Gas Prices

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The BCUC will look at why the refining profit margins are far greater in British Columbia compared to other jurisdictions in Canada. The B.C. government says the margins for Vancouver are more than double the Canadian average... (bold mine)

https://globalnews.ca/news/5250295/premi...-investigate-record-breaking-gas-prices/

...hows that for a West coast echo.

[cabotp]

While this is purely my personal opinion and it is not based on any true factors.

I feel the gas companies are gouging us by penny pinching. In that every year the price of gas will increase at this time of year. But it will be a little more expensive than compared to previous year. It would appear the oil companies will set a new high each year and they will see how we respond as consumers to those prices. So if we keep buying at the new high. Then next year they give us a new high.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The decision to close those refineries was that of the Alberta-based companies alone. There was no environmental pressure, just a desire on their part to squeeze more money out of British Columbians.

Menawhile the NDP governemnt announces to day the BC Utilities Commission will take a look at gas price gouging:

..“We need an independent arbiter to lay out to the public how we got here. A one cent increase in the gas tax should not translate to a 40 cent increase to the cost of a litre of gasoline,” Horgan said.

The BCUC will look at why the refining profit margins are far greater in British Columbia compared to other jurisdictions in Canada. The B.C. government says the margins for Vancouver are more than double the Canadian average... (bold mine)

https://globalnews.ca/news/5250295/premi...-investigate-record-breaking-gas-prices/

The decision to close the tiny refineries when Trans Mountain was built was due to pure economics; those tiny refineries could not hope to compete with the larger refineries in Alberta on cost, as those Albertan refineries have the production scale to drive down the per barrel cost.

On top of that, during the late 1970's to early 1980's, vehicle fuel economy sharply increased, which curbed the demand for petroleum products and resulted in a substantial surplus of refining capacity. The spare capacity resulted in increased competition among refiners, which further eroded refining margins. Less efficient, smaller refiners were closed, sometimes in favour of new larger facilities. Add in the weak economic conditions in the 1980's, putting pressure on the industry to rationalize their operations, resulting in a significant number of refinery closures:

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/crude-petroleum/4561

Plus with the tighter environmental regulations in place, plus increased cost of construction, there hasn't been a new refinery built in Canada for decades, save for the recently opened Sturgeon refinery in Alberta, which I might add was seriously over budget and delayed.

Remember, Canada is a net exporter of refined products; there's substantially more supply of refined products in Canada than there is demand, but the supply of the refined products is not balanced across the country; the bulk of Canada's refining capacity is in Quebec and Atlantic Canada.

[WestCoastEcho]

Oh, and what if I told you that that the BC NDP cabinet already had a special review conducted for them last year to see if gasoline price gouging was taking place and it told them there was no gouging.

Don't believe me? See this FOI:

http://docs.openinfo.gov.bc.ca/Response_Package_OOP-2018-83294.pdf

Oh, and see the third page of the FOI document... two studies conducted on behalf of the provincial government in the 1990's to see if the government should be regulating fuel prices... and both studies concluded that the government should not intervene. Which party was in power at the time?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

The decision to close the tiny refineries when Trans Mountain was built was due to pure economics; those tiny refineries could not hope to compete with the larger refineries in Alberta on cost, as those Albertan refineries have the production scale to drive down the per barrel cost.

On top of that, during the late 1970's to early 1980's, vehicle fuel economy sharply increased, which curbed the demand for petroleum products and resulted in a substantial surplus of refining capacity. The spare capacity resulted in increased competition among refiners, which further eroded refining margins. Less efficient, smaller refiners were closed, sometimes in favour of new larger facilities. Add in the weak economic conditions in the 1980's, putting pressure on the industry to rationalize their operations, resulting in a significant number of refinery closures:

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/crude-petroleum/4561

Plus with the tighter environmental regulations in place, plus increased cost of construction, there hasn't been a new refinery built in Canada for decades, save for the recently opened Sturgeon refinery in Alberta, which I might add was seriously over budget and delayed.

Remember, Canada is a net exporter of refined products; there's substantially more supply of refined products in Canada than there is demand, but the supply of the refined products is not balanced across the country; the bulk of Canada's refining capacity is in Quebec and Atlantic Canada.

You're only reinforcing my point.

Those refineries weren't closed "when Transmountian was built" (1950's), they were closed in the 1990's by Suncor, Imperial Oil and Shell who decided they could make more money by closing their refineries in Vancouver and supplying our oil from Alberta. They were not hounded out by environmentalists and as far as I can see were not losing money on them. They saw an opportunity to get Best In North America margins by restricting in supply.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by whatnext

You're only reinforcing my point.

Those refineries weren't closed "when Transmountian was built" (1950's), they were closed in the 1990's by Suncor, Imperial Oil and Shell who decided they could make more money by closing their refineries in Vancouver and supplying our oil from Alberta. They were not hounded out by environmentalists and as far as I can see were not losing money on them. They saw an opportunity to get Best In North America margins by restricting in supply.

The closures happened in the early 1990's, and it does take a while to shut down a refinery; the decision to shut down would have been made in the late 1980's, right in the middle of a massive recession.

