VIA Rail

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by J81

The times between Moncton and Halifax by bus and train are identical at 4hours so your first claim is debunked. It does not in fact take “significantly” longer than the bus. The speeds on these subdivisions range from 45mph through wentworth valley up to Londonderry to as high as 75mph on the Bedford sub between Truro and brookfield and Alton to Shubie. So hardly meandering as you say. Next up, nobody cares about having a station in Dartmouth. There is no reason to consider having s train station in Dartmouth. If you would rather spend 4hrs on a bus than a train well thats your choice but as far as comfort goes you cannot beat the train.

The sidings on both the Bedford and Springhill subs are about 15 minutes apart so in the odd event of a meet with a freight train it doesnt usually slow you down that much. There are currently 2 freight trains in each direction between Halifax and Moncton. They mainly run between 2000 at night and 1000 the next day. The passenger train doesn’t normally run during those hours unless something drastic happens. So meeting freight trains is rarely an issue.

So with this newfound knowledge are you still of the opinion that the bus is faster and better than the train?

This is not "new found knowledge" and what i experienced were direct observations, not "opinions". I've personally driven as well as taken both the bus and the train on the route numerous times and regardless of their timetables claim, the train takes significantly longer. While I usually only go as far as Amherst, that's still 3/4 of the route so unless the bus loses a huge amount of time on that last little stretch, it is indeed notably faster. And each time I've taken the train it's had to stop for freight trains at least once. Perhaps there are recent bus timetable changes that make it slower since I haven't done that in the last year or so but you're response makes it sound like I haven't lived in the region my entire life and don't have first hand experience with all three modes.

But to answer your question, no your response does not change anything about what i observed.

[J81]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

This is not "new found knowledge" and what i experienced were direct observations, not "opinions". I've personally driven as well as taken both the bus and the train on the route numerous times and regardless of their timetables claim, the train takes significantly longer. While I usually only go as far as Amherst, that's still 3/4 of the route so unless the bus loses a huge amount of time on that last little stretch, it is indeed notably faster. And each time I've taken the train it's had to stop for freight trains at least once. Perhaps there are recent bus timetable changes that make it slower since I haven't done that in the last year or so but you're response makes it sound like I haven't lived in the region my entire life and don't have first hand experience with all three modes.

But to answer your question, no your response does not change anything about what i observed.

Well you can actually track the train on VIA TSI and see for yourself. The train to Halifax regularly makes the trip from Moncton to Halifax in less than 4 hours and you absolutely cannot do that on a bus. No doubt you have been on a train that has suffered delays either due to heat restrictions or some other unforeseen situation that affects the normal operation which could also happen on the bus as well. Having said that, the train is not significantly slower than the bus as you claimed and it is most definitely not nearly as comfortable.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by J81

Well you can actually track the train on VIA TSI and see for yourself. The train to Halifax regularly makes the trip from Moncton to Halifax in less than 4 hours and you absolutely cannot do that on a bus. No doubt you have been on a train that has suffered delays either due to heat restrictions or some other unforeseen situation that affects the normal operation which could also happen on the bus as well. Having said that, the train is not significantly slower than the bus as you claimed and it is most definitely not nearly as comfortable.

After your condescending reply, I actually just looked up the timetable to see if there has been some significant changes since I last rode. The VIA rail website has the trip from Halifax - Amherst at it shows the trip at 3:05 and the trip from Halifax to Moncton at 4:17. Meanwhile the trip times provided by the Maritime Bus website are 3:45 Dartmouth - Moncton and 2:30 Dartmouth to Amherst. In both cases the train is over 1/2 longer than the bus. Maybe your definition of significant is different than mine, but for me that absolutely is significant for trips of that length, especially considering that driving to Amherst takes just 2 hours, or about 2:40 to Moncton so the bus is already a time penalty.

This also helps to address your claim that nobody cares about having a departure from Dartmouth. There are tens of thousands of people including me for whom having to go all the way across the harbour and deep into downtown adds extra time and hassle, especially if you have baggage. And the train having to go all the way around the south and and then around Bedford basin probably adds extra time as well. Plus, several of the delays I experienced on the train were within the metro area including along the basin and into the rail cut. Some of it was likely from freight shunting operations rather than a fully arranged freight consist making a trip.

