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  #5401  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2014, 5:03 PM
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"I don't know where I'm going, I think the perfect place to stop would be right here and on these nicely improved set of train tracks and concrete and type the address into my GPS."

It's mind boggling how many accidents we continue to have with Front Runner and Trax trains. The one positive is that none of the accidents are UTA's or it's drivers faults.
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  #5402  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2014, 5:07 PM
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Yeah, they should/could upgrade the coupling on the train. The real moron is any ass who stops ON THE TRACKS TO CHECK THEIR GPS/PHONE/CHANGE THEIR STATION. Fuhhhhhh. Where do these people come from??? And how is their gene pool still active? Shouldn't they have self-inbred into extinction by now??
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  #5403  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2014, 6:47 PM
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^^^

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  #5404  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 11:09 PM
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Another Sugarhouse streetcar question for you SLCers: Why doesn't it continue into downtown on the light rail tracks? It's the same Siemens S70 train using the same gauge tracks with the same overhead wires. Why force riders to transfer?

The only good reason I can think of is if trains on that stretch of track north of Central Pointe are already coming at 90 second headways, and adding more trains would be impractical. But that seems unlikely. So what gives?
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  #5405  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 2:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
Another Sugarhouse streetcar question for you SLCers: Why doesn't it continue into downtown on the light rail tracks? It's the same Siemens S70 train using the same gauge tracks with the same overhead wires. Why force riders to transfer?

The only good reason I can think of is if trains on that stretch of track north of Central Pointe are already coming at 90 second headways, and adding more trains would be impractical. But that seems unlikely. So what gives?
It's only temporarily using an S70 train. They're going to switch to a true streetcar eventually.
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  #5406  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 7:04 AM
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I know but...

So I know its confusing about the train accident, and I understand the frustration with how often it happen. As an Emergency Room nurse I can tell you it happens a lot more than is reported, usually it involves just not paying attention, there was on person who was falling was trying to push off the train and it started moving. Most of the people are not hurt to bad but it happens monthly if not weekly. All of us have had mistakes and some of us will make mistakes. If you realized how bad injuries were with simple ladders, people would demand a class before using them. Why am I rambling about this? well when someone gets hurt, be it minor or severe I see them and lets remember that moron may be you one day.. but for you it may be slipping off the curb and breaking you hip, or have a TV fall on you or a loved one. Accident happen because we are human.. now back to your regularly scheduled programing of neato development
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  #5407  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 3:59 PM
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^^^

ScraperNerd, I agree that accidents happen. Accidents are tragic. When it's something like parking your car on the train tracks? That's stupidity that's criminal. Anyone old enough to drive a car should be able to figure that out.

And for the record, I have some kind of ladderphobia (climacophobia, to be technical). I'm not afraid of heights. Heights are awesome. Ladders? Terrify me. So thanks for adding fuel to my fears. Or fires.
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  #5408  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 6:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
It's only temporarily using an S70 train. They're going to switch to a true streetcar eventually.
That doesn't answer the question. Whatever they switch to will have to be fully compatible or they couldn't use the S70s in the interim.

Also, there's nothing about the S70 that isn't "true" streetcar. Atlanta ordered them specifically for streetcar use, and I know at least one other city considering them.
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  #5409  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 6:46 PM
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PS: Not trying to be a jerk. I assume there is a good reason, whatever it is.
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  #5410  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 7:05 PM
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PS: Not trying to be a jerk. I assume there is a good reason, whatever it is.
Here you go buddy. :-) the page doesn't contain the actual information, but I'm sure you can contact them.

http://www.rideuta.com/mc/?page=AboutUTA
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  #5411  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 8:10 PM
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A couple of reasons.

The main line Trax line at 2100 S, where the Sugarhouse streetcar line terminates has three line of service running through it. The Blue Line, from Draper, Red from S. Jordan and Green from West Valley City. During the day there is a Trax train running through all stations between that point north, to the 500 S station in Downtown every five minutes. So adding an additional train to the schedule would be difficult to accommodate and there isn't the demand for more frequency, past the 5 minute mark.

While the car is the S70 model, when used specifically for streetcar they put a speed limiter(not the technical term) on the vehicles so that they will only go the streetcar appropriate speed. These lower speeds will be what the future street car vehicles will built for as well.

The streetcar platform at the west end of the line is about about a 30-50' walk to the Trax platform.

The street car has a two fold purpose. 1) To be a transportation option within and connecting neighborhoods. 2) To be a feeder system to Trax, the same as many bus routes here in the Salt Lake Valley run east and west, feeding the Trax main line.

