How widespread are the homeless/mental health/addiction issues in your city/province?

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though even the drug-addled will act in self-interest and often take the easiest route to whatever it is they want or need.

If this were so, all addicts would be lined up for free drugs.

It's not so black and white.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think you missed my point. I was reacting to the concept that the police asking the addict to go to a safe injection site, and the addict wanting to do it out of some concept of being reasonable and 'meeting society half way' would ever have any chance of success, generally. Maybe Metro didn't mean it that way, and I suppose it doesn't matter really.

Police shouldn't really "ask" people to do things unless there's implied force behind it. The implication that somebody will be forced to comply is what makes it policing.

There are people who say all we ever need are social workers. For example if somebody with an automatic weapon holds people hostage at a bank then you send in the social worker, they say the right thing, the criminal experiences a moment of emotional epiphany, and then the situation is defused. I believe this is magical thinking.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by harls

That wasn't what I was saying. Addicts are not in a conformative state of mind like you or I.

You can't expect a drug-addled brain to comply with rules. Heck, this is why they are where they are in the first place.

Actually, you can expect a drug-addled brain to react to basic stimuli, and that can be used to push them the way of compliance-with-rules. I thought this was pretty clear.

I can guarantee that a program that offers a free pharmacy opioid shoots with the tradeoff being that you don't do it on your own terms nor in a full privacy environment would be quite popular. Very few opioid addicts would deliberately choose to still suck dicks for their morphine because of an insistance on being able to bring it to the place of their choosing for their shoot.

A couple days ago while I was out of town (my gf is now recovered enough to be left without supervision for long-ish periods), my gf accidentally spoiled her pharmacy morphine, and had to try to find some on the street (she only told me afterwards so as to not worry me while I was on my jobsite), and the guy didn't want to sell it, he wanted her to suck him for it. It took a lot of work on her part to get the guy to accept the $80 instead of a blowjob, and it only worked because she was going to be leaving and buying the morphine somewhere else.

Just one tiny little anecdote, among others...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by harls

If this were so, all addicts would be lined up for free drugs.

It's not so black and white.

Where is there a wicket for free drugs? Point me to one, AND then if it doesn't have a lineup, you'll have a point

[harls]

I think I haven't been to Florida in a while..

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

If this were so, all addicts would be lined up for free drugs.

It's not so black and white.

As I said in subsequent posts, it doesn't have to work with everyone - just some people.

The threshold for success is not 100%.

I mean, why should murder be illegal in Detroit and Chicago if so many people are gonna kill each other anyway?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think you missed my point. I was reacting to the concept that the police asking the addict to go to a safe injection site, and the addict wanting to do it out of some concept of being reasonable and 'meeting society half way' would ever have any chance of success, generally. Maybe Metro didn't mean it that way, and I suppose it doesn't matter really.

Oh, of course if you're talking about an addict who already has their dose at the moment, which is fully theirs, owned by them, not by the State, and the cops pointing out that Society would like it if they could do us all the favor of getting up and relocating to a safe injection site without any further carrot or stick, then the answer will be "fuck off", that's for sure.

Metro obviously meant using the carrot approach: free clean drugs, BUT you have to do them at the safe injection site.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by lio45

This point, which was just brought up, is something that can easily be fixed by making sure you're not letting anyone leave with anything that has street market value.

For opioids, if you asked me to run it, the way it would work is that people would show up, explain their consumption habits and typical dosing to the staff, the staff would then prepare their shoot / IV for them, using pharmacy morphine not laced with anything else, and be the ones doing the injection, with naloxone available in case the clinic customer just intended Suicide-By-OD by lying about their habits and tolerance (when you do this, you're then semi-blacklisted, and your doses get slightly lowered in the future, as a penalty). You can then stay for a while in a lounge / resting area, and you leave with nothing you can resell on the street.

