Tempe Development Thread

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by apocalyptic0n3

I worked in the back office of the first floor of HFL1 (the large one behind the Bean) for a year (May 2012-May 2013); I was a developer with Xhibit before the SkyMall acquisition. When I first started there, the parking was deducted from my pay and was actually shown on my pay stubs. I think it was $22 every two weeks. This was shortly after the company had been formed and we made a huge stink about it and it disappeared for the full-time employees (I believe contract workers, paid interns, and part timers were still charged).

I never considered it would be standard for employers to charge employees for parking in HFL, though, and just assumed it was one in a long line of bad management decisions.

For the record (and this may have changed), that garage was never near capacity. Only during Sun Devil games did it ever come close. I parked along the south wall, third pole from the eastern wall, on the third floor. That floor was maybe 40% occupied on business days. Higher up and the garage was almost entirely empty and occupied mostly by people with nicer cars that didn't get the VIP spots under the garage.

Even with HFLIII and possible overflow from Marina Heights, I can't see it ever being full on normal days. Will Monti's replacement have a garage with it? That's the only thing I can think of that could maybe push it toward capacity.

EDIT: Just remembered the (I think) hotel going up to the east of the garage. That will make the garage more crowded, but unless it's a 20 story hotel filled to capacity every single day, I don't see it making that big an impact on a garage that was as empty as that one usually was.

Yes, Rio+Mill will have an integrated parking structure as any project should in a downtown. Marina Heights also has two humungous garages attached to their buildings, so overflow had better not be happening.

The hotel is ~5 stories BTW.

[DevilsRider]

Originally Posted by apocalyptic0n3

I worked in the back office of the first floor of HFL1 (the large one behind the Bean) for a year (May 2012-May 2013); I was a developer with Xhibit before the SkyMall acquisition. When I first started there, the parking was deducted from my pay and was actually shown on my pay stubs. I think it was $22 every two weeks. This was shortly after the company had been formed and we made a huge stink about it and it disappeared for the full-time employees (I believe contract workers, paid interns, and part timers were still charged).

I never considered it would be standard for employers to charge employees for parking in HFL, though, and just assumed it was one in a long line of bad management decisions.

For the record (and this may have changed), that garage was never near capacity. Only during Sun Devil games did it ever come close. I parked along the south wall, third pole from the eastern wall, on the third floor. That floor was maybe 40% occupied on business days. Higher up and the garage was almost entirely empty and occupied mostly by people with nicer cars that didn't get the VIP spots under the garage.

Even with HFLIII and possible overflow from Marina Heights, I can't see it ever being full on normal days. Will Monti's replacement have a garage with it? That's the only thing I can think of that could maybe push it toward capacity.

EDIT: Just remembered the (I think) hotel going up to the east of the garage. That will make the garage more crowded, but unless it's a 20 story hotel filled to capacity every single day, I don't see it making that big an impact on a garage that was as empty as that one usually was.

Thanks for the insider's perspective! Also curious whether transit passes were offered to employees. I know some of my old coworkers would never have paid $104 a month for a transit pass, but since my employer offered one for free, they took advantage and used it a lot instead of always driving in.

One problem Tempe faces compared to Phoenix is that we don't have express buses coming in from all parts of the Valley (or at least from other east valley cities). We're basically relying on the light rail and the Rural Road and University buses to bring people downtown from out-of-Tempe right now. I could see that changing more as more and more jobs come to Tempe (especially if Rural Road BRT and commuter rail ever happen), but for now, I think it's tough to convince somebody coming from Gilbert or South Chandler, for example, to drive to Sycamore and Main, or to park and Chandler mall and take a regular city bus subject to all the regular traffic. The Gilbert Rd light rail extension will help draw more people from east Mesa and north Gilbert, I think, but probably not so much south Gilbert or Chandler.

