Calgary Condo Talk

[*Stardust*]

It's the kitchen that kills that whole floorplan. I also hate how the living room seems cut off from the rest of the unit.

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Well, I guess not in Arriva
Or Keynote:

I know a few Battistella concrete buildings don't use forced air either - by and large it seems to be the trend at this scale.

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by *Stardust*

It's the kitchen that kills that whole floorplan. I also hate how the living room seems cut off from the rest of the unit.

The kitchen is essentially the hallway... and the dining room (if you can call it that) is an afterthought.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Electrical Storm

I know a few Battistella concrete buildings don't use forced air either - by and large it seems to be the trend at this scale.

I think the prior comment about efficiency of a boiler is bang on. Water (liquid in general) carries heat better than air. That's why you can stick your hand in a hot 200 degree C oven and not get burned, yet in 100 degree C water you burn virtually immediately. What the baseboard heaters allow is for heat to efficiently be moved to where it is needed most. While historically unsightly, implementation has improved greatly, and they are needed to deal with energy issues pertaining to glass walls. Forced air fills volumes will similar heat, whereas baseboard heaters focus on the areas that really need it. The perimeter.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Electrical Storm

The kitchen is essentially the hallway... and the dining room (if you can call it that) is an afterthought.

I'm boggled with this particular floorplan. There is almost nothing in it that makes sense.

I looked at some of the other plans and many were "challenged". This building seems to have an overabundance of pillars, which doesn't help.

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by suburbia

I think the prior comment about efficiency of a boiler is bang on....Forced air fills volumes will similar heat, whereas baseboard heaters focus on the areas that really need it. The perimeter.

Yeah - I didn't read Calgarian's explanation till just now, but the explanation makes sense. My original comment was based on observation.

[Calgarian]

Forced air can still be efficient, you just have to have everything tied to a make-up air unit somewhere. If you want to have heating and cooling, then you have a fan coil connected to the MUA and a common chiller. That way individual units can be billed for the heat energy they use, don't think that can happen with a radiant heater connected to a boiler. Radiant heat is just cheaper as you install the radiant pipe instead of a fan coil or two in a unit, it's also fairly low maintenance. I lived in a building that had in floor heating as the only source of heat in the unit, it's the slowest way to heat a place, and people always mess with it so it's finnicky. THe worst thing about in floor is maintenance, you have to rip up the floor to fix a leak.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Forced air can still be efficient, you just have to have everything tied to a make-up air unit somewhere. If you want to have heating and cooling, then you have a fan coil connected to the MUA and a common chiller. That way individual units can be billed for the heat energy they use, don't think that can happen with a radiant heater connected to a boiler. Radiant heat is just cheaper as you install the radiant pipe instead of a fan coil or two in a unit, it's also fairly low maintenance. I lived in a building that had in floor heating as the only source of heat in the unit, it's the slowest way to heat a place, and people always mess with it so it's finnicky. THe worst thing about in floor is maintenance, you have to rip up the floor to fix a leak.

Which building had in floor only heating? That sounds absolutely insane to me.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Which building had in floor only heating? That sounds absolutely insane to me.

The Carrington on 11 Ave and 10 St SW. Once you figure out how to use it, it works fine, the issue is it takes about an hour to respond to the thermostat (to the point where you can feel it).

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Which building had in floor only heating? That sounds absolutely insane to me.

Most buildings with in floor heat only have in floor heat. Well, they'll probably also have force flows at the entrances, unit heaters in the parkade, and the MUAs will heat the incoming air, but the actual heating load for the building will be done through the in floor.

There isn't anything insane about it. It is an incredibly efficient way to heat a unit. It is just a different kind of heat from baseboard convection or, especially, forced air. You're essentially maintaining an appropriate temperature for everything in a unit (which is typically lower than other methods because of how we react to radiant heat) instead of trying to use air (which has practically no mass) to raise the ambient temperature of everything else. I'd take in floor over any thing else.

[geotag277]

What made it sound insane to me is that it seems it would be pretty expensive to build a building like that covering each and every unit's floor with a heating element, and on top of that it sounds like a very inefficient way of heating a room. I wonder how much energy these things use compared to baseboard?

Combined with the inevitable maintenance issues which necessitate digging into the floor, it just sounds like a terrible idea.

I can see how it could kinda sorta work, but I'm still a bit surprised entire buildings are designed that way.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by geotag277

What made it sound insane to me is that it seems it would be pretty expensive to build a building like that covering each and every unit's floor with a heating element, and on top of that it sounds like a very inefficient way of heating a room. I wonder how much energy these things use compared to baseboard?

Combined with the inevitable maintenance issues which necessitate digging into the floor, it just sounds like a terrible idea.

I can see how it could kinda sorta work, but I'm still a bit surprised entire buildings are designed that way.

It is definitely more expensive than baseboard. Wood buildings have to be framed with a second bottom plate; pulling in floor is more labour intensive than installing cab, and gypcrete must be poured. It is also better in pretty much every way. It looks better. It doesn't create problems with furniture placement. It will generally use less energy because a lower temperature will be perceived as warmer when comparing radiant to convection. As far as delivering BTUs to a unit, the rest of the system is pretty much the same. Heat is lost from a unit due to factors that have nothing to do with the source of heating and must be made up by adding an equal amount of heat to water at the boilers. Transmission losses between the mech room and the unit will be the same either way and can be minimized the same way.