[Nouvellecosse]

The frustrating part is that I've been a train enthusiast ever since I was a kid and kept wanting to try the train again in case the delays were just flukes. And maybe some of it was since a couple of the trips took longer than the scheduled times I saw on the website. But eventually I gave up and had to accept that a long distance train on slow, freight dominated track just isn't that practical for shorter distance even though I'd much rather be on a train than on a bus.

[J81]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

After your condescending reply, I actually just looked up the timetable to see if there has been some significant changes since I last rode. The VIA rail website has the trip from Halifax - Amherst at it shows the trip at 3:05 and the trip from Halifax to Moncton at 4:17. Meanwhile the trip times provided by the Maritime Bus website are 3:45 Dartmouth - Moncton and 2:30 Dartmouth to Amherst. In both cases the train is over 1/2 longer than the bus. Maybe your definition of significant is different than mine, but for me that absolutely is significant for trips of that length, especially considering that driving to Amherst takes just 2 hours, or about 2:40 to Moncton so the bus is already a time penalty.

This also helps to address your claim that nobody cares about having a departure from Dartmouth. There are tens of thousands of people including me for whom having to go all the way across the harbour and deep into downtown adds extra time and hassle, especially if you have baggage. And the train having to go all the way around the south and and then around Bedford basin probably adds extra time as well. Plus, several of the delays I experienced on the train were within the metro area including along the basin and into the rail cut. Some of it was likely from freight shunting operations rather than a fully arranged freight consist making a trip.

What was condescending about my reply?

A few posts back you claimed that timetable times dont matter and yet now you want to quote them as the bible and you quote Dartmouth to Moncton and not Halifax to Moncton which is what im talking about. But since we’re talking about the timetable times, what you see on the VIA website is the schedule with time built in for meeting the opposite direction VIA train which no longer happens since the service only operates 3 days a week. 99.8% of the time train 15 out of Halifax does not meet any trains enroute to Moncton and routinely arrives between 1700-1705. Thats a 4-4:05 minute trip. Now go look at the bus schedule from Halifax ( not Dartmouth ) There hasnt been a passenger train on the Dartmouth sub in decades. Infact it might be closer to 100 years. It’s incredibly slow at 25mph for most and 15mph for the rest. So it will never happen.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by J81

What was condescending about my reply?

A few posts back you claimed that timetable times dont matter and yet now you want to quote them as the bible and you quote Dartmouth to Moncton and not Halifax to Moncton which is what im talking about. But since we’re talking about the timetable times, what you see on the VIA website is the schedule with time built in for meeting the opposite direction VIA train which no longer happens since the service only operates 3 days a week. 99.8% of the time train 15 out of Halifax does not meet any trains enroute to Moncton and routinely arrives between 1700-1705. Thats a 4-4:05 minute trip. Now go look at the bus schedule from Halifax ( not Dartmouth ) There hasnt been a passenger train on the Dartmouth sub in decades. Infact it might be closer to 100 years. It’s incredibly slow at 25mph for most and 15mph for the rest. So it will never happen.

The timetable isn't useful if it's wrong. It doesn't change the actual trip times that people experience which is what matters. I already knew how much time each mode took by using them, so the fact that the timetable does show reflect this difference means the times you quoted couldn't have come from there. It's true that the schedule isn't that reliable without knowing what the on-time reliability rate is, but in my experience we can generally assume that when it isn't reliable it's pretty much always going to be slower rather than faster. And with the train, I've experienced more delays beyond the schedule than with the bus.

And why would I only compare trips from the Halifax side when the bus offers both and we're comparing the bus and the train? If one offers something the other doesn't, that's important for any comparison. Not not only does it make more sense to take the bus from Dartmouth for everyone in Dartmouth, Cole Harbour, the Prestons, etc. which is is a good 1/3 of the metro area, but it would even make sense for a lot of people on the Halifax side. It would be quicker and easier to just take a transit bus across the bridge than to deep downtown. For instance, according to Google maps, it's one minute quicker to take transit from Mumford Terminal (the main bus hub on the Halifax side) to the Dartmouth Maritime bus stop than the Halifax stop. So that means it's both departure points are roughly equal for people in Spryfield, Clayton Park, Fairview, as well. And it's also faster to get to the Dartmouth stop from Bedford/Sackville because of the fast 87 route.

