[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

allnovascotia is reporting there is a delay in approval, april is now the date.

Best part of the article is Mayor Kelly is unaware of how much money the city will be responsible for of the projected 400 million dollar cost.

This was in the allnovascotia, however they indicated that the cost of the convention centre portion of the project is expected to be around $100 million. Nobody expects the city to be responsible for the office or hotel portion. I wouldn't put too much faith in these numbers; since the hotel and office would be a private investment, I don't see how it will end up being $400 - $100 million equal to $300 million. These numbers might be coming from "Save our View"

One point to make regarding residential development for this site is that there are other approved projects "on hold" in the downtown core because of a soft market. If this were residential then it would likely just be one more project "on hold". In another allnovascotia.com article, it was stated that the Salter residential/hotel project is more likely to proceed if this project proceeds since it will bring more visitors to the city.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This was in the allnovascotia, however they indicated that the cost of the convention centre portion of the project is expected to be around $100 million. Nobody expects the city to be responsible for the office or hotel portion. I wouldn't put too much faith in these numbers; since the hotel and office would be a private investment, I don't see how it will end up being $400 - $100 million equal to $300 million. These numbers might be coming from "Save our View"

One point to make regarding residential development for this site is that there are other approved projects "on hold" in the downtown core because of a soft market. If this were residential then it would likely just be one more project "on hold". In another allnovascotia.com article, it was stated that the Salter residential/hotel project is more likely to proceed if this project proceeds since it will bring more visitors to the city.

The total costs are fairly accurate considering the size of the development.

THe city/Province would not be on the hook for the full 400million, correct.

and the statement about salter street is from Mayor Kelly, not the developer, so unless Kelly knows of the personal plans of the developer then kelly is talking out of his know what.

[fenwick16]

Although I am disappointed with Mayor Kelly's lack of action on an HRM stadium, I am encouraged by his promotion of the convention/trade centre project, new central library and harbour solutions wastewater treatment system (I prefer to ignore the major glitch which isn't really the fault of HRM council).

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Although I am disappointed with Mayor Kelly's lack of action on an HRM stadium, I am encouraged by his promotion of the convention/trade centre project, new central library and harbour solutions wastewater treatment system (I prefer to ignore the major glitch which isn't really the fault of HRM council).

I agree we need all these things, but these things don't come without a cost? The money needed to pay off this infastructure will require either cuts to other areas or worse tax increases.

HRM needs to work at one thing at a time, not everyone at once.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

I agree we need all these things, but these things don't come without a cost? The money needed to pay off this infastructure will require either cuts to other areas or worse tax increases.

HRM needs to work at one thing at a time, not everyone at once.

The Harbour Solutions is basically complete and was started years ago and was talked about for decades before it started. The convention centre and library will be partly funded by the provincial and federal governments. Regarding a stadium, the city can start promoting it in the HRM, to the federal government, provincial government and private sector; set up a site selection committee; purchase land; and work on detailed construction drawings plans without spending a lot of money. I disagree with you here, if the HRM is going to prosper in the future it will have to be able to do more than one thing at a time. I said that I was disappointed that Mayor Kelly doesn't do more to promote a stadium; I didn't say that the city should start building it immediately. (Although I think that it should have been built 27 years ago so that by now the Halifax area would be part of a national sports league (CFL) and be part of the CFL history instead of talking about whether or not it can support a team).

I think that the HRM has a much more conservative approach to spending money than most jurisdictions.

[sdm]

Conventional wisdom: A stimulus for Halifax


Mon. Mar 8 - 4:54 AM
NOW IS not the most opportune time to tap the public purse for $100 million. Yet such an investment could open up a world of opportunities.

So say those who want a new world trade centre built in downtown Halifax where the Herald building once stood. Developer Rank Inc. is behind the Nova Centre project, which could cost $300 million, once you factor in private investment in the adjacent hotel, office and retail space.

