Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[spm2013]

Well the panel has spoken.

An international panel of land use experts injected themselves into the hot debate over a proposed Broadway transit line Thursday, saying TransLink’s current bus route to the University of B.C. is so inadequate that the system “is essentially at failure” and the only realistic alternative is a new high-capacity line bored underground.

The Urban Land Institute, a Washington D.C.-based group, said Vancouver also needs to avoid making other cities’ mistakes by trying to pay for expensive expansions by linking land use and density to the form of transportation. Putting highrise developments at every station isn’t a good idea, they said.

“You guys do high rises very nicely. But you are sort of drunk on high rises. You don’t need towers everywhere,” said Dick Reynolds, the chairman of a ULI “governor’s advisory panel,” which spent three days examining the Broadway route.

“Just don’t get caught up in the idea that if you pick an expensive transit system for a whole lot of good reasons, you’ve got to upzone everything.”

Reynolds and four other land use experts issued an interim report Thursday that backs up Vancouver’s preference for a bored tunnel between Commercial Drive and UBC. They met with city officials, TransLink and neighbourhood groups. A full report will be issued in two months.

Among the early conclusions the panel offered were that:

• TransLink should avoid light rail technology or a subway built by cut-and-cover method.

• UBC, the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority and other major employers along the line need to help pay for the system.

• Transit should not drive zoning; existing commercial zones should be filled out first.

• The city has lots of unfilled commercial density east of Burrard Street that can generate jobs.

• The city should largely leave low-density neighbourhoods to the west alone.

With more than a million people and 600,000 jobs expected to move into Vancouver by 2041, the Broadway corridor will continue to cement its status as one of the major job generators in the region, Reynolds said.

“It is our sense that the subway alternative does offer sufficient incremental value to warrant being the long-term solution,” Reynolds said. “It would only work if construction could be done financially and physically by boring rather than cut-and-cover. We’ve lived through areas that have been cut-and-cover and we understand the impacts.”

Reynolds said TransLink, the city and the province need to build relations with neighbourhoods that are clearly wary of the proposed line, in part because of the disruption they witnessed during construction of the Canada Line.

“We had a clear sense that there are some pretty good disconnects that exist here,” he said. “Unfortunately disconnects therefore lead to a lack of trust and confidence.”

TransLink has made no decision about when it will build a new line or what kind of technology will be used. Tamim Raad, the director of strategic planning, said TransLink is developing a regional transportation strategic plan of all necessary projects, against which the Broadway corridor will be measured. There is no indication when Broadway construction would begin, he said.

TransLink recently issued a high-level look at the corridor that examined three technologies; light rail, rapid transit (SkyTrain) and a hybrid concept. While no technology was chosen, TransLink thinks a light rail line from Commercial to UBC is workable, Raad said.

Vancouver Coun. Geoff Meggs said the ULI’s findings supported the city’s view.

“I was really gratified their conclusions were fundamentally the same as our technical evaluations by our engineers, which is that given the growth that Vancouver is going to have to absorb, the bored tunnel subway is the best answer,” he said. “Not just for handling the growth but to protect the neighbourhoods along the route that would suffer really serious disruption with light rail.”

Former premier and Vancouver mayor Michael Harcourt, who attended the ULI’s briefing, said he is not convinced TransLink will change from its position of wanting an above-ground system, despite the panel’s findings.

“I have a disconnect with TransLink. They have this thing about wanting to go at surface and I think they are out to lunch,” he said. “It’s just dumb, dumb, dumb. You are going to be moving the equivalent of the Expo line, 200,000 people a day. You can’t do that on a surface street car.”

http://www.vancouversun.com/American+group+says+route+failure/9478912/story.html

[usog]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I just don't get that. Broadway all the way to UBC clearly NEEDS Skytrain, whereas Surrey just wants it because they think it's not fair they don't have it. Let Surrey fill it's B-Line to 50,000 people a day and then we can talk about it.