But even if it did take slightly longer to get there, you'd save time not having to re-trace your steps after getting on the intercity bus. When I checked the schedule, Maritime bus quotes it as being 2:50 from Halifax to Amherst, so still 15 minutes shorter than the train, but leaving from Dartmouth is 35 min quicker than the train. So even if there was only a bus stop in Dartmouth and none in Halifax, nearly everyone would still a have shorter overall trip on the bus since there are few (if any?) places from where it would take 35 minutes longer to get to the Dartmouth stop than to the Halifax stop.

As far as why the first reply was condescending, claiming to "debunk" something someone said is very accusatory, basically claiming the info they provided is "bunk". It's generally best to discuss where each person got their info and determine why two data points don't agree, then determine if one source is better than the other. Without doing that, to then expect someone to immediately accept your info over their own without offering them any justification is condescending because it assumes you're just somehow a fundamentally more competent information source then them. Not that important but just seemed very weird...

[someone123]

4 hours by bus or train for Halifax-Moncton is bad and not competitive with driving at all. The distance is about 220 km (185 km as the crow flies, but with the Minas Basin in the middle).

In the statistics thread we saw the Halifax area is around 550,000 and Moncton around 250,000. Truro is about 50,000 and there are other towns along the way plus it is a "backbone" route for a region with 2.5 million people or so. It's not exactly Tokyo-Osaka but in a lot of countries a corridor like this would have decent intercity public transport options.

[Taeolas]

Yeah, that's what I was pointing out in various Transit threads; Transit options in the Maritimes are pitiful and need significant investment. Due to how Via and MaritimeBus schedule, our options are basically "drive yourself" or "get a plane".

Via only runs 3x weekly (I think), and Maritime Bus only runs once a day between Moncton and Halifax. For the two biggest communities in the region as noted, that's a pitiful connection. The fact that it is a 4 hour trip by either mode is even more pitiful, considering by driving you can do it in 2.5 hours or so.

Maritime Bus should really have Express routes between Moncton, SJ, Freddy and Halifax, with few/no stops, at least 2x a day each direction, along with the daily milkrun that does more stops. (Moncton to Halifax express maybe should stop in Sackville and Truro and Dartmouth but that would be about it).

Similarly we really should have daily PAX rail service between Moncton and Halifax at comparable highway speeds (ie 2.5-3h trips at most). (And similar between SJ and Moncton).

Sadly, there doesn't seem to be any real push for it, not from Ottawa, nor from the Provinces, so our options continue to languish forgotten in the basement.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Similarly we really should have daily PAX rail service between Moncton and Halifax at comparable highway speeds (ie 2.5-3h trips at most). (And similar between SJ and Moncton).

NS and NB should do a study looking at upgrades for the corridor (twinning, sidings, better downtown and airport connections, remove at-grade crossings, use smaller modern trains designed for shorter trips), what the costs would be like to get the trains running at higher speeds like 125 or 150 km/h, and what the benefits for freight in the region might be. Maybe they could get CN to agree to more passenger trains by offering to fund capital improvements.

There would be a payoff to significantly beating car travel times and that'll get easier as congestion gets worse around both ends of the route. If driving takes 2.5 hours and the train takes 2 hours the train will be a default option for a lot of people.

The train could also connect to the Mill Cove ferry at the Halifax end which would go directly downtown.

[J81]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The timetable isn't useful if it's wrong. It doesn't change the actual trip times that people experience which is what matters. I already knew how much time each mode took by using them, so the fact that the timetable does show reflect this difference means the times you quoted couldn't have come from there. It's true that the schedule isn't that reliable without knowing what the on-time reliability rate is, but in my experience we can generally assume that when it isn't reliable it's pretty much always going to be slower rather than faster. And with the train, I've experienced more delays beyond the schedule than with the bus.