The developer would build the facility to the government’s specifications and Trade Centre Ltd., a provincial Crown corporation, would operate it. But in the absence of more details about this particular venture — capital costs, operating costs, how much any of the three levels of government might invest — it’s difficult for anyone else to gauge whether the Nova Centre concept is a good deal for taxpayers. The government envelope is expected to be in the $100-million range, but it’s not yet clear what financing arrangements would be in place.

However, in purely theoretical terms, there’s no doubt a new and improved convention centre would be a significant economic catalyst for Nova Scotia.

Scott Ferguson, president of Trade Centre Limited, says Halifax is missing the boat at the moment because the WTCC doesn’t have the facilities to berth conferences of up to 2,000 delegates. (It can barely host an event half that size.)

Mr. Ferguson told The Chronicle Herald editorial board recently that at least 70 conferences have passed Halifax by in the past three years, which represents $80 million in lost business and $4 million in forgone provincial tax.

He’s convinced that with a bigger rig at its disposal, the city could successfully go fishing in the deeper waters of the fiercely competitive international convention business.

HRM is in a position to capitalize on a number of assets and trends to market itself as a viable destination: its cluster of universities and research centres, which could attract medical conferences; its geography, which puts it within reach of Europe and the U.S., and its friendliness and openness. As access to the U.S. becomes more difficult for visitors from certain countries because of heightened security protocols, Canada is viewed as more hassle-free, he says.

Even the current U.S. corporate climate works in Halifax’s favour, says convention expert Rod Cameron. After the types of excesses seen on Wall Street or at Worldcom, companies are leery about sending employees to locales that are too exotic. Halifax is a safe bet on that score.

Mr. Cameron also says the convention business seems fundamentally sound. The fact it did not sink during the economic meltdown of the past two years is significant. Nor does it seem threatened by new social trends like teleconferencing, he says. There is something about meeting other experts in your field face to face that is irreplaceable.

A new WTCC would not be as risky an investment as a football stadium, for example. It is sure to pay dividends in economic spinoffs and tax revenue. Conversely, failure to launch a new trade centre is sure to condemn HRM to backwater status.

( [email protected])

Some pretty negative comments in the blog attached to the article, albeit few in numbers, of people not wishing tax money be spent on this.

[fenwick16]

The article itself is not negative. Could you provide a link to the negative blogs.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The article itself is not negative. Could you provide a link to the negative blogs.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Editorial/1171148.html#comments

[fenwick16]

Here is one such comment:

If a new convention center is not viable without government money then a new convention center is not viable. saintsfan

These people should apply the same logic to Citadel Hill, Halifax Commons, Public Gardens ... Going by this logic, let's just build condos on the Halifax Commons so that it will be making money instead of draining money from taxpayers.

Here is another one by Bruce DeVenne (the one who almost single-handedly killed the Halifax Commonwealth Games). If he were the person running Halifax just image what a sterile uninteresting place it would be. If people like Bruce DeVenne were in charge of Halifax then how many people would be packing their bags and looking for a better place to live.

After the excesses seen on wall street you will see a decline in any and al conventions probably. The stock holders are watching and are fed up with big costly good time junkets disguised under the name of Annual Business meeting or Shareholders Meetings. The future will be in many cases inter type meetings where the people are together in a virtual meeting room and can talk, discuss issues, read and hear reports and vote on issues as if they were in the same room without the costs. The present Centre we have needed annual subsidization how much more will a larger one need? If it is so needed and so much in demand and such a great financial deal who doesn't the local business core build it. Easy it's not a sound investment it's a money loser. They'll let the taxpayer pay the bills while they reap the benefits same bunch and same story as the Commonwealth games. Bruce DeVenne

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Here is one such comment:

If a new convention center is not viable without government money then a new convention center is not viable. saintsfan

These people should apply the same logic to Citadel Hill, Halifax Commons, Public Gardens ... Going by this logic, let's just build condos on the Halifax Commons so that it will be making money instead of draining money from taxpayers.

Here is another one by Bruce DeVenne (the one who almost single-handedly killed the Halifax Commonwealth Games). If he were the person running Halifax just image what a sterile uninteresting place it would be. If people like Bruce DeVenne were in charge of Halifax then how many people would be packing their bags and looking for a better place to live.