Which, of course, is another reason that more market-rate housing nearby is so important (which is why it's so good to see SkyWater, Hanover, SALT, Alta, the place next to the marina, and even the new Camden apartments in the last couple years). Hopefully many of these get filled up by Marina Heights, HFL, or Rio+Mill employees (and yes, not everyone will want to live there, because some people will always want to raise their kids in the suburbs, but not everyone has kids, and some people actually want to raise their kids in a more urban setting), and hopefully all these buildings don't get taken over by students. University House 2 should help with that somewhat.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by DevilsRider

Thanks for the insider's perspective! Also curious whether transit passes were offered to employees. I know some of my old coworkers would never have paid $104 a month for a transit pass, but since my employer offered one for free, they took advantage and used it a lot instead of always driving in.

One problem Tempe faces compared to Phoenix is that we don't have express buses coming in from all parts of the Valley (or at least from other east valley cities). We're basically relying on the light rail and the Rural Road and University buses to bring people downtown from out-of-Tempe right now. I could see that changing more as more and more jobs come to Tempe (especially if Rural Road BRT and commuter rail ever happen), but for now, I think it's tough to convince somebody coming from Gilbert or South Chandler, for example, to drive to Sycamore and Main, or to park and Chandler mall and take a regular city bus subject to all the regular traffic. The Gilbert Rd light rail extension will help draw more people from east Mesa and north Gilbert, I think, but probably not so much south Gilbert or Chandler.

Which, of course, is another reason that more market-rate housing nearby is so important (which is why it's so good to see SkyWater, Hanover, SALT, Alta, the place next to the marina, and even the new Camden apartments in the last couple years). Hopefully many of these get filled up by Marina Heights, HFL, or Rio+Mill employees (and yes, not everyone will want to live there, because some people will always want to raise their kids in the suburbs, but not everyone has kids, and some people actually want to raise their kids in a more urban setting), and hopefully all these buildings don't get taken over by students. University House 2 should help with that somewhat.

You hit the nail on the head on two important things.

I completely agree that there really isn't any reliable/efficient mass transit option for a good majority of commuters who work in downtown Tempe. There is, of course, a group that may be use light rail from the west side as well as one that utilizes one of the Apache park-n-rides; but for most residents of the East Valley (where I'd wager much of their workforce is living), using their car is really the simplest way of getting down there. That's why there are several options Tempe could have chosen to prioritize for their next transit initiative over this streetcar, which is an absolutely redundant route when you consider the mix of light rail, local buses, Orbitz, and the fact that using a bike - or even walking in some cases - will be faster than using the streetcar. The best medium-term plan, IMO, would have been prioritizing a BRT system with 2 initial lines: 1 from Ray Rd - McDowell (providing access to downtown to Chandler, South Tempe, North Tempe and South Scottsdale residents, and connecting the Civic Plaza on Southern and SkySong on McDowell to the greater network), 1 from a beefed up transit center at University/Rural that heads down Broadway to Priest/Alameda with an eventual terminus at Baseline (connecting Fountainhead and Arizona Mills).

I also completely agree re: market rate housing downtown. Most people disagree with me when I criticize prime real estate downtown or along the Apache Corridor being used for either student housing or lowrise residential projects. But, this real estate is extremely limited, and having a good-sized population of permanent/year-round, working professionals living in the core is an extremely important goal toward achieving the vibrant, sustainable and urban city Tempe wants to become. Student housing projects are great for providing foot traffic Sep - May, but they don't have the purchasing power to bring the kind of retail needed for Tempe to make the next leap: a grocery store, home goods, more clothing options, etc. And, while the projects you listed are good additions and a step in the right direction, any future residential really needs to be as high/dense as possible given the limited amount of space left to accomplish this.

[PHXFlyer11]

I don't believe that the type of people who work in Class A office buildings are interested in taking the bus from South Tempe, Scottsdale, etc.

Rail is different. I think many would consider rail if it was convenient for them. I don't believe this is much different in other major cities. Subways are considered acceptable transit for white collar folks, but buses are not in the major of cities.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by DevilsRider

Does anybody know if HFL does (or if Marina Heights will) charge employees for parking like some places do in downtown PHX, or is it more like suburban office complexes where parking is provided free as a perk? If there's a cost to the employee for parking, that's one thing that could help shift people to transit (IF good transit connections are available when Marina Heights opens, or in the future).