There really aren't inevitable maintenance issues that would necessitate ripping up the floor. PEX, shielded from UV, just doesn't degrade over time the same way that copper does. Baseboard fin will need to be replaced during a building's lifecycle; in floor will last to the point where you can confidently pour the foundation with in floor inside it.

[geotag277]

^^^^ thanks for explaining that, it makes more sense to me now.

[flipstah]

Random question: Do open floor plans sell in the used market?

I have a 1 bdrm with an 80's galley-style kitchen. When I was renovating, I wanted to tear the wall down but it's too expensive. I was contemplating on putting a passthrough but I wussied out.

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by flipstah

Random question: Do open floor plans sell in the used market?

I have a 1 bdrm with an 80's galley-style kitchen. When I was renovating, I wanted to tear the wall down but it's too expensive. I was contemplating on putting a passthrough but I wussied out.

Based off of extensive MLS browsing... most renoed older condos do seem to emulate newer condo layouts at varying degrees of success (ie: open concept kitchen). The low ceilings are the most obvious aspect that can't be altered. Some seem to open everything up, others keep the classic closed-in galley style (with modern finishes/fixtures/appliances). Depending on the plan, it may not always be beneficial in a cost/benefit sense to open up the space.

[flipstah]

Originally Posted by Electrical Storm

Based off of extensive MLS browsing... most renoed older condos do seem to emulate newer condo layouts at varying degrees of success (ie: open concept kitchen). The low ceilings are the most obvious aspect that can't be altered. Some seem to open everything up, others keep the classic closed-in galley style (with modern finishes/fixtures/appliances). Depending on the plan, it may not always be beneficial in a cost/benefit sense to open up the space.

Interesting. I did the latter, with just sprucing up the kitchen, getting rid of the nasty old appliances, and the old backsplash. Put granite countertops and stainless steel appliances.

Here's a topic of discussion: What's your opinion on this?

A full-size refrigerator killed the counterspace and barely had any. I made the judgement call and bought the biggest undercounter fridge you can get. 30in wide but just short.



I've been living with it for ~7 months and I personally love it but I'm getting people saying that I killed the resale value doing this. It has a freezer big enough to fit probably a week's worth of meat. I did this because Co-op is just 2 blocks away from my house.

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by flipstah

Interesting. I did the latter, with just sprucing up the kitchen, getting rid of the nasty old appliances, and the old backsplash. Put granite countertops and stainless steel appliances.

Here's a topic of discussion: What's your opinion on this?

A full-size refrigerator killed the counterspace and barely had any. I made the judgement call and bought the biggest undercounter fridge you can get. 30in wide but just short.

I've been living with it for ~7 months and I personally love it but I'm getting people saying that I killed the resale value doing this. It has a freezer big enough to fit probably a week's worth of meat. I did this because Co-op is just 2 blocks away from my house.

I personally don't think you killed the resale value by putting in an undercounter fridge. It looks like you selected nicer appliances; a wide Marvel fridge and a slide in stove (Samsung?) are definitely nicer than what you see in a lot of condo renos (eg: basic builder grade Frigidaire). I wouldn't worry too much about it for now... When it comes to selling you can always figure things out from there (if your realtor thinks its a problem based on feedback from potential buyers).

[Jimby]

I think the fridge is a smart idea. Counter space is always at a premium, you can never have enough. I have no idea about re-sale.
I tore the wall down between my kitchen and dining room so instead of the kitchen being a dead-end galley there is access from both ends of the kitchen.
However it isn't completely open because there is a vent shaft that I couldn't remove so I built cabinets around it and then the rest is open counter and cooktop space.

[flipstah]

Originally Posted by Electrical Storm

I personally don't think you killed the resale value by putting in an undercounter fridge. It looks like you selected nicer appliances; a wide Marvel fridge and a slide in stove (Samsung?) are definitely nicer than what you see in a lot of condo renos (eg: basic builder grade Frigidaire). I wouldn't worry too much about it for now... When it comes to selling you can always figure things out from there (if your realtor thinks its a problem based on feedback from potential buyers).

Yeah, it's a Samsung. Majority of the renovation went to the kitchen as I cook a lot and wanted to enjoy it in my domain.

I thought I'd bring it up because I've heard a lot of arguments from my inner circle, on both sides of the coin. I'm curious what the public thinks as that's who dictates the market.

EDIT: Before and after. There's shelving on the upper part to hold a toaster oven,

Originally Posted by Jimby

I think the fridge is a smart idea. Counter space is always at a premium, you can never have enough. I have no idea about re-sale.
I tore the wall down between my kitchen and dining room so instead of the kitchen being a dead-end galley there is access from both ends of the kitchen.
However it isn't completely open because there is a vent shaft that I couldn't remove so I built cabinets around it and then the rest is open counter and cooktop space.

How much did that cost or was it DIY? I feel like I should do a pass-through but then I lose out on cabinet space.

[geotag277]

I think anyone who cooks at home will recognize you did the right thing regarding counter space. I'd much prefer more counter space to a full size fridge and fractional counter space. Unfortunately either option is "bad" for resale but I suspect buyers will recognize the value in the counter space.