Surrey doesn't need skytrain right now but the rest of Metro Vancouver has needs as well. And UBC doesn't need skytrain either, the Broadway Corridor needs skytrain. If anything they should be improving the east-west bus routes that run parallel to Broadway to distribute ridership to UBC better. I'd just rather the massive investment needed to send Skytrain beyond Granville be spent helping a greater amount of people rather than just UBC students. With that money, you could probably get the extra seabus, more B-Lines, that gondola to SFU, more west coast express service, overall better bus service, and more. The net benefit is just better. The only reasonable way skytrain would make its way to UBC is probably if the school paid for the majority of the extension imo.

[casper]

I thought UBC had that Upass system where virtually all students are forced to purchase a discounted transit pass as part of their student fees. That is what 50,000 + passengers that are already purchasing passes within walking distance of a UBC station.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by KPELLY

I'm not sure how you could ever think that going all the way to UBC is a "gross waste of funds". Have you ever ridden the 99? Anybody trying to get on the bus at McDonald, alma, or sasamat gets passed up multiple times every morning on the way to UBC with 2 minute frequencies. And the 99 is only one of 8 busses that run up Broadway, 4th and 16th to UBC. There are 50,000 students and over 10,000 staff at UBC and growing every year, it's the 3rd largest employment centre in metro Vancouver. With some of the highest transit ridership of any area in the country, ending the line at alma would be the worst possible thing they could do. Since the line would also replace the 84, and take riders from the 14, 4, 44, 9, you would have an average over 150 people per minute trying to get on busses for the last leg of the trip during peak times. It would be worse than it is now for those riders.

You forgot to mention the 41, which although further south, will be significantly relieved by a rapid transit line along Broadway.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by usog

Surrey doesn't need skytrain right now but the rest of Metro Vancouver has needs as well. And UBC doesn't need skytrain either, the Broadway Corridor needs skytrain. If anything they should be improving the east-west bus routes that run parallel to Broadway to distribute ridership to UBC better. I'd just rather the massive investment needed to send Skytrain beyond Granville be spent helping a greater amount of people rather than just UBC students. With that money, you could probably get the extra seabus, more B-Lines, that gondola to SFU, more west coast express service, overall better bus service, and more. The net benefit is just better. The only reasonable way skytrain would make its way to UBC is probably if the school paid for the majority of the extension imo.

The thing you don't seem to understand is just because your option is cheaper doesn't mean the extra money will be spent on other projects. It's all money TransLink doesn't have so even one penny going towards the Broadway Line will have to be borrowed.

You also seem to misunderstand the difference between capital expenses and operational expenses. The billions of dollars of capital expenses needed to build a SkyTrain line can be repaid over 30+ years, whereas the money needed to operate an extra SeaBus, B-Lines, and more bus service are operational expenses that need to be covered by cash-flow.

[spm2013]

Originally Posted by Jebby

The thing you don't seem to understand is just because your option is cheaper doesn't mean the extra money will be spent on other projects. It's all money TransLink doesn't have so even one penny going towards the Broadway Line will have to be borrowed.

You also seem to misunderstand the difference between capital expenses and operational expenses. The billions of dollars of capital expenses needed to build a SkyTrain line can be repaid over 30+ years, whereas the money needed to operate an extra SeaBus, B-Lines, and more bus service are operational expenses that need to be covered by cash-flow.

He probably knows the difference. And he's probably talking about purchasing new equipment and not just running existing services more frequently.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by spm2013

He probably knows the difference. And he's probably talking about purchasing new equipment and not just running existing services more frequently.

Buses are not usually bought with 30+ year financing. And once you buy those busses, you have the additional operational expenses which do not have the same ROI that SkyTrain has. Also, theres a limit (which has been reached) on how much more you can expand capacity using busses on Broadway and parallel east-west routes.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by usog

Surrey doesn't need skytrain right now but the rest of Metro Vancouver has needs as well. And UBC doesn't need skytrain either, the Broadway Corridor needs skytrain. If anything they should be improving the east-west bus routes that run parallel to Broadway to distribute ridership to UBC better. I'd just rather the massive investment needed to send Skytrain beyond Granville be spent helping a greater amount of people rather than just UBC students. With that money, you could probably get the extra seabus, more B-Lines, that gondola to SFU, more west coast express service, overall better bus service, and more. The net benefit is just better. The only reasonable way skytrain would make its way to UBC is probably if the school paid for the majority of the extension imo.

