various meeting spaces and study areas. Are you saying you'd expect that a CFL stadium would be entirely free for the public rather than having private businesses selling tickets in order for people to access it?

I am saying a library can be considered a total waste of money - why do we need to provide FREE books, FREE internet, FREE meeting space when there are places where people can buy books, pay for internet access and also pay for meeting space, but we as a city all chip in a provide said services. WE AS A CITY SHOULD JOIN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY AND PROVIDE A STADIUM whether everybody will use it or not.

[TheNovaScotian]

https://cbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/nfl-funding-summary-12-2-11.pdf
It's a good read not the ideal source but looks accurate. It shows how often public money is spent on this type of infrastructure. There is stadiums that already had NFL teams waiting to move in and a lot of public money was put in strategically.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

https://cbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/nfl-funding-summary-12-2-11.pdf
It's a good read not the ideal source but looks accurate. It shows how often public money is spent on this type of infrastructure. There is stadiums that already had NFL teams waiting to move in and a lot of public money was put in strategically.

This is a particularly American type of mindset. Having a pro sporting team located in your city is a major boost to civic ego. Suddenly your city is a "major league city".

This mindset exists in Canada too, but not to the same degree. In the US, you have cities like Kansas City who have major arenas but little hope of getting an NHL team. It's harder to do this type of stuff up here.

"If you build it, they will come" is an American mantra. The Canadian one is "get your ducks in a row and then we will see about constructing a stadium".

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I am saying a library can be considered a total waste of money - why do we need to provide FREE books, FREE internet, FREE meeting space when there are places where people can buy books, pay for internet access and also pay for meeting space, but we as a city all chip in a provide said services. WE AS A CITY SHOULD JOIN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY AND PROVIDE A STADIUM whether everybody will use it or not.

Public access to information, including books and documents that are very expensive (spending over $100 is a bit much for a book if you only want it for an hour) or old and no longer commercially available, and public space is not the same thing as having access to purchase expensive entertainment from a private company. There's just no comparison.

[fenwick16]

The real point in my opinion is that Halifax doesn't have any type of suitable stadium at this point that can be used for large civic events. How many cities in Canada of 400,000 people don't even have a 10,000 seat stadium.

If Halifax were to build a 10,000 seat stadium, it could easily be built so it can be expanded. A site would be available and neighbours would know that an expanded stadium is a possibility.

City Council voted to not even consider a 10,000 seat stadium that can be expanded. So they decided to not even support a community size stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I think the possibility of a CFL team becoming like the basketball team and playing in front of a handful of paying spectators would be quite high. People here do not like to pay to support pro or semi-pro sports for the most part. The Mooseheads are an exception. Previous AHL teams played in front of tiny groups of spectators.

The AHL is considered to be a minor pro league whereas the CFL is the top pro football league in Canada and has a history that goes back further than the NFL. Canada has made the Grey Cup a tradition in Canada that is broadcast country-wide whereas the Calder Cup isn't.

I think the Mooseheads have done well because it is a Canada-wide league and the top amateur league in Canada and internationally. I don't think Halifax supports provincial Junior A as well (it might be called Junior B in Nova Scotia, I am not sure).

The NBL of Canada might be a significant basketball league in 50 years time if it survives but it is just a fledgling minor league at this point.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The AHL is considered to be a minor pro league whereas the CFL is the top pro football league in Canada and has a history that goes back further than the NFL. Canada has made the Grey Cup a tradition in Canada that is broadcast country-wide whereas the Calder Cup isn't.

I think the Mooseheads have done well because it is a Canada-wide league and the top amateur league in Canada and internationally. I don't think Halifax supports provincial Junior A as well (it might be called Junior B in Nova Scotia, I am not sure).

The NBL of Canada might be a significant basketball league in 50 years time if it survives but it is just a fledgling minor league at this point.

I think Keith's point is that if we can't support minor league teams with lower salaries and thus lower overall costs, how will we be able to maintain a constant fan base that will continue to support a pro team, even if they are not winning?

Sure, we can support a QMJHL team, but so can Sydney, Charlottetown, Saint John, and Moncton. Are they being considered for CFL teams as well?