Only 15% of overdose deaths were associated with injecting in BC this year. 65% were associated with smoking. That's apparently a pattern now seen across the country. (Source). And 48% of deaths occur in a private residence, more than on the streets or in social housing. Initiatives like free drug testing might help reduce overdoses among the casual or recreational users, if the intent is to reduce deaths. Those users, and users in smaller communities seem to be where there are more deaths occuring - it's Northern Health and Vancouver Island with the highest per capita death rates.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by harls

I think I haven't been to Florida in a while..

I can confirm there's even less Free Drugs Wickets there than in Quebec, FYI.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by lio45

Oh, of course if you're talking about an addict who already has their dose at the moment, which is fully theirs, owned by them, not by the State, and the cops pointing out that Society would like it if they could do us all the favor of getting up and relocating to a safe injection site without any further carrot or stick, then the answer will be "fuck off", that's for sure.

Metro obviously meant using the carrot approach: free clean drugs, BUT you have to do them at the safe injection site.

Fair enough. That's reasonable.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

It took a lot of work on her part to get the guy to accept the $80 instead of a blowjob, and it only worked because she was going to be leaving and buying the morphine somewhere else.

You missed an opportunity to talk about Justinflation.

On a more serious note I wonder if the government provides good access to pharmaceuticals like morphine outside of areas like the DTES. It's something that would be a big problem if the supply is interrupted as you illustrated. It doesn't make sense to insist all people getting morphine congregate in the worst part of town.

I think in most of Canada the government gives out free HIV prevention medication to at risk people (mostly gay men I'd imagine). For a long time they insisted everybody go to 1 place downtown to pick it up. Of course if the people who engage in risky sex or drug use practices run out of their meds they will just stop until they can go downtown again, right?

[someone123]

Incidentally I was just walking around outside and saw 3 people gathering with paraphernalia around them, I guess doing drugs, although I didn't want to get too close. When I passed by again a school-aged kid was trying to pass by them along the sidewalk.

I don't want to get too specific about where I am but it's a very "average", somewhat busy part of town (not DTES) that has gradually gotten a bit sketchier over time. The other day a homeless person followed me into the parking garage and another one dug out a part of the landscaping (?). We will have to pay to fix it but apparently it was old and basically already needed to be done anyway. I don't have any anecdotes like this from living here 5-10 years ago.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by someone123

Incidentally I was just walking around outside and saw 3 people gathering with paraphernalia around them, I guess doing drugs, although I didn't want to get too close. When I passed by again a school-aged kid was trying to pass by them along the sidewalk.

I don't want to get too specific about where I am but it's a very "average", somewhat busy part of town (not DTES) that has gradually gotten a bit sketchier over time. The other day a homeless person followed me into the parking garage and another one dug out a part of the landscaping (?). We will have to pay to fix it but apparently it was old and basically already needed to be done anyway. I don't have any anecdotes like this from living here 5-10 years ago.

There’s no question it has become worse over that time. Of course the usual suspects’ chorus will say murders are down and ignore the general disorder, the crazies screeching on corners or slumped over in their own feces on your doorstep or getting into junkie-on-junkie fights under your windows or taking a dump at your kids playground. Nothing to see here.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by whatnext

There’s no question it has become worse over that time. Of course the usual suspects’ chorus will say murders are down and ignore the general disorder, the crazies screeching on corners or slumped over in their own feces on your doorstep or getting into junkie-on-junkie fights under your windows or taking a dump at your kids playground. Nothing to see here.

Thankfully we don't have any of the screamers around here yet, but somebody was complaining that their (somewhat sketchier) area had a crazy person shrieking outside in the mornings around 6 am for weeks.

It's interesting because this person was firmly in the harm reduction, counselling, etc. camp but said this problem was too much and "somebody needed to do something". I think that's correct. The answer can't be "if some crazy person decides to shriek like they're being murdered next to your window every day then too bad".

[MonkeyRonin]

An article from Uganda-based Monitor of all places (via Agence France-Presse) about the growing "humanitarian crisis" in Canada.