That's fair, thanks for including busses in your argument. I get a little caught up when people say you can't build Skytrain on Broadway cause then Surrey can't have any, because I don't think they really need it, but I definitely agree with you that they could use better bus service.

But I also think that extending it to UBC makes sense because of economies of scale. They're gonna end up extending it there anyway and it would be a lot cheaper to do it all at once rather than ordering another TBM later on.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

That's fair, thanks for including busses in your argument. I get a little caught up when people say you can't build Skytrain on Broadway cause then Surrey can't have any, because I don't think they really need it, but I definitely agree with you that they could use better bus service.

But I also think that extending it to UBC makes sense because of economies of scale. They're gonna end up extending it there anyway and it would be a lot cheaper to do it all at once rather than ordering another TBM later on.

May I second that? I think you've got it nailed

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

May I second that? I think you've got it nailed

Thanks dude!

[a very long weekend]

so that panel thinks that transit shouldn't drive zoning? like, oh, so you want the people of the lower mainland to spend billions on a nice new rapid transit line to zip you from your single family detached home and village-like ambiance on university avenue? i can't wait until the ubc golf course is a sea of 30 story towers and bars and restaurants, wish it could happen tomorrow just to spike the ball on these suckers.

anyway, no point in even thinking about it too much, since the voters will obviously reject any transit expansion referendum the province throws up there.

[quobobo]

^ Amen.

[satishreddy]

I don't agree with the statement:

UBC, the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority and other major employers along the line need to help pay for the system.

(1) My understanding is that the only external entity to make a capital payment is the Airport Authority. Capital payments have been made by the governments (federal, provincial, municipal) and Translink. Who else has paid?

(2) Did businesses in downtown or elsewhere on the existing Expo, Millenium, and Canada lines have to pay a fee for capital costs of those lines?

(3) Why limit the charge to business. Shouldn't individual homeowners also pay?

(4) Naturally, if the market values a subway, which I am quite sure it does, then the property values along the route will increase faster than those away from the route, and the businesses and homeowners along the route will have to pay higher property taxes. Hence, a capital charge is already built into property taxes. Why should they pay even more?

[spm2013]

Well some condo developers were planning to help fund the Capstan Way station but ended up not meeting Translink's requirements. So there is some precedent. And Coastal Health will also fund the new Cambie/57th Station. Sure it isn't hundreds of millions of dollars... but whatever.

An increasingly dense Cambie corridor has been in city plans for years, but development pressure is about to go through the roof with massive rezonings.

The latest proposal moving forward this week — Vancouver Coastal Health's plan to redevelop about four blocks at Cambie and 57th — isn’t just about building condos and fixing old health facilities.

Transit hubs are seen as integral to the city’s plans for Cambie, and there is no Canada Line station at 57th.

That means the VCH project will be under pressure to raise money for a new underground Canada Line station. That money would come from developers, and upzoning. TransLink, the city and province are fiscally challenged, and struggling to fund higher-priority projects elsewhere.

A new station would be an important community amenity to be funded along with care facility upgrades on the site, VCH spokeswoman Anna Maria D’Angelo said. This redevelopment, if profitable enough, could be a cash generator for other VCH facility needs, D’Angelo said. City council this week approved a preliminary guideline that would see 3,000 mostly market condo units, with buildings up to 28 stories.

Rezoning for the site will occur in council over the next two years. The city wants a new Canada Line station at the site, and also one at Cambie and 33rd. Condo development in the Queen Elizabeth Park area by 33rd is already under way.

TransLink doesn’t have the money for two additional Canada Line stations, which would cost well over $30-million per station, planning director Tamim Raad said.

“Our primary approach to funding future stations is through community, municipal and or developer contributions,” Raad said.

Another massive highrise development at Oakridge Centre mall is in the works, in addition to a transit-hub redevelopment at Marine Drive and Cambie. Also, TransLink and the city are working on plans for high-density redevelopment of a 13.8-acre TransLink yard at 41st and Oak, which TransLink says it no longers needs for operations.

The city is now implementing the “second-phase” of the Cambie densification plan, with the third phase to look at the Marpole neighbourhood in between 57th and Marine Drive.

http://www.theprovince.com/Vancouver+eye...velopment+Cambie+57th/9478500/story.html

[usog]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

That's fair, thanks for including busses in your argument. I get a little caught up when people say you can't build Skytrain on Broadway cause then Surrey can't have any, because I don't think they really need it, but I definitely agree with you that they could use better bus service.