IF parking isnt free at Marina I will personally hunt downt he executives here and force them too make it free.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I don't believe that the type of people who work in Class A office buildings are interested in taking the bus from South Tempe, Scottsdale, etc.

Rail is different. I think many would consider rail if it was convenient for them. I don't believe this is much different in other major cities. Subways are considered acceptable transit for white collar folks, but buses are not in the major of cities.

I'm not talking about regular buses, I'm talking about bus rapid transit with dedicated lanes, raised platforms for boarding, etc. It eliminates may of the issues that normal city buses have that cause them to have a perceived stigma. There's no evidence to support that this can't be just as successful of a mass transit option to something like light rail; in LA, which is far more upscale and car-loving, a watered down version of BRT has been extremely successful. It's a much more cost-effective solution, and would be implemented much quicker than light rail. There have also already been studies down that prove the numbers don't justify an investment in light rail along Rural/Scottsdale Rd, with BRT being highlighted as the most likely candidate.

Without commuter rail, people are going to need to be open to other modes of mass transit beyond light rail.

BRT has been successful in NYC, LA, Cleveland, Kansas City, Albuquerque, and many places outside the U.S.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

I'm not talking about regular buses, I'm talking about bus rapid transit with dedicated lanes, raised platforms for boarding, etc. It eliminates may of the issues that normal city buses have that cause them to have a perceived stigma. There's no evidence to support that this can't be just as successful of a mass transit option to something like light rail; in LA, which is far more upscale and car-loving, a watered down version of BRT has been extremely successful. It's a much more cost-effective solution, and would be implemented much quicker than light rail. There have also already been studies down that prove the numbers don't justify an investment in light rail along Rural/Scottsdale Rd, with BRT being highlighted as the most likely candidate.

Without commuter rail, people are going to need to be open to other modes of mass transit beyond light rail.

BRT has been successful in NYC, LA, Cleveland, Kansas City, Albuquerque, and many places outside the U.S.

I suspect that the Rural / Scottsdale study results would have been different if rail had been a real possibility in Scottsdale. If the study focused only on Tempe and Chandler, then the numbers would trend towards rail because the critical mass to support rail would be lacking. Regardless of what any studies say, bus stigma is real and no amount of special features and dedicated lanes can erase it -- at least not in the U.S., which operates under different political, cultural, and economic realities than cities like Bogota that are often cited as BRT success stories. Yes, we should consider modes beyond light rail, but BRT is seldom the best option -- unless of course it's being used to reach vacant ground floor retail space (attempted humor about our many differences of opinion).

[Spitfiredude]

Hanover looks REALLY good. The brick matches the brick on Mill.

I like the idea of the light rail going to Skysong, but no further. I debated with people on this issue several years ago on the Phoenix/Scottsdale threads. Keeping light rail out of Old Town keeps out the rift raft - which is a primary reason the city keeps it out and why I like Old Town. The only benefit I could see it providing Scottsdale residents is ridership between Tempe and Old Town, but past that I don't see most residents using it for further transportation. Its important to remember most residents have all the necessary amenities in the downtown Scottsdale region (shopping/entertainment/grocery) and 90% of Old Town residents are not students. The connection between Skysong and ASU would be great and I could see that portion providing student transportation from South Scottsdale to ASU.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I suspect that the Rural / Scottsdale study results would have been different if rail had been a real possibility in Scottsdale. If the study focused only on Tempe and Chandler, then the numbers would trend towards rail because the critical mass to support rail would be lacking. Regardless of what any studies say, bus stigma is real and no amount of special features and dedicated lanes can erase it -- at least not in the U.S., which operates under different political, cultural, and economic realities than cities like Bogota that are often cited as BRT success stories. Yes, we should consider modes beyond light rail, but BRT is seldom the best option -- unless of course it's being used to reach vacant ground floor retail space (attempted humor about our many differences of opinion).

Then, for a city like Tempe which wants to be a leader in sustainability and mobility beyond the car, it will be nearly impossible to create a successful and efficient mass transit network that moves people from the north and south sides of town to the central downtown. Trying to plan and fund light rail extensions of their own will take decades, commuter rail is too reliant on regional buy-in, and while streetcar had the potential to become a relevant part of the overall transit system, their 40 year plan for it is mind-blowingly awful.