After the excesses seen on wall street you will see a decline in any and al conventions probably. The stock holders are watching and are fed up with big costly good time junkets disguised under the name of Annual Business meeting or Shareholders Meetings. The future will be in many cases inter type meetings where the people are together in a virtual meeting room and can talk, discuss issues, read and hear reports and vote on issues as if they were in the same room without the costs. The present Centre we have needed annual subsidization how much more will a larger one need? If it is so needed and so much in demand and such a great financial deal who doesn't the local business core build it. Easy it's not a sound investment it's a money loser. They'll let the taxpayer pay the bills while they reap the benefits same bunch and same story as the Commonwealth games. Bruce DeVenne

I SO love when people make statements of opinion as "fact".

Other than being a city councillor, what is this guys background?
It is clear that whatever it is it didn't involve a profession that travelled to conferences.

FACTS are that, even through the recession, true "conferences" did not decrease, as was recently reported in the Globe & Mail. I regularly attend conferences as part of my profession, and even from my 1st person perspective I have not seen at those conferences a decrease in attendance.

Secondly, I frickin hate when people throw out the term "they". Who precisely is the "they" that he claims with disdain will profit from operating the conference centre?

Thirdly, the so-called "junkets" that he refers to represent a small fraction of the large scale conference that such an expanded centre would try and attract.

And lastly, it is always unfair on any side of a debate to report an incomplete financial picture. People like him will focus 100% on "costs" because that maximizes the scary factor. This conveniently ignores the other side of the ledger. The ONLY fair financial evaluation is to look at costs and revenues combined, and examine the balance (which he does not do, because that wouldn't sound quite as scary).

As far as I can tell from looking at this guys so-called CV, he is a professional "again everything" guy. He quite happily lists all the things he has campaigned against, as if he is some champion of the little guy. Real leaders have positive ideas of their own. Here's a novel thought Bruce, why don't you get one of your own for once, rather than just opposing everyone elses.

[Keith P.]

Bruce Devenne is NOT a city councillor, thank god. He ran last time and got about 3 votes.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Bruce Devenne is NOT a city councillor, thank god. He ran last time and got about 3 votes.

Ah ok... Thank god.
One of the links that I found was the coast article about councillors... but that must have been the issue they do on people who are running.
My mistake... again, Thank god. LOL

Having said that... how the heck does this guy have so much apparent weight? There are boatloads of newspaper articles about this wingnut and his calls for police investigations into provincial spending etc etc. Amazing how much ink the CH gives to people with lots of time on their hands, few brain cells, and no actual authority.

[Dmajackson]

Like steak, razing was well done
Midtown Tavern’s former home levelled to make way for new convention centre
By BILL POWER Business Reporter
Fri. Mar 12 - 4:53 AM

The old Midtown Tavern building offered little resistance Thursday as a wrecking crew moved in early in the morning and razed it by noon.

A massive shovel from an over-sized backhoe slapped through the abandoned structure at the corner of Grafton and Prince streets, as if its aged wooden components were made of matchsticks.

There was an especially poignant moment as the backhoe operator seemed to pause, ever so briefly, as the machine’s big shovel came up against the green-backed neon "Tavern" sign that has identified the corner since 1949.

"Oh, my," was the only reaction Eileen Heaslip of Liverpool could muster at this moment.

The backhoe’s engine suddenly rumbled back to life and the entire section of wall holding the neon sign was pushed aside like a pile of kindling.

The little bit of Halifax history was pushed efficiently into a mound of rubble accumulating at the demolition site.

"With every bit of lost neon goes a little bit of lost history. I cannot believe they did not save that sign," said Heaslip.

The fall of the old sign was mourned by observer Kevin Nuggent of Halifax.

"It was a landmark for sure. It’s really a shame to see it come down," he said.

Several people who were just passing by said they felt compelled to stop and watch. A couple of people complained about all the dust and moved on.