So there really is no need for the street car line to join the Trax Main line.
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  #5412  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 8:42 PM
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"No need," except you're forcing an unnecessary transfer on every streetcar rider, which reduces ridership. The speed limit issue could be an explanation, though.
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  #5413  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 8:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
That doesn't answer the question. Whatever they switch to will have to be fully compatible or they couldn't use the S70s in the interim.

Also, there's nothing about the S70 that isn't "true" streetcar. Atlanta ordered them specifically for streetcar use, and I know at least one other city considering them.
Sure, some places may be using the S70 as a streetcar, but there's a huge difference between that and an actual streetcar.
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  #5414  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 9:57 PM
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"No need," except you're forcing an unnecessary transfer on every streetcar rider, which reduces ridership. The speed limit issue could be an explanation, though.
One thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that putting another train on the main line will reduce frequencies of the other three lines. Right now those three lines come into that station every 5 minutes, which means on their respective individual lines they run every 15 minutes. Adding the fourth line at the same 5 minute frequencies would result in the individual lines then being spaced at 20 minute intervals. Yes the frequencies could be reduced to 4 minutes, and individual lines to 16 minute intervals, but how does that additional minute on the individual lines effect ridership, and is there even close to enough demand to justify trains every 4 minutes from 2100 S to 500 S?

All transit systems require transfers, If they can all be eliminated then why not just run Front Runner right down main st. It would eliminate a transfer and might increase Front Runner ridership. Plan and simple, while the vehicles are essentially the same(currently), it is a different mode within the greater system. The same mode can't be used everywhere, the streetcar is the appropriate mode for that area, light rail isn't.
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  #5415  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 3:19 AM
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The technical reasons why the S-line does not continue into downtown are all right and I agree with them - but I think the biggest reason is political.

There's still a lot of talk about building lots of streetcar routes in SLC, ones that are actually in the street. As long as people continue to associate streetcars with the negatives of TRAX - high speed, loud noise, long multi-unit trains, large crowds, lane exclusion, etc - as long as people confuse that with a street car (single car, slow speeds, shared lanes), there will always be massive local oposition.
UTA wants to draw the boldest lines possible between the two types of operation so that there is less confusion. That way when a new route is proposed there will be far fewer people with signs reading 'Streetcars kill children'.

If they were to run the streetcar into downtown via TRAX, there would definitely be more people who would ride it, but it would also remove any difference between Trax style service and true streetcar service, and local oposition to expansions would be that much harder to quiet.
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  #5416  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 4:09 AM
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What is the status on the bullet train type idea for service between Los Angeles and San Francisco?
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  #5417  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 5:03 AM
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I think y'all are thinking about this too much. I don't believe this has anything to do with it.

The streetcar was originally an idea some random guy came up with back in 2000. He made a presentation to a U. business graduate class who helped him write a business plan. He then spent several years trying to get various groups interested in his idea.

Eventually, the city started pushing the idea hard. The rest is history.

I don't think they ever considered having it go downtown via TRAX. All UTA has to do to make the distinction between TRAX and streetcars is to push through and get it built up 1100 E. Once people actually see it, they'll like it. UTA isn't helping the case for 1100 E by temporarily running an S70 on the line.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatman View Post
The technical reasons why the S-line does not continue into downtown are all right and I agree with them - but I think the biggest reason is political.

There's still a lot of talk about building lots of streetcar routes in SLC, ones that are actually in the street. As long as people continue to associate streetcars with the negatives of TRAX - high speed, loud noise, long multi-unit trains, large crowds, lane exclusion, etc - as long as people confuse that with a street car (single car, slow speeds, shared lanes), there will always be massive local oposition.
UTA wants to draw the boldest lines possible between the two types of operation so that there is less confusion. That way when a new route is proposed there will be far fewer people with signs reading 'Streetcars kill children'.

If they were to run the streetcar into downtown via TRAX, there would definitely be more people who would ride it, but it would also remove any difference between Trax style service and true streetcar service, and local oposition to expansions would be that much harder to quiet.
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  #5418  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 4:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedikermit View Post
^^^

ScraperNerd, I agree that accidents happen. Accidents are tragic. When it's something like parking your car on the train tracks? That's stupidity that's criminal. Anyone old enough to drive a car should be able to figure that out.

And for the record, I have some kind of ladderphobia (climacophobia, to be technical). I'm not afraid of heights. Heights are awesome. Ladders? Terrify me. So thanks for adding fuel to my fears. Or fires.
A light rail train engineer told me here in Denver, sometimes car drivers acted like trains had a steering wheel.

From what I have gathered based on the Houston experience, the accident rate lowers some. Of course, a fender bender with a light rail train is a FENDER BENDER, not a little dent. And, I suppose as long as there are drivers that dent cars, there will be FENDER BENDERS.