What do you suggest for a city like Tempe that still has the majority of its neighborhoods disconnected from mass transit, and has several key employment/neighborhood centers that need to be accessible in a successful system?

I don't think BRT is the *best* solution. But, when dollars are tight and a rapid transit system desperately needed, I think it's a perfectly acceptable interim solution that performs much better than you're giving it credit for. Cities like LA and NYC wouldn't embrace these buses if there wasn't a perceived difference between them and regular city buses. If done properly, riders wouldn't even realize they were on a bus. The design, boarding process, speed, and efficiency would be nearly identical to light rail.

But, even I'll concede that ground level retail is not a requirement for BRT corridors.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

What do you suggest for a city like Tempe that still has the majority of its neighborhoods disconnected from mass transit, and has several key employment/neighborhood centers that need to be accessible in a successful system?

I don't think BRT is the *best* solution. But, when dollars are tight and a rapid transit system desperately needed, I think it's a perfectly acceptable interim solution that performs much better than you're giving it credit for. Cities like LA and NYC wouldn't embrace these buses if there wasn't a perceived difference between them and regular city buses. If done properly, riders wouldn't even realize they were on a bus. The design, boarding process, speed, and efficiency would be nearly identical to light rail.

If we're talking Tempe acting on its own, I'd just focus on adding Orbit routes and increasing frequency on existing regular bus routes. I'd go ahead with the streetcar only if the frequency of service will be high enough (every 5-10 minutes) to be competitive with walking or bicycling. Otherwise, I'd skip the project. Streetcars in mixed traffic have a mixed record. The one in Tuscon seems a good fit for a small city; the new one in Atlanta seems less successful.

If we're talking Tempe acting in cooperation with its neighbors, then I agree that BRT might be a good *interim* solution. The existing LINK bus service in Mesa and Chandler, a sort of BRT-lite service, is doing that job well by providing connections today and preparing the area for light rail in the future. The Central Mesa light rail construction now under construction will build upon LINK and take ridership to a much higher level.

What bothers me is when BRT is advocated as a permanent alternative to LRT. That's often done by anti-transit forces who are eager to show they're pro-something rather than anti-everything. What happens then is that we get minimal BRT that fully deserves its nickname of "Build Roads Today." In those few cases that involve full BRT, including all the features you have named, then the costs approach those of LRT, especially when the short life span of buses (as compared to the much longer one of train cars) is factored in.

Even with all those features, BRT often offers a less comfortable ride than LRT. I remember a business trip I made to Boston a few years ago. Upon arrival at Logan, MBTA signs directed me to the Silver Line as the best way to travel to my hotel. I boarded Boston's BRT expecting a quick, smooth ride into Downtown. Instead, it was as noisy and bumpy as any bus ride I've ever experienced and we wasted time with a stop while the bus switched between diesel and electric power.

Having learned my lesson, when it was time to go home, I made my trip back to the airport via the Blue Line, the perfectly good heavy rail line that has served Logan for decades. I'm still trying to figure out why the MBTA was promoting the Silver Line so much, but I'm guessing it had something to with proving that its BRT was just as good as rail, when in fact it fell far short.

That said, if Chandler and/or Scottsdale can be persuaded to cooperate, then interim BRT on Rural / Scottsdale makes sense. I think Chandler will likely be interested since it already has LINK on Arizona Avenue. Scottsdale is more of a long-shot. The same forces who fight rail in that city have also denounced BRT, maybe because they see it as a precursor to rail, which is exactly what it should be.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

If we're talking Tempe acting on its own, I'd just focus on adding Orbit routes and increasing frequency on existing regular bus routes. I'd go ahead with the streetcar only if the frequency of service will be high enough (every 5-10 minutes) to be competitive with walking or bicycling. Otherwise, I'd skip the project. Streetcars in mixed traffic have a mixed record. The one in Tuscon seems a good fit for a small city; the new one in Atlanta seems less successful.