Homelessness explodes in Canada as rent, housing prices soar

Thursday, October 05, 2023
By AFP

Canada is gripped by a surge in homelessness that has seen tens of thousands of people priced out of rental and real estate markets and left to live in the streets of the wealthy nation.

Researchers warn government data is vastly underestimating the number of homeless across the country, as the social ill spreads from major cities to small towns.

In Quebec, one in two homeless people can be found in rural parts of the eastern province, instead of mainly in Montreal as had been the case in the past, according to a new report published in September.

...

Between 2018 and 2022, the number of homeless people in Quebec increased by 44 percent, their numbers swelling to 10,000 last year. Indigenous people, who represent five percent of the Canadian population, are particularly over-represented in the streets, especially the Inuit, said Lussier.

"Visible homelessness did not exist three years ago in Granby," mayor Julie Bourdon told AFP, admitting that "rents are very high now compared to two years ago."

The city, rather than dismantling the camps and relocating the occupants, decided to opt for maintaining what it calls "places of tolerance."

...

Quebec, the second most populous province in Canada, is facing a serious housing shortage because of factors ranging from the pandemic to record immigration driving population numbers higher, fuelling demand.

Real estate prices have become the main topic around the dinner table in recent months, and public opinion and opposition criticisms have forced governments to prioritize housing and cost of living concerns.

And Quebec is not alone in the quandary: homelessness is spiralling across Canada, experts warn.

Government data estimates there are some 235,000 homeless people across the country, but that is only counting people who access shelters, said University of Western Ontario professor Cheryl Forchuk, who -- like Belisle -- fears the true picture is far worse.

"We are largely underestimating the number... we could probably triple the current federal estimates," she said.

https://www.monitor.co.ug/uganda/new...s-soar-4390268


Based on those estimates, that would mean somewhere between 0.6-1.8% of the Canadian population is currently homeless. Perhaps we do need to start framing the housing issue as a humanitarian crisis.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Based on those estimates, that would mean somewhere between 0.6-1.8% of the Canadian population is currently homeless. Perhaps we do need to start framing the housing issue as a humanitarian crisis.

I'm still kinda shocked that this isn't the biggest deal in Canada right now. Like, I would have imagined an across-the-table, bipartisan plan with every level of government involved to fix this ASAP.

Instead, we get a federal government saying that it's technically "not their responsibility", and municipalities still blocking 11 unit low rise projects from being built in their neighbourhoods.

As far as I'm concerned, the housing crisis has become the biggest issue Canada has faced in my lifetime next to the 1995 referendum vote, and things just keep getting worse and worse.

[RHINO]

Yep... The world as a whole sees how we've failed in EVERY avenue as a nation in the last decade and its only getting worse. We've been laughed out of the inner circles of our allies and friends and are the laughing stock of the international community. NO ONE has lost more respect on the international stage then Canada in the last few years. NO ONE.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

Incidentally I was just walking around outside and saw 3 people gathering with paraphernalia around them, I guess doing drugs, although I didn't want to get too close. When I passed by again a school-aged kid was trying to pass by them along the sidewalk.

I had to make sure my son didn't go near a discarded needle and other garbage on the walk to school today. Thankfully he's old enough to mostly be paying attention to this stuff.

My sympathy for these people is long gone.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's interesting because this person was firmly in the harm reduction, counselling, etc. camp but said this problem was too much and "somebody needed to do something". I think that's correct. The answer can't be "if some crazy person decides to shriek like they're being murdered next to your window every day then too bad".

Yeah most of those people talk the talk from their suburban parents' basement. The real world is a little more complex than a virtue signaling opinion.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by giallo

As far as I'm concerned, the housing crisis has become the biggest issue Canada has faced in my lifetime next to the 1995 referendum vote, and things just keep getting worse and worse.

It reminds me a bit of the old "Except for the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country" thing. The Liberals style themselves as a progressive government with a focus on social justice issues, but thousands of Canadians becoming homeless is a catastrophic social justice failure that is hard to overlook.