Let's say we get a CFL team and build a stadium. If attendance dwindles and that team is running a deficit, will tax dollars be spent to keep them afloat? If the team folds, then we have a stadium collecting dust that we will have to pay to maintain. That's where the risk lies, as I see it.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The real point in my opinion is that Halifax doesn't have any type of suitable stadium at this point that can be used for large civic events. How many cities in Canada of 400,000 people don't even have a 10,000 seat stadium.

What's wrong with Scotiabank/Metro Centre? Genuine question, I've never been inside so I don't know what it's like at all. But it seats up to 13,000 for concert events.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

What's wrong with Scotiabank/Metro Centre? Genuine question, I've never been inside so I don't know what it's like at all. But it seats up to 13,000 for concert events.

Hockey stadium has far less floor space.

If we build a 10,000 soccer/football field, there's a lot more space there.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The real point in my opinion is that Halifax doesn't have any type of suitable stadium at this point that can be used for large civic events. How many cities in Canada of 400,000 people don't even have a 10,000 seat stadium.

If Halifax were to build a 10,000 seat stadium, it could easily be built so it can be expanded. A site would be available and neighbours would know that an expanded stadium is a possibility.

City Council voted to not even consider a 10,000 seat stadium that can be expanded. So they decided to not even support a community size stadium.

What was the rational for not even considering a 10,000 stadium unrelated to CFL teams? We really need that on the peninsula, if only for facilities and to attract young families with children downtown. Who wants to commute to Bedford for 5am soccer practice?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

What was the rational for not even considering a 10,000 stadium unrelated to CFL teams? We really need that on the peninsula, if only for facilities and to attract young families with children downtown. Who wants to commute to Bedford for 5am soccer practice?

Actually, I prefer a stadium on the peninsula so I can't argue strongly in favour of Shannon Park for a stadium.

I think the best location is the Wanderers Grounds but some would be against it. However, it was used for that purpose in the past. It is unfortunate that the stands were torn down and not replaced since it is now easy for people to say it is not a suitable location for a stadium.

(source: http://novascotia.ca/archives/Connors/archives.asp?ID=47 )

[MonctonRad]

I have no problem with building a community stadium in Halifax. It sounds like a reasonable project. Just make sure you market it as such.

If it is proposed as a stadium for community soccer/football teams in the downtown core, doing double duty as a university facility for Dalhousie/Saint Mary's, I see no reason why federal and provincial money shouldn't be made available for this project.

Just be prepared for it to be a facility similar to the Moncton Stadium - relatively bare bones and with a seating capacity in the vicinity of 10-12,000. It should be built on the peninsula to allow easy access to the university communities. For this reason, I'm quite happy that Shannon Park is off the table. I never really liked that option in the first place.

I'm sure that a creative architect could come up with a design for a 10,000 seat stadium which would allow for the eventual inclusion of concessions and an expansion to 25,000 seats. Just don't mention the CFL when you approach the feds or the province for funding.

A community stadium like this however would be a valuable bargaining chip in future negotiations with the CFL and a potential ownership group for a CFL team.

BTW - who do you guys envisage as potential franchise owners down there? Are there actually any interested parties???

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I have no problem with building a community stadium in Halifax. It sounds like a reasonable project. Just make sure you market it as such.

If it is proposed as a stadium for community soccer/football teams in the downtown core, doing double duty as a university facility for Dalhousie/Saint Mary's, I see no reason why federal and provincial money shouldn't be made available for this project.

Just be prepared for it to be a facility similar to the Moncton Stadium - relatively bare bones and with a seating capacity in the vicinity of 10-12,000. It should be built on the peninsula to allow easy access to the university communities. For this reason, I'm quite happy that Shannon Park is off the table. I never really liked that option in the first place.

I'm sure that a creative architect could come up with a design for a 10,000 seat stadium which would allow for the eventual inclusion of concessions and an expansion to 25,000 seats. Just don't mention the CFL when you approach the feds or the province for funding.