If we're talking Tempe acting in cooperation with its neighbors, then I agree that BRT might be a good *interim* solution. The existing LINK bus service in Mesa and Chandler, a sort of BRT-lite service, is doing that job well by providing connections today and preparing the area for light rail in the future. The Central Mesa light rail construction now under construction will build upon LINK and take ridership to a much higher level.

What bothers me is when BRT is advocated as a permanent alternative to LRT. That's often done by anti-transit forces who are eager to show they're pro-something rather than anti-everything. What happens then is that we get minimal BRT that fully deserves its nickname of "Build Roads Today." In those few cases that involve full BRT, including all the features you have named, then the costs approach those of LRT, especially when the short life span of buses (as compared to the much longer one of train cars) is factored in.

Even with all those features, BRT often offers a less comfortable ride than LRT. I remember a business trip I made to Boston a few years ago. Upon arrival at Logan, MBTA signs directed me to the Silver Line as the best way to travel to my hotel. I boarded Boston's BRT expecting a quick, smooth ride into Downtown. Instead, it was as noisy and bumpy as any bus ride I've ever experienced and we wasted time with a stop while the bus switched between diesel and electric power.

Having learned my lesson, when it was time to go home, I made my trip back to the airport via the Blue Line, the perfectly good heavy rail line that has served Logan for decades. I'm still trying to figure out why the MBTA was promoting the Silver Line so much, but I'm guessing it had something to with proving that its BRT was just as good as rail, when in fact it fell far short.

That said, if Chandler and/or Scottsdale can be persuaded to cooperate, then interim BRT on Rural / Scottsdale makes sense. I think Chandler will likely be interested since it already has LINK on Arizona Avenue. Scottsdale is more of a long-shot. The same forces who fight rail in that city have also denounced BRT, maybe because they see it as a precursor to rail, which is exactly what it should be.

There's no way the Tempe streetcar will be competitive with walking and biking (especially biking - which they're so proud of making the streetcars accomodating to bikes ). It's completely redundant with the Orbit system and light rail.

And, yes, by Tempe, I was imagining a Ray-McDowell route. It just seems like in the push for light rail in every community, other modes are completely ignored. BRT in that corridor (and Fountainhead/AZ Mills) would at least provide a quicker and cheaper mass transit option which is becoming more and more important as downtown urbanizes. By all means, plan for a future rail conversion, but work on solutions for the present.

Of course, for rail to be effective, it really needs to be built more efficiently than the starter line with fewer stops, 100% light priority, or somehow - someway - built with the capability for express trains since it inevitably is going to be used as a commuter system during peak hours.

Thanks for the review of Boston's BRT. The supporters of it seem to make quite a good sales pitch.

[Jjs5056]

On 2nd thought, I think my ideal plan would be:

1. "Arterial Bus Transit" from McDowell - Ray; a watered-down version of BRT to provide immediate access to a cost-effective mass transit option that provides a connection to LRT for northern/southern Tempe residents. This would mean using simply restriping existing ROV to include an HOV lane, giving these buses signal priority, and installing mid-grade bus stations. This corridor is likely never going to have the demand for light rail, nor does it have redevelopment opportunities along the way, so might as well just use it to provide a more efficient link to the light rail.
2. Plan for future heavy rail along the Price Corridor. Rather than trying to force a commuter solution along Rural Rd, why not plan for a true high capacity, high efficiency mode along a corridor that has major employment centers along its route from Chandler through Scottsdale? This could connect to Arterial Bus Transit at Baseline (looping around Priest to University and back to Price), University, and McDowell, and to light rail at Apache.

And, some news. An affordable housing project for veterans is planned for 8th Street/Rural in Tempe. 4 stories high, with 5 market rate 3-level live/work units. Sounds like a great project, and the live/work units will be a great addition to 8th Street as the streetscape project transforms the area.

http://documents.tempe.gov/sirepub/cache...n0qn0ao33f/1923832702252015102558595.PDF

[PHX31]

/\ Not a bad new project. I like it for that street. Speaking of the area... what's the deal with that large project at Terrace & Rural? Any news? (It has possibly been talked about recently, but I can't keep up with all of the different names of these projects.)

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

/\ Not a bad new project. I like it for that street. Speaking of the area... what's the deal with that large project at Terrace & Rural? Any news? (It has possibly been talked about recently, but I can't keep up with all of the different names of these projects.)

