Salt Lake MSA Development Thread

[Makid]

I saw this the other day:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-new-jobs.html

GOED announced Thursday that Lehi-based Canopy will expand in Utah, adding up to 538 high-paying jobs, $6.2 million in new state revenue and $7.5 million in capital investment. Founded in 2014, Canopy is a cloud-based practice management and tax resolution software firm.

As part of its agreement with the state, the company will create up to 538 jobs over the next five years with total wages in aggregate required to exceed 110 percent of the Salt Lake County average wage, according to a news release. The projected new state wages over the life of the contract are estimated to be approximately $150 million. In addition, new state tax revenues are estimated to be $6.2 million over the five-year period.

I thought it was a typo but it is also listed the same in the press release from the company when talked about in industry publications: http://www.cpapracticeadvisor.com/ne...-state-of-utah Of course they state they are a Salt Lake City company though.

Being that they are in Lehi, the agreement should be based on Utah County wages rather than Salt Lake County wages unless they are expanding in Salt Lake County. I have looked online and can't find anything about Canopy expanding in Utah County, nor can I find anything about them expanding in SL County.

The amount listed

$7.5 million in capital investment

isn't enough for new construction, but it would be enough for custom finishes conjoined with new planned construction. The only question then becomes where?

There are quite a few Utah based tech companies that don't have their HQ in the Point of the Mountain area or heart of the Silicone Slopes (Between SLC and Provo) yet still have a decent sized office there (generally between Lehi and American Fork). Only 1 Company comes to mind for having a decent sized office outside of the Lehi area and that is Domo with their office in downtown SLC (Walker Building).

What are the odds that this ends up in Draper vs SLC.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Stenar

There are only a couple of major roads in the entire SW. You would have to demolish several billion worth of homes to build the roads necessary to sustain this development.

Leaders dropped the ball. Every other part of the county has major roads every half mile or 3/4 mile. In this area, the major roads are every 1.5 miles or more. 12600 S is the only road from I-15 to this development. It is near failure now. It will fail at all times of the day if this is built.
This land is 8+ miles west of I-15 and the majority of people work along I-15, so there has to be some way to move these people to I-15.

I'd be all for building more dense developments if the infrastructure had been planned for. Why is this so hard for some of you to understand?

So why did we build MVC and plan to extend it from sr201 to Lehi? This entire development would be west of it. The people west of MVC would use it in much the same way that people west of Bangerter use that. They aren't all going to head straight to I-15 which is great because I-15 can't get much bigger.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

So why did we build MVC and plan to extend it from sr201 to Lehi? This entire development would be west of it. The people west of MVC would use it in much the same way that people west of Bangerter use that. They aren't all going to head straight to I-15 which is great because I-15 can't get much bigger.

There's no way to get from MVC to I-15 except SR-201 in the north and Lehi in the south. How are people who work somewhere in the middle going to get to I-15? I'm guessing 75+% of them are going to try driving on 12600 S, which will fail. There are almost no jobs along MVC. There are jobs along Bangerter.

Then, for those who live at Olympia Hills, but work downtown and decide to drive north to SR-201, they have to deal with the congestion from commuters who live in Magna/WVC who are using SR-201 also. SR-201 is pretty packed already.

And, MVC won't be an actual freeway for a decade or more. Right now, it's just two lanes in each direction with stop lights.

The majority of people who live near Bangerter still drive to I-15 because they work along I-15. And the same problem exists with Bangerter. There aren't many easy ways to get from Bangerter to I-15 except in the north and the south.

If we build higher density in the existing urban cores, we house more people and we don't have to increase capacity of I-15 because more people will live closer to work or can utilize transit.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by Stenar

The majority of people who live near Bangerter still drive to I-15 because they work along I-15. And the same problem exists with Bangerter. There aren't many easy ways to get from Bangerter to I-15 except in the north and the south.

It is faster to take Bangerter Hwy from Herriman to I-15 than to take 12600 South (9min drive vs 11min.) Herriman is not far from Banherter Hwy's southern terminus.

It is only about 1 mile to Bangerter from the MVC down 12600 South. Construction will start on that intersection in 2022 converting it to a freeway style on/off rap leaving only two intersections between 126th and I-15 along Bangerter that will not yet be freeway style (13400 south and 2700 West) and they will also be converted to freeway style in the coming years. It will be almost a strait shot from Heriman to I-15 along Bangerter Hwy.

This is in addition to MVC which will, overtime, become a more viable alternative. By the time this development is built out MVC will connect to I-80 and I-15 in Lehi, it may even be a full freeway only a few years after that. Ten years is not that long. It will take at least a couple years to build this development and I would imagine that adding that many people to the area would help expedite MVC construction.