As the building finally became nothing but a memory, a handful of observers agreed there was a distinct scent of deep-fried pepperoni and honey-mustard sauce in the air when the wind blew from just the right direction.

The Midtown Tavern and Grill reopened in new digs in August last year, just down the block from the original location at 1685 Grafton St., across the street from the former Chronicle Herald building.

Demolition of the Chronicle Herald building was also moving quickly on Thursday. The demolition crew was dismantling the former editorial department, which was on the third floor of the old building, as the Midtown tumbled down.

Both properties, owned by Joe Ramia’s Argyle Developments, are being demolished to make way for a new convention centre.

The Midtown now shares space with Boomers Lounge at 1725 Grafton St. The Chronicle Herald has relocated to 2717 Joseph Howe Drive.

( [email protected] )

[spaustin]

hmm I'm surprised they didn't save the sign too. Seems somewhat short-sighted. The Economy Shoeshop's sign after all, is recycled. I remember seeing old photos where it was down on Barrington near the corner of Duke. Even if they weren't going to save the Tavern sign to hang outside the relocated Midtown, it could have still gone on a wall inside their new digs. A missed opportunity.

[fenwick16]

It would have been good to keep the sign. I was at the Midtown to eat a few times over 30 years ago.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by spaustin

hmm I'm surprised they didn't save the sign too. Seems somewhat short-sighted. The Economy Shoeshop's sign after all, is recycled. I remember seeing old photos where it was down on Barrington near the corner of Duke. Even if they weren't going to save the Tavern sign to hang outside the relocated Midtown, it could have still gone on a wall inside their new digs. A missed opportunity.

This town is rampant with shortsigtedness. They should have auctioned off the sign and given the money to minor sport. This is where we have no leadership in the mayor.....that should have been his idea. Even the demolition company should have had enough sense to save it!!

[Aya_Akai]

I'll post this to get it started from when I was over today..



few more to come..

[Keith P.]

Left-wing NDPer columnist Ralph Surrette once again produces more nonsense opposing the idea of a new CC in Halifax in Saturday's Herald:

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1171886.html

The coalition fighting the Halifax project in its present form have some other arguments — at up to 18 floors, it will block part of the view planes to Halifax Harbour; the need for the extra office space going with it is questionable; and there’s the murkiness of the P3 process with its known hazards to the public purse.

This last is a key point. The whole thing is top secret, although the go-ahead is said to be imminent. The present government has picked this up from the previous one, apparently without questioning its assumptions.

But if $100 million or more is going into this in such unpromising economic conditions, nothing is more urgent than to question it. Indeed, I’m reminded of the struggle over bringing the Commonwealth Games to Halifax back in 2007 — it took a pitched battle against determinedly secretive promoters to finally wring out the staggering fact that the "$200 million" Games would cost closer to $2 billion.

The minister in charge is Bill Estabrooks. Bill, you are the NDP. Act like it. Lift the veil on this thing and let it be ventilated properly in the light of day. If not, what I propose is a good public uproar.

It's gonna be a long time to the next provincial election with attitudes like this...

[fenwick16]

This was posted today in the Chronicle Herald. I hope that anyone in support of this proposal will post your comments at http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1171886.html . There is a place at the bottom for comments. I believe that this is just another opponent to tall buildings since he mentions the height near the end of his story. All his facts are based on the US which is in the middle of a severe recession.

He also throws in a statement on how a group was able to get together and stop the Commonwealth Games. While other cities are doing all that they can to promote their cities these groups are doing all that they can to limit growth.

The convention centre illusion: We need to talk

RALPH SURETTE
Sat. Mar 13 - 4:54 AM




WHOA. About this proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax that could cost $100 million in taxpayer dollars (more, if experience elsewhere serves): We need to talk, fast.

We’ve chowed down on the promises of convention centre promoters and ignored a powerful set of facts that paint a bleak picture of the convention business, making success in Halifax a long shot indeed.