Small refineries do not have the cost advantages compared to larger refineries; smaller refineries generally only exist when there's limited ability to import refined products, such as the case in Prince George with the Husky Refinery, or they specialize in the high margin products, such as how Parkland or the Petro-Canada Lubricants facility in Mississauga, Ontario manage to exist.

In fact, BC has both of the smallest refineries in North America that produce fuel (Husky Refinery in Prince George, and the Parkland facility in Burnaby). Almost every other refinery in Canada is at least 50% bigger, with the more typical size being 3 times as big. And Canadian refineries are small fish in the world of refineries; the large Jamnagar Refinery in India produces almost 2/3's of the total capacity of Canada's entire refinery network in just one large facility.

Also, note the FOI document I've linked to. It specifically mentions that refinery and retail margins were comparable to other jurisdictions up until 2014/15. The price difference up until then could easily be attributed to transportation costs.

[whatnext]

Amazing what some incentives can do:

[IMG]tesla by whatnextyvr, on Flickr[/IMG]
(my photo)

[officedweller]

"grab a staff"


https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/military/melee/magic-staff

[WarrenC12]

I was talking to a friend who said most of the other dealers were out of EVs, except Chevy which still has a bit of Bolt inventory. At least Tesla (from a production perspective) can satisfy demand.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by officedweller

"grab a staff"


https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/military/melee/magic-staff

LOL, or worse!

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I was talking to a friend who said most of the other dealers were out of EVs, except Chevy which still has a bit of Bolt inventory. At least Tesla (from a production perspective) can satisfy demand.

Just wait until you have to replace that battery pack... $8 - 10 thousand later..

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Just wait until you have to replace that battery pack... $8 - 10 thousand later..

I think I'd worry about the reliability of the gas car more. More moving parts are going to give you more problems in the long run.

I would rather have a battery which is likely to be over engineered given it's importance, than a transmission, combustion engine, injection, fuelling and exhaust system.

Most battery systems also seem to have 8 year warranties.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I think I'd worry about the reliability of the gas car more. More moving parts are going to give you more problems in the long run.

I would rather have a battery which is likely to be over engineered given it's importance, than a transmission, combustion engine, injection, fuelling and exhaust system.

Most battery systems also seem to have 8 year warranties.

Well 8 years is nothing to hang onto a vehicle. People tend to keep their vehicles 15 to 20 years.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Well 8 years is nothing to hang onto a vehicle. People tend to keep their vehicles 15 to 20 years.

No they don't. You're lucky to have an American car run that long. German ones might but you'll spend a fortune in maintenance.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Just wait until you have to replace that battery pack... $8 - 10 thousand later..

Usually battery packs in cars last a very long time; the battery management software in car battery packs are far more sophisticated than the one in your phone.

Furthermore, car battery packs are over provisioned; for example, if the specified battery pack is rated at 75kwh, the battery may have as much as 90kwh in capacity from the factory, and the battery is allowed to gracefully degrade, eating into the over provisioned capacity.

Finally, batteries may not require a total replacement; often the entire battery pack can be opened at a service centre, and each individual battery cell can be tested and replaced as needed to restore capacity.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Usually battery packs in cars last a very long time; the battery management software in car battery packs are far more sophisticated than the one in your phone.

Furthermore, car battery packs are over provisioned; for example, if the specified battery pack is rated at 75kwh, the battery may have as much as 90kwh in capacity from the factory, and the battery is allowed to gracefully degrade, eating into the over provisioned capacity.

Finally, batteries may not require a total replacement; often the entire battery pack can be opened at a service centre, and each individual battery cell can be tested and replaced as needed to restore capacity.

Electric vehicles might serve well for shorter trips in the city but I highly doubt their ability to go long distances in a reasonable amount of time and over mountain ranges like the Coke... I want to get from Van - Kam without having to stop to refuel/recharge.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Electric vehicles might serve well for shorter trips in the city but I highly doubt their ability to go long distances in a reasonable amount of time and over mountain ranges like the Coke... I want to get from Van - Kam without having to stop to refuel/recharge.

I've driven to the Okanagan multiple times in my Tesla. I can easily get to Kamloops with range to spare, and there's a Supercharger there.

I think EVs have improved a ton in the last few years and the awareness isn't out there in the marketplace (yet).

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Electric vehicles might serve well for shorter trips in the city but I highly doubt their ability to go long distances in a reasonable amount of time and over mountain ranges like the Coke... I want to get from Van - Kam without having to stop to refuel/recharge.

Good for you, but that’s in no way common how the majority of vehicles in the Lower Mainland are used.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Good for you, but that’s in no way common how the majority of vehicles in the Lower Mainland are used.

Current EVs can definitely replace 90%+ of the ICE vehicles they are comparable to, which is just regular cars right now.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Current EVs can definitely replace 90%+ of the ICE vehicles they are comparable to, which is just regular cars right now.

Correct. The bulk of one's driving can be done with current EV's available on the market, especially if one's commute is under 40km one way per day. If you have destination charging at your workplace, even better.

It's those once in a while longer trips, or if you continuously drive during the day where EV's start falling short, unless one is driving a Tesla or a Chevy Bolt.