While I agree that East-West routs are lacking in the Southwest part of the valley, residents of the area will have access to two freeways in addition to I-15 that provide easy access to both Downtown SLC and Point of the mountain/ the prison site (the two areas people will be most likely to find jobs.) It seems to me that access to traffic alternatives in the area should be comparable to, if not better than most parts of Davis county, Utah county and several other developed areas of the Salt Lake Valley.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by RC14

It is faster to take Bangerter Hwy from Herriman to I-15 than to take 12600 South (9min drive vs 11min.) Herriman is not far from Banherter Hwy's southern terminus.
...

You and I know that, but we're dealing with human psychology, not logic. A lot of people who could take Bangerter now aren't. 12600 S is packed full of Herriman residents going home from work in the evening.

If they're coming from the north and they live approx 12600 S in Herriman, a lot of them are going to get off at 12600 S because they don't want to drive all the way down to 13800 S to get on Bangerter. They're going out of their way.

Another example, the office park by the Frontrunner stop in Draper. It would be faster if the people who worked there went south and got on Bangerter. UDOT just built a special interchange just for them, but most of them go north to 12600 S and then I-15. Because of all the office workers coming out of that development, there is often a 1.5 mile traffic backup going east on 12600 S towards Draper in the evening.

Second, as others have pointed out on this forum, Bangerter is nearing failure during the commute as well. The freeway interchange will help, but not if you add 33,000 more people.

Also, the only major road in the Olympia Hills area directs people straight to 12600 S. You have to go quite a roundabout way to get to the other roads from this area.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by RC14

It is faster to take Bangerter Hwy from Herriman to I-15 than to take 12600 South (9min drive vs 11min.) Herriman is not far from Banherter Hwy's southern terminus.

It is only about 1 mile to Bangerter from the MVC down ...

I just clicked on a street right next to Olympia Hills and did a google search to see how long it would take to get to I-15 @ 12300 S (approx. the same latitude the street is on in Herriman). Google Maps says it takes the same 19 min from either Bangerter or 12600 S, but that 12600 S is 3 miles shorter. Guess which route people are going to take when they see that?

[billbillbillbill]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I just clicked on a street right next to Olympia Hills and did a google search to see how long it would take to get to I-15 @ 12300 S (approx. the same latitude the street is on in Herriman). Google Maps says it takes the same 18 min from both Bangerter or 12600 S, but that 12600 S is 3 miles shorter. Guess which route people are going to take when they see that?

I live in Riverton (just off Redwood, thank goodness) and while Bangerter heading east is nice, the fact that they don't have a proper freeway to freeway interchange with I-15 is an issue, especially in the morning. The line of cars wanting to turn left onto northbound I-15 stretches quite a ways west. Then coming home, the left turn from Bangerter to 13400 and 12600 south is crazy. The future bridges at those intersections will help hopefully. Is there any plan to eliminated the traffic light at I-15 and Bangerter?

[gakidave]

I found an interesting document in regards to combining the Salt Lake County and Utah County MSAs (and the Salt Lake County and Davis/Weber County MSAs).

Cliff notes is that a combined MSA requires at least 25% of residences in one MSA to be employed in another MSA. Right now Utah County is sitting at 14%. Davis/Weber is a bit closer at 20% but isn't expected to reach the 25% threshold anytime soon.

The continued expansion at the Salt Lake/Utah County border should help, but probably not any time soon.

https://slchamber.com/evaluation-of-...lake-city-msa/

[Makid]

An easy solution to the MSA debate for Utah County to Salt Lake County might just be to have Lehi added to SL County, at least along the I-15 corridor where the Jobs are located, say 1/2 to 3/4 mile on either side but just the commercial, not residential. Just like many cities do to get the tax revenue while avoiding the parts they don't want. The State could even be sold on this as it could get Trax funded faster as Utah County wouldn't need to fund it since it wouldn't impact them at least if it stopped in Lehi.

For Davis/Weber County, this needs the Inland Port and Downtown to grow more. FrontRunner and South Davis BRT will help to bring the people to Salt Lake.

Just thinking out side the box on creative ways to move boarders and bring in some wacky numbers on the national level for what we know locally. And besides, SL County could use some extra tax revenue to help with transit to the south end anyway, why not let the tech companies help with a little jigsaw action into Lehi.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by gakidave

I found an interesting document in regards to combining the Salt Lake County and Utah County MSAs (and the Salt Lake County and Davis/Weber County MSAs).

Cliff notes is that a combined MSA requires at least 25% of residences in one MSA to be employed in another MSA. Right now Utah County is sitting at 14%. Davis/Weber is a bit closer at 20% but isn't expected to reach the 25% threshold anytime soon.

The continued expansion at the Salt Lake/Utah County border should help, but probably not any time soon.

https://slchamber.com/evaluation-of-...lake-city-msa/

Davis is way higher than 25% (IIRC nearly 40% of their workforce) and should probably be considered part of the SL MSA. Davis County would easily meet the requirements to be part of the SL MSA but it is first designated as a primary county. It's an order of operations thing. It's the entire MSA or nothing. It seems to me that the larger Metro should be given priority and decided first but they do almost the exact opposite.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by billbillbillbill

Is there any plan to eliminated the traffic light at I-15 and Bangerter?