Here’s some sobering stuff. It’s a report by the prestigious Brookings Institution in the U.S. It says that after a peak in the early 1990s, the convention business has been declining steadily while cities fall over each other building new, mostly publicly subsidized, money-losing convention facilities. Investment doubled over a decade, while business dropped, in many places by as much as 50 per cent, a conclusion "that should give local leaders pause as they call for ever more public investment in the convention business."

That report was in 2005. I called the author, Heywood Sanders, a professor of urban planning at the University of Texas who specializes in building projects as civic investments, to ask what has happened since. "Worse, much worse, since the recession," he said, as he was putting the finishing touches on a book he’s writing on the subject.

Furthermore, he said, the promises of promoters, and the hopes of civic leaders to revitalize their downtowns with convention centres, have mostly proven wrong.

He offered the example of Boston as typical. It did a major expansion several years ago on the expectation of 800,000 hotel-room nights over a given period. It’s been half that. Otherwise, the plight of the world-leading Las Vegas convention centre is indicative, with the number of conventioneers having dropped from 1.6 million in ’08 to 1.1 million in ’09.

Centre managers everywhere are into giveaways and cut rates to stay afloat, as businesses cut costs and either downsize or replace conventions with interactive communications, likely a trend that will continue into any economic recovery.

His report covered the U.S. Since then he’s taken a keen interest in Canada, where the same thing is going on, with new centres being pursued along the same logic not only in Halifax but in Moncton, Ottawa, Niagara Falls, Winnipeg and Saint John. Meanwhile, the one in Vancouver is complete — at double the projected cost in taxpayer money, clocking in at nearly $800 million in public funds.

What civic leaders in Halifax need to ask, says Sanders, is: "What is the case that leads one to believe that Halifax will succeed where others haven’t?" I mentioned the usual argument that Halifax is a more hassle-free destination for international, mainly U.S., business. "OK, but then what’s the argument that says they won’t go to Ottawa, Niagara Falls, etc., instead, for the same reasons?"

Meanwhile, a study at the University of Pennsylvania in 2004 ripped into the unreliability of the feasibility studies used to justify these convention centres, and that are usually wrong (and when things go wrong, more feasibility studies are done by the same people to "fix" the problem), he said, adding that one thing always missing from the argument is any look at alternatives.

The coalition fighting the Halifax project in its present form have some other arguments — at up to 18 floors, it will block part of the view planes to Halifax Harbour; the need for the extra office space going with it is questionable; and there’s the murkiness of the P3 process with its known hazards to the public purse.

This last is a key point. The whole thing is top secret, although the go-ahead is said to be imminent. The present government has picked this up from the previous one, apparently without questioning its assumptions.

But if $100 million or more is going into this in such unpromising economic conditions, nothing is more urgent than to question it. Indeed, I’m reminded of the struggle over bringing the Commonwealth Games to Halifax back in 2007 — it took a pitched battle against determinedly secretive promoters to finally wring out the staggering fact that the "$200 million" Games would cost closer to $2 billion.

The minister in charge is Bill Estabrooks. Bill, you are the NDP. Act like it. Lift the veil on this thing and let it be ventilated properly in the light of day. If not, what I propose is a good public uproar.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This was posted today in the Chronicle Herald. I hope that anyone in support of this proposal will post your comments at http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1171886.html . There is a place at the bottom for comments. I believe that this is just another opponent to tall buildings since he mentions the height near the end of his story. All his facts are based on the US which is in the middle of a severe recession.

He also throws in a statement on how a group was able to get together and stop the Commonwealth Games. While other cities are doing all that they can to promote their cities these groups are doing all that they can to limit growth.

The author has some good points, but could have put more of a positive spin on it. He is obviously against it, and everyone is entitled to their opinions. I have to admit he actually puts facts to his opinion, which is more then what most people have done when talking about the centre.

If a new convention centre is needed then the feasibility studies should show this. However where is the study, all i've seen is numbers throwin around but can not be vaildated.

I have no problem supporting the use of public money for the project as long as it makes sense. There are a number of equally important projects that require public money that i wouldn't want compromised because of this going over budget or worse bleeding money.