A community stadium like this however would be a valuable bargaining chip in future negotiations with the CFL and a potential ownership group for a CFL team.

BTW - who do you guys envisage as potential franchise owners down there? Are there actually any interested parties???

Very interesting question - I really do not know who the money people are in Halifax but I would suggest that Empire/Sobeys might benefit from cross advertising/promotion/visibility.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I have no problem with building a community stadium in Halifax. It sounds like a reasonable project. Just make sure you market it as such.

If it is proposed as a stadium for community soccer/football teams in the downtown core, doing double duty as a university facility for Dalhousie/Saint Mary's, I see no reason why federal and provincial money shouldn't be made available for this project.

Just be prepared for it to be a facility similar to the Moncton Stadium - relatively bare bones and with a seating capacity in the vicinity of 10-12,000.

The thing is, HRM already has a perfectly good site that already has a regulation-size football/soccer FieldTurf surface. It is on Commodore Drive in Dartmouth. It would not take much for it to be expanded, certainly not $60 million like we wasted on the library. There is ample space there for parking, concessions, and support structures. It is close to all major highways with excellent access. Certainly the $15 million HRM pi**ed away on the Oval and all of its frills would cover most of the cost of bringing the site up to capacity. I suspect that the big numbers being thrown around are typical HRM cost estimates - just like with the library and the oval, they go to the top-end for everything with no consideration to due economy or respect for the taxpayer who is getting the bill.

I am astounded that this site is not just being expanded/developed incrementally over a period of time.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Actually, I prefer a stadium on the peninsula so I can't argue strongly in favour of Shannon Park for a stadium.

I think the best location is the Wanderers Grounds but some would be against it. However, it was used for that purpose in the past. It is unfortunate that the stands were torn down and not replaced since it is now easy for people to say it is not a suitable location for a stadium.

(source: http://novascotia.ca/archives/Connors/archives.asp?ID=47 )

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the resolution. So, they voted not to consider a 10,000 stadium *in* Shannon Park, but did not necessarily reject finding a peninsular location for such a stadium?

Again, I don't really care so much about CFL capacity, like you, I simply support having a new stadium and sports facilities on the peninsula.

[teddifax]

As for a site on the peninsula, I am thinking of two sites, how big is the old city prison site at the north end of Nova Lea Dr ( I believe some call it The Pit) or a redevelopment of the VG Hospital site. I feel there is a lot of space here as the old hospital can be torn down and have the Infirmary Hospital expanded (they have the space to expand up and out) as well as the Dartmouth General is currently being renovated. The VG site could also have a residential component. I am thinking 4 towers in the corners, with the stadium in the centre and lots of room for underground parking.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Sounds like we have two parallel discussions going on here:

(1) A community-level field for local people to use, located on the peninsula;

(2) A large CFL-grade stadium to hopefully lure a CFL team to locate in Halifax and to be used for other large events, such as major concerts, soccer events, etc.

On (1), I totally agree. A community-level field doesn't require the seating/parking capacity of a large stadium and therefore would be easier to find a site for. Plus, giving back to the community as such, it will help attract families to perhaps consider the downtown/peninsula area as a viable place to raise their kids.

On (2), I don't really think that this is what we need right now, but that's just my opinion, of course. I do think, however, that Keith's idea of the Commodore site is actually a good one. I already know it will be dismissed by many here, as it's not as sexy as locating one right downtown, but think about it... there is lots of room there to build a stadium around it, ample parking, located near major arteries, transit to the site could easily be ramped up for major events, and there is currently room for expansion. There are also at least 3 hotels within a couple of minutes of the field that could accommodate out of town attendees. As an added bonus, there is no residential around that area, which perhaps will be viewed as a negative here, but consider the noise complaints that surrounded the concerts on the commons - you could plan any event, no matter how loud, without any noise issues.

As a side point, I'm surprised that the idea of a baseball stadium to lure a triple A team hasn't been suggested. Halifax-Dartmouth used to be a hotbed of baseball action back in the 1950s, with several local players making it to the big leagues. I'm guessing there are more football than baseball fans here?

As usual, just 2¢ from an average guy on the street...