And why would I only compare trips from the Halifax side when the bus offers both and we're comparing the bus and the train? If one offers something the other doesn't, that's important for any comparison. Not not only does it make more sense to take the bus from Dartmouth for everyone in Dartmouth, Cole Harbour, the Prestons, etc. which is is a good 1/3 of the metro area, but it would even make sense for a lot of people on the Halifax side. It would be quicker and easier to just take a transit bus across the bridge than to deep downtown. For instance, according to Google maps, it's one minute quicker to take transit from Mumford Terminal (the main bus hub on the Halifax side) to the Dartmouth Maritime bus stop than the Halifax stop. So that means it's both departure points are roughly equal for people in Spryfield, Clayton Park, Fairview, as well. And it's also faster to get to the Dartmouth stop from Bedford/Sackville because of the fast 87 route.

But even if it did take slightly longer to get there, you'd save time not having to re-trace your steps after getting on the intercity bus. When I checked the schedule, Maritime bus quotes it as being 2:50 from Halifax to Amherst, so still 15 minutes shorter than the train, but leaving from Dartmouth is 35 min quicker than the train. So even if there was only a bus stop in Dartmouth and none in Halifax, nearly everyone would still a have shorter overall trip on the bus since there are few (if any?) places from where it would take 35 minutes longer to get to the Dartmouth stop than to the Halifax stop.

As far as why the first reply was condescending, claiming to "debunk" something someone said is very accusatory, basically claiming the info they provided is "bunk". It's generally best to discuss where each person got their info and determine why two data points don't agree, then determine if one source is better than the other. Without doing that, to then expect someone to immediately accept your info over their own without offering them any justification is condescending because it assumes you're just somehow a fundamentally more competent information source then them. Not that important but just seemed very weird...

The difference here is you have a small spattering of experience as a passenger whereas i do it everyday as an employee. So what you may have experienced in the past isnt what i experience as the norm. So yes in fact i do have fundamentally more competent information than you do. You claimed that the trip times from Halifax to Moncton were significantly longer by train than bus when they arent as i point out. Youre the one comparing the times from Dartmouth-Moncton by bus to Halifax-Moncton by train when its not a legit comparison as Dartmouth is Obviously closer. My whole point is that youre statement is categorically false. It is not significantly longer by train than by bus. 10 minutes isnt much of a difference and the majority of people would prefer the comfort of a train vs a bus if the prices were similar even if it was just 10 minutes faster by bus.

Having said that I acknowledge your point that the train is really only convenient for people in the immediate vicinity of the stations along the route and agree with you. Thats not something that can be changed so it is what it is and that is the case in the majority of communities in North America at least.

[someone123]

I'm a little skeptical of the 99.8% on time VIA claim as well since ~100% of my interactions with that train have involved some kind of delay (I recall a pretty major multi-hour delay for me one time). It's possible I just saw a (1 - 0.998)^6 event.

Accessibility of stations can go up with better transit and has gone up with ridesharing. I'm not sure if Moncton has Uber/Lyft? But I think Halifax (and YHZ) is the main car-free destination in the region, and it already more or less has major city level congestion that is unlikely to go away.

[J81]

Originally Posted by someone123

4 hours by bus or train for Halifax-Moncton is bad and not competitive with driving at all. The distance is about 220 km (185 km as the crow flies, but with the Minas Basin in the middle).

In the statistics thread we saw the Halifax area is around 550,000 and Moncton around 250,000. Truro is about 50,000 and there are other towns along the way plus it is a "backbone" route for a region with 2.5 million people or so. It's not exactly Tokyo-Osaka but in a lot of countries a corridor like this would have decent intercity public transport options.