Actually, there hasn't been an update on that project in a good year+ unfortunately. I think it's essentially dead, which is a shame because that's prime real estate across from the transit center and could've set the trend for more of an urban feel to Rural Road/future projects.

[PHXFlyer11]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/...-bringing-regional-operations-1-000.html

They are paying Tempe $7M for naming rights on the Arts Center. Too bad this project is nowhere near the arts center. Imagine if GoDaddy, Avnet and Northern Trust were in downtown Tempe...

[HX_Guy]

Anyone catch this? Tempe is killing it these days! Too bad this couldn't have ended up being a tower somewhere by the lake.

Northern Trust bringing $95M regional operations, 1,000 jobs to Tempe

Chicago-based international bank Northern Trust, is building a $95 million, 450,000-square-foot three-building regional operations center in Tempe.

The Tempe City Council is getting ready to consider a package deal from Northern Trust that brings 1,000 jobs paying an average of $82,000 to the city's Discovery Business Campus at Elliot Road and Loop 101.

A formal announcement is scheduled for Friday morning.

The council has the development agreement on its agenda for Feb. 26. Part of the deal is a $7.3 million government property lease excise tax (GPLET), which the bank will turn around and use to buy naming rights to the Tempe Center for the Performing Arts for 20 years.

Northern Trust, which has branches in Phoenix, Scottsdale and Tucson, will start construction on the first half of a 150,000-square-foot building next month in the Wentworth Property Co. 135-acre development. The four-story modernistic building was designed by Davis in Tempe.

With the first portion of the offices completed in 2016, Northern Trust is required to complete the second half of the building by April 2017. The second 150,000-square-foot building and an associated parking garage is slated for construction in 2018 with the final building to be occupied before March, 2022.

A Northern Trust spokesperson said that the regional operations center will house front, middle and back office positions, but confirmed that the average salaries would meet the $82,000 the city council expects.

Tempe, for its part, is waiving up to $250,000 in expedited plan review fees. The city is rebating fees the developer will pay, but withholding payment until leasing documents are executed.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/...-bringing-regional-operations-1-000.html

[Jjs5056]

Yea, that stupid Discovery Campus is like the Tempe Marketplace of the office market in Tempe. For a city that talks so much about sustainability and wanting to improve its urban downtown, it sure has no problem letting suburban developments get built and leach off that core.

A tower on Ash/3rd would have looked great, next to US Airways and the future Rio+Mill tower, and close to the TCA that they're naming.

[Spitfiredude]

Why are they going to have this company have naming rights for TCA. At the very least, it could have been a DT Tempe tenant (State Farm or American or First Solar, etc.). This development in Discovery is what would have been perfect at Liberty. Not very urban, but still mid-rise height. This could have been a 15-20 story building in Downtown Tempe or along the lake...or 2-3 8-12 story buildings in a master planned development along the lake.

On the bright side, the average salary is $83k. That's pretty good for 1000 jobs. It seems the valley is slowly, but surely beginning to see a trend in higher end jobs. Tempe is at the forefront of this, hopefully downtown Phoenix will follow suite soon...

[TempeSilverFox]

As promised, here are some shots of the Hannover Apartments. I asked one of the construction workers when it was supposed to be done and he replied by July!

[IMG][/IMG]

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Anyone catch this? Tempe is killing it these days! Too bad this couldn't have ended up being a tower somewhere by the lake.



http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/...-bringing-regional-operations-1-000.html

This explains why the dirt started moving here a few weeks ago, I am at Discovery in the State Farm Offices (our "temoporary" location one of four) its nice to see big companies move here but I am still disapointed that Downtown cant get some of this improvement.

It sucks that all of the Buisness locate at Scottsdale Airpark or the Price Corridor.

Jobs are good dont get me wrong but I thought Stanton would do a better job getting things downtown.

Imagine iff all this officepace had been built/leased downtown, State Farm, Paypal, USAA, Discover,

All of these companies have huge opperations here but locate in suburban locations we would be talking about multiple 20+ story towers in the core if they all had located there.