There is a plan... but no money within the next 30 years. The WFRC RTP 2015-2040 shows that a new interchange is needed within the next 10 years, but it is totally unfunded:

[Always Sunny in SLC]

http://https://www.sltrib.com/news/2...ny-apartments/

This will be interesting to see how it shakes out. I have very mixed feelings about ballot initiatives. If you are for a proposal you tend to focus on “letting the people have a voice” while if you are opposed you focus on relying on our elected representatives to make the judgment call. I don’t like how many of these ballots are coming down the pike. I don’t want to follow the California path and have a mess of these. People say politicians are manipulated by lobbyists, which is fair, but the public is just as susceptible if not more to the same forces. Instead of lobbyists though it is advertising.

[Makid]

Without the density though, the project just isn't feasible. That means that the field would remain as is for a very long time, if not indefinitely.

The issue is that Utah is also very developer friendly, meaning that even if the petition and and ballot issue succeeds, the developer could still sue to have the land removed from the city and then go through the process of zoning through the County. If the County didn't approve of the zoning. The developer could sue again to the State to have the State rule on the zoning.

So while the people of Holladay may think they can win, they may ultimately lose as the Developers could build a larger project in the end and Holladay would have no say in how the project turns out.

It is because of these petitions and possible law suits by neighboring cities that I think the State Legislature will take up some form of zoning control in the next session. They talked about it last session. It was primarily discussed about areas near frequent transit routes but I think it will be brought up for areas in Weber, Davis, Salt Lake and Utah County (from Payson to Lehi and Eagle Mountain to Alpine). It will probably be part of the discussion about addressing the affordable housing issues.

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by Makid

Without the density though, the project just isn't feasible. That means that the field would remain as is for a very long time, if not indefinitely.

The issue is that Utah is also very developer friendly, meaning that even if the petition and and ballot issue succeeds, the developer could still sue to have the land removed from the city and then go through the process of zoning through the County. If the County didn't approve of the zoning. The developer could sue again to the State to have the State rule on the zoning.

So while the people of Holladay may think they can win, they may ultimately lose as the Developers could build a larger project in the end and Holladay would have no say in how the project turns out.

It is because of these petitions and possible law suits by neighboring cities that I think the State Legislature will take up some form of zoning control in the next session. They talked about it last session. It was primarily discussed about areas near frequent transit routes but I think it will be brought up for areas in Weber, Davis, Salt Lake and Utah County (from Payson to Lehi and Eagle Mountain to Alpine). It will probably be part of the discussion about addressing the affordable housing issues.

I think I posted this before, but I would like all cities required to sustain their core services (roads, water, sewer, power, etc.) through property taxes and then if the city wants "higher level" services (parks, upgraded landscaping, fancy light poles, etc.) that would be funded via sales tax. This makes density a net positive for the cities where each additional resident lowers the cost of infrastructure. Low density cities would be the highest taxed and dense cities would be the lowest. This would not require the state to take away zoning power, which my guess would be extremely politically unpopular in this state.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Always Sunny in SLC

I think I posted this before, but I would like all cities required to sustain their core services (roads, water, sewer, power, etc.) through property taxes and then if the city wants "higher level" services (parks, upgraded landscaping, fancy light poles, etc.) that would be funded via sales tax. This makes density a net positive for the cities where each additional resident lowers the cost of infrastructure. Low density cities would be the highest taxed and dense cities would be the lowest. This would not require the state to take away zoning power, which my guess would be extremely politically unpopular in this state.

I do like that and would love for that to happen.

[Liberty Wellsian]

As Utah’s housing crisis worsens, business leaders launch a campaign to change public sentiment

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/06/...lic-sentiment/

The Salt Lake Chamber is launching a major public-awareness campaign meant to highlight dramatically rising home prices, shrinking affordability and a historic gap in Utah between the number of households and available housing units. That deficit is now estimated at about 250,000 homes.

[Utah_Dave]

Originally Posted by i-215

There is a plan... but no money within the next 30 years. The WFRC RTP 2015-2040 shows that a new interchange is needed within the next 10 years, but it is totally unfunded:

It would probably be better to stay on bangerter heading north and then traverse east on the 201 or I-80 once the interchanges are fixed up on the north end. I'm amazed at how well and quickly they are replacing the stop lights with freeway style interchanges. Very impressed

[asies1981]

Construction has started on the Hub of Opportunity in South Salt Lake.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by asies1981

Construction has started on the Hub of Opportunity in South Salt Lake.

Really nicely designed project.

[JMK]

Holladay Quarter (Cottonwood mall site)



https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...s-illegal.html