Actually its 190 miles (304km) by rail from Halifax station to Moncton station. 64 miles on the Bedford sub and 125 miles on the Springhill sub ( i left the decimal points out because i cant remember exactly what they are ). So 4 hrs including stops at Truro ( usually 7-8 mins ) Amherst ( 2-8 minutes depending on how many stops we make as the platform isnt long enough to spot the whole train ) and the same goes for Sackville. The problem with the argument from train enthusiasts that the train should be faster is that they really have no idea how rail infrastructure works or how a train even works. You cant zip around in a train like you can in a car. It takes a mile to slow down from 75mph to 10mph and it takes even longer to get from 10mph to 75mph. You cant sail through these towns at 75mph either like you can in your car as you bypass them completely. You can but the town has to be on board and there has to be criteria followed ( not my department so not entirely sure what exactly needs to happen for that to be possible ) Every town has a speed restriction through them. 30 for Sackville and Amherst and 10 for Truro. Theyre currently upgrading the crossing circuitry and signals in Truro so hopefully that will lead to an increase in speed through town to maybe 30mph but thats still only going to shave off a few minutes. The track itself is in good shape and there are no temporary speed restrictions. So not much can be done about that. Besides 55-75mph is pretty reasonable for the type of terrain that line runs through. But this idea that the train has to be faster than the car between point A and B in order to be useful is ridiculous IMO and part of the problem. The other problem is its only 3X per week and that makes it inconvenient for most people and to me that is the biggest problem by far. But hopefully with new equipment that will change and we can get it back to daily.

[J81]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm a little skeptical of the 99.8% on time VIA claim as well since ~100% of my interactions with that train have involved some kind of delay (I recall a pretty major multi-hour delay for me one time). It's possible I just saw a (1 - 0.998)^6 event.

Accessibility of stations can go up with better transit and has gone up with ridesharing. I'm not sure if Moncton has Uber/Lyft? But I think Halifax (and YHZ) is the main car-free destination in the region, and it already more or less has major city level congestion that is unlikely to go away.

I said on the Halifax to Moncton section. Going the opposite way it is 99.8% late. So yes you probably did experience a significant delay as that is the norm. You can thank CN and their lack of investment in the Newcastle sub for that. It currently takes about 3 hrs from Campbellton to Bathurst. Its 60 miles lol. Its almost Faster to ride your bicycle

[someone123]

Originally Posted by J81

The problem with the argument from train enthusiasts that the train should be faster is that they really have no idea how rail infrastructure works or how a train even works. You cant zip around in a train like you can in a car. It takes a mile to slow down from 75mph to 10mph and it takes even longer to get from 10mph to 75mph.

I would imagine lots of SSPers have been on trains in Europe or Asia and seen them perform much better than VIA. The Maritimes won't be getting high-end trains but there's a wide spectrum between that and the current VIA trains used on that route.

I wonder how much of the difference between Canada and countries with better service is consistent gradual upgrading over time. The cost per year of upgrading to a good quality rail corridor through Truro during the 1880-2020 timeframe would have been very low. And traffic there is so light that closing a street down once in a while to build a bridge isn't a big deal. We basically gave up on rail around the 80's but now with the population exploding (Moncton growing at 6% per year, so any medium-term infrastructure project has to be built for a larger city) and congestion worsening with little appetite for road building in existing urban areas that decision isn't looking so great.

NS is considering spending multiple billions on the 102 corridor around Halifax. I wonder how that compares to money spent on transit, freight (to cut truck traffic; there's a plan to build an inland rail terminal), and intercity passenger rail. For the same budget you could do streetcars with some dedicated ROWs and lots of rail upgrades.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by J81

The difference here is you have a small spattering of experience as a passenger whereas i do it everyday as an employee. So what you may have experienced in the past isnt what i experience as the norm. So yes in fact i do have fundamentally more competent information than you do. You claimed that the trip times from Halifax to Moncton were significantly longer by train than bus when they arent as i point out. Youre the one comparing the times from Dartmouth-Moncton by bus to Halifax-Moncton by train when its not a legit comparison as Dartmouth is Obviously closer. My whole point is that youre statement is categorically false. It is not significantly longer by train than by bus. 10 minutes isnt much of a difference and the majority of people would prefer the comfort of a train vs a bus if the prices were similar even if it was just 10 minutes faster by bus.