Part of the penalty of street running.

The sad part though is that a) this slows down average light rail speeds, and b) that repeated collisions depress light rail engineers.
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  #5419  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 4:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatman View Post
The technical reasons why the S-line does not continue into downtown are all right and I agree with them - but I think the biggest reason is political.

There's still a lot of talk about building lots of streetcar routes in SLC, ones that are actually in the street. As long as people continue to associate streetcars with the negatives of TRAX - high speed, loud noise, long multi-unit trains, large crowds, lane exclusion, etc - as long as people confuse that with a street car (single car, slow speeds, shared lanes), there will always be massive local oposition.
UTA wants to draw the boldest lines possible between the two types of operation so that there is less confusion. That way when a new route is proposed there will be far fewer people with signs reading 'Streetcars kill children'.

If they were to run the streetcar into downtown via TRAX, there would definitely be more people who would ride it, but it would also remove any difference between Trax style service and true streetcar service, and local oposition to expansions would be that much harder to quiet.
Putting a street car or a light rail car into a street with small businesses always generate opposition. Often, small business run on about a 90 day cushion with accounts receivable and accounts payable based upon option to borrow money for 90 days on accounts receivable. Consequently, businesses- unless they are hemorrhaging money can generally stand a 90 day reduction in accounts receivable and walk in customer income rather well.

The problem occurs when sewers have to be realigned, fresh water pipes moved, buried electrical lines reconfigured, etc. Combine this with the requirement to do such work in stages over the length of the line to be opened, and, the small business person (hotels and entertainment venues too) suffers.

Before current government standards and before local and regional governments were involved in public transit infrastructural building, street cars and interurban trains right of way was built under the mantra "the cheapest possible, built over the shortest time, to get revenue ASAP.

Tracks were laid down as quickly and cheaply as possible: sewer, water, and power lines upgrades were never bundled into construction costs, and, cheap self supporting single wire catenaries used for power.

The speed of construction meant that merchants did not have to have very long periods of reduced cash flow.

This IMO is the cause of most of the frustration. The noise, speed, etc., is more secondary, and, at least in my experience, is not too much of an issue for a business (if the right-of-way does not block access to his business.)
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  #5420  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 4:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatman View Post
The technical reasons why the S-line does not continue into downtown are all right and I agree with them - but I think the biggest reason is political.

There's still a lot of talk about building lots of streetcar routes in SLC, ones that are actually in the street. As long as people continue to associate streetcars with the negatives of TRAX - high speed, loud noise, long multi-unit trains, large crowds, lane exclusion, etc - as long as people confuse that with a street car (single car, slow speeds, shared lanes), there will always be massive local oposition.
UTA wants to draw the boldest lines possible between the two types of operation so that there is less confusion. That way when a new route is proposed there will be far fewer people with signs reading 'Streetcars kill children'.

If they were to run the streetcar into downtown via TRAX, there would definitely be more people who would ride it, but it would also remove any difference between Trax style service and true streetcar service, and local oposition to expansions would be that much harder to quiet.
Putting a street car or a light rail car into a street with small businesses always generate opposition. Often, small business run on about a 90 day cushion with accounts receivable and accounts payable based upon option to borrow money for 90 days on accounts receivable. Consequently, businesses- unless they are hemorrhaging money can generally stand a 90 day reduction in accounts receivable and walk in customer income rather well.

The problem occurs when sewers have to be realigned, fresh water pipes moved, buried electrical lines reconfigured, etc. Combine this with the requirement to do such work in stages over the length of the line to be opened, and, the small business person (hotels and entertainment venues too) suffers.

Before current government standards and before local and regional governments were involved in public transit infrastructural building, street cars and interurban trains right of way was built under the mantra "the cheapest possible, built over the shortest time, to get revenue ASAP.

Tracks were laid down as quickly and cheaply as possible: sewer, water, and power lines upgrades were never bundled into construction costs, and, cheap self supporting wire were catenaries used to supply electricity.

The speed of construction meant that merchants did not have to have very long periods of reduced cash flow (imagine how fast a street car line could be built based on no utility and sewer adjustments. During the street car days tracks were laid down on dirt roads and over head wire strung at the rate of a couple of miles or more PER MONTH.)

This very slow rate of construction IMO is the cause of much of the frustration. The noise, speed, etc., is more secondary, and, at least in my experience, is not too much of an issue for a business (if the right-of-way does not block access to his business.)

A side note: building street cars and interurban trains as was done from 1880 to about 1920 was CHEAP. So, cheap that until tax supported road systems were built for cars, the mode was dominant.
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