But I also think that extending it to UBC makes sense because of economies of scale. They're gonna end up extending it there anyway and it would be a lot cheaper to do it all at once rather than ordering another TBM later on.

Haha np, and thanks for not being condescending unlike the other fellow. My point has always been that skytrain to Cambie or Granville is an undeniably top priority, but the idea of hitching a UBC extension to such a project isn't viable. You would save some money doing it all at once to UBC but there's a combination of the political and financial realities that we have to deal with.

Every city other than Vancouver will probably block or vote against it, I can't see any favors the city leadership could call in to make it happen like with the Canada Line. Tied to politics, translink has serious issues with maintaining or expanding current service. The political capital needed to get money for such a capital investment for Skytrain to UBC would be far better utilized sourcing secure funding for the overall system as a whole.

At the end of the day funding is zero sum and can politicians really justify making the commutes of UBC students(who through the subsidized nature of the U-Pass system might take more than they give into the system anyways) better rather than bringing greater service to everyone as a whole? Given the choice of Skytrain to Granville or nothing, because getting the whole line to UBC in one go isn't happening in my opinion, wouldn't you take the former instantly?

Also regarding that panel recommendation about zoning: Maybe they should get some experts from Asian countries rather than Americans to sort out our system.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by usog

Haha np, and thanks for not being condescending unlike the other fellow. My point has always been that skytrain to Cambie or Granville is an undeniably top priority, but the idea of hitching a UBC extension to such a project isn't viable. You would save some money doing it all at once to UBC but there's a combination of the political and financial realities that we have to deal with.

Every city other than Vancouver will probably block or vote against it, I can't see any favors the city leadership could call in to make it happen like with the Canada Line. Tied to politics, translink has serious issues with maintaining or expanding current service. The political capital needed to get money for such a capital investment for Skytrain to UBC would be far better utilized sourcing secure funding for the overall system as a whole.

At the end of the day funding is zero sum and can politicians really justify making the commutes of UBC students(who through the subsidized nature of the U-Pass system might take more than they give into the system anyways) better rather than bringing greater service to everyone as a whole? Given the choice of Skytrain to Granville or nothing, because getting the whole line to UBC in one go isn't happening in my opinion, wouldn't you take the former instantly?

Also regarding that panel recommendation about zoning: Maybe they should get some experts from Asian countries rather than Americans to sort out our system.

Yeah, there's for sure something ironic about Americans telling us how to fix our transit system

Yeah, if they did only build it to Cambie, Granville, Arbutus or all the way to the end I wouldn't really mind. I think both sides (only part way or all the way to UBC) have merit so whatever Translink ends up doing I'll be happy. As long as they do end up improving service elsewhere in the system.

[Genauso]

If you were to look at Translink's spending on a map it wouldn't be "fair" or "evenly spread". Surrey would dominate since the bus fleet expansion multiplied by the biggest subsidy per passenger km of the region, or the last two most expensive bridges in the region's history.

If there should be any one municipality complaining, I think North Vancouver has the most rights to do so given their bridges and transit. I think most complaining is misdirected or by those who are misled. Justified complaints or at least arguments based in researched fact seem to have a beginning and an end, releases of stress tend not to have the latter.

[SpongeG]

couldn't they just build underground LRT/skytrain to arbutus in a first phase and later on continue it out to ubc

even building it to cambie/broadway would be a great start and make a big impact

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Amen. Extending Skytrain all the way out to UBC may not be necessary, but it certainly has more justification than any Skytrain in Surrey at this point.

The percentage of low yield users U-pass users on any UBC line would be staggering. At least a Surrey line would have better cost recovery and that's the area where the popualtion growth will be.

Politically there's no also no reason for the Premier to reward the riding that shunned her.

[spm2013]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The percentage of low yield users U-pass users on any UBC line would be staggering. At least a Surrey line would have better cost recovery and that's the area where the popualtion growth will be.

Politically there's no also no reason for the Premier to reward the riding that shunned her.

That's why they'll "agree" to building both lines in some form and then pressure her to fund them.