Having said that I acknowledge your point that the train is really only convenient for people in the immediate vicinity of the stations along the route and agree with you. Thats not something that can be changed so it is what it is and that is the case in the majority of communities in North America at least.

You never mentioned anything about being an employee in this exchange until just now so there was no indication where your counter information came from.

That said, when i search the scheduled time just for Halifax to Truro and Truro to Amherst segments, the train is actually faster than the bus from Halifax - Truro while the segment from Truro to Amherst is 34 min longer. So the extra 1/2 hr isn't from the Halifax station being farther. The longer distance is made up by the fact that the bus stops in Dartmouth and has to deal with red lights and traffic between stations. What makes the trip longer is the segment from Truro - Amherst which is over 1/2 hr longer on the train. So yes, the train route itself being slower in that section is what adds the extra time, not that the bus leaves from Dartmouth. Leaving from Dartmouth just makes the overall trip time shorter for those who can get to that stop faster.

And regardless, even if it was shorter due to the Dartmouth departure point being closer, I don't see how using Dartmouth for the comparison is somehow invalid. Halifax is a single city with two bus departure points and anyone is free to choose either one. And the Dartmouth one is closer or equally close for a large portion of people. And it's the passenger experience that's relevant here; it isn't about trying to be fair to different modes and place them on equal footing since a passenger has no reason to do that as part of their journey. No one in their right mind is going to say, "Well my overall trip will take 1/2 hr longer if I leave on the train from the Halifax side, but I'll force myself to do it anyway since it's unfair to the train to take the bus from Dartmouth." No, as members of the traveling public we're going to choose whatever option works best so if you want to compare the options you compare the best of each. But as the schedule shows, it's the train route itself that's slower.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J81

It is not significantly longer by train than by bus. 10 minutes isnt much of a difference and the majority of people would prefer the comfort of a train vs a bus if the prices were similar even if it was just 10 minutes faster by bus.

At that point, other factors come in to play. Not just comfort. Frequency and ease of access to the station being big ones. But also the time of departure. For example, 5 departures per day would be useless if that were all in the middle of the night.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by someone123

I wonder how much of the difference between Canada and countries with better service is consistent gradual upgrading over time.

This has literally found to be the difference maker between low cost developed world jurisdictions like Spain. They have a program of constant development. Not only does it improve infrastructure
But it improves their skills and preserves competency in their workforce. To the point where they now sell that expertise to laggards like us.

[DirectionNorth]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

At that point, other factors come in to play. Not just comfort. Frequency and ease of access to the station being big ones. But also the time of departure. For example, 5 departures per day would be useless if that were all in the middle of the night.

I don't think anyone is proposing a train that runs in the middle of the night, not if there's upgrades to CN track/bypasses.

--------------------------
With intercity rail in general, the only province with any leadership on this at all is Ontario (with ONR and GO expansion), and our "leadership" is at such a low standard that you could find it in an archaeological dig. Our provinces really should be shaming the federal government into providing funding by proposing projects and funding some of them, but as always, they just sit and wait and blame Ottawa to try and get them to pay for 100% of project costs.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by DirectionNorth

I don't think anyone is proposing a train that runs in the middle of the night, not if there's upgrades to CN track/bypasses.

While he was just using an extreme example to make a wider point, these super long routes that take over a day from origin to destination actually have points along the line where they literally stop in the middle of the night. Like Riviere-du-Loup for instance where the trip from Halifax to Montreal stops at 3:48am.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

While he was just using an extreme example to make a wider point, these super long routes that take over a day from origin to destination actually have points along the line where they literally stop in the middle of the night. Like Riviere-du-Loup for instance where the trip from Halifax to Montreal stops at 3:48am.

Caught that one a few times back in my University days. I'd go home to Woodstock between terms sometimes, and a few times my parents ended up doing the run up to Riviere du Loup for the 3AM trains (coming and going) back to Ottawa or Waterloo.

This was back before the TCH was as twinned as it was now (I think the northern NB parts were under construction back then or planned out at least).

Granted the bus wasn't much better. The Moncton to QC bus had a similar late night stop in RdL as well, so if you tried to take that instead you were still screwed.