Tucson Development Thread

[InTheBurbs]

Originally Posted by Qwijib0

Kind of a weird alignment on the east end, Don't see any weird-shaped parcels in GIS that would require that point unless that's extra buffer for an eventual additional runway at TIA

Could that southeast jag eventually connect the parkway to the proposed east end of I-11?

[combusean]

That southeast jag is really bad. Shoving traffic to go north on I 19, then have to exit a few miles later, go parallel a couple miles west and merge back in with I-10 just seems like the recipe for a redundant traffic disaster.

[crzyabe]

I am curious about the 22nd Street View project. Now that the Gem Show is over, did that guy get his 40 units sold? I know in an article published early in the show he said he had sold less than 20. I think this project is interesting and I hope it goes forward.

[somethingfast]

could you imagine what this I-11 corridor would do for Tucson's transit problems if it took exactly the flip-side route going through eastern and northwest tucson then meeting up at I-10? makes too much sense for tucson. yeah, stupid...

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by ppdd

I did enjoy the show, though it pains me to see another show set in "Tucson" that is not shot here, thanks to our inability to pass film tax credits that are in place in many other states.

Turns out Hollywood didn't have to go too far. It was filmed in the San Fernando Valley - Chatsworth, CA.

[Ritarancher]

UMC's new tower has been designed and is expected to break ground next year.
http://m.tucson.com/news/local/new-t...ile_touch=true

[southtucsonboy77]

Originally Posted by Ritarancher

UMC's new tower has been designed and is expected to break ground next year.
http://m.tucson.com/news/local/new-t...ile_touch=true

I love it. Too, it should help transition the neighboring proposed 20-story tower on Speedway/Campbell.

[Qwijib0]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

could you imagine what this I-11 corridor would do for Tucson's transit problems if it took exactly the flip-side route going through eastern and northwest tucson then meeting up at I-10? makes too much sense for tucson. yeah, stupid...

About the only route you could take that would not completely destroy any continuity in the city would be that fantastical plan to use the rillito riverbed, and even that would be the worst thing. Otherwise you're bisecting neighborhoods.

[kaneui]

Reviewing the development pipeline since Banner Health's announcement of its $500+M renovation/addition to University Medical Center, six projects in the Main Gate/UMC area will have a significant impact on urban density there, adding to what is becoming a mini skyline near the UofA (and all of it TOD, since each project is within a few blocks of the streetcar):

1. The Hub at Tucson II (1023 N. Tyndall Ave. - student housing, 6 stories, spring 2015 construction start)
2. UA Bioscience Research Laboratories (Helen St. & Cherry Ave., 5+ stories, May 2015 construction start)
3. Residence Inn - UA (Tyndall Ave. & 2nd St., 14 stories, summer 2015 construction start)
4. Speedway & Campbell (10, 12 and 20-story mixed-use complex, awaiting rezoning to start construction)
5. Banner-UMC (1501 N. Campbell Ave., new 11-story tower, need rezoning before 2016 construction start)
6. Hotel Euclid (Euclid Ave. & 4th St., 6 stories, 4 structures being demo'd prior to construction)

Concurrently, another wave of streetcar TOD is slowly picking up speed on the west end of downtown, including the Thrifty block project (Bourn), the Arena Site project (Nor-Gen), and the acres of vacant parcels west of I-10, including the Mission District (Gadsden) and the proposed Tucson Origins Heritage Park (35 acres south of Cushing St.).

Also, HSL Properties is supposedly planning a renovation of the shuttered Hotel Arizona, with plans to be finalized in 30-60 days (with Bert Lopez' history, however, I wouldn't hold my breath):

http://azbex.com/hsl-engages-flurry-...zona-projects/

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by kaneui

Reviewing the development pipeline since Banner Health's announcement of its $500+M renovation/addition to University Medical Center, five additional projects in the Main Gate/UMC area will also have a significant impact on the urban density of the area, adding to what is becoming a mini skyline near the UofA (and all of it TOD, since each project is within a few blocks of the streetcar):

1. The Hub at Tucson II (1023 N. Tyndall Ave. - student housing, 6 stories, spring 2015 construction start)
2. UA Bioscience Research Laboratories (Helen St. & Cherry Ave., 5+ stories, May 2015 construction start)
3. Residence Inn - UA (Tyndall Ave. & 2nd St., 14 stories, summer 2015 construction start)
4. Speedway & Campbell (10, 12 and 20-story mixed-use complex, awaiting rezoning to start construction)
5. Banner-UMC (1501 N. Campbell Ave., new 11-story tower, need rezoning before 2016 construction start)
6. Hotel Euclid (Euclid Ave. & 4th St., 6 stories, 3 structures being demo'd prior to construction)

Concurrently, another wave of streetcar TOD is slowly picking up speed on the west end of downtown, including the Thrifty block project (Bourn), the Arena Site project (Nor-Gen), and the acres of vacant parcels west of I-10, including the Mission District (Gadsden) and the proposed Tucson Origins Heritage Park (35 acres south of Cushing St.).

I also read that HSL Properties is planning a renovation of downtown's Hotel Arizona, with plans to be finalized in 30-60 days (with Bert Lopez' history, however, I wouldn't hold your breath):

http://azbex.com/hsl-engages-flurry-...zona-projects/

Thanks for the recent update to the development page. Saw a few renderings I hadn't seen before.

[southtucsonboy77]

I hope the renovation plans for the ol' Hotel Arizona will include a redevelopment of the corner parking lot.

[somethingfast]

Are there any renderings available for that project at Speedway/Campbell?

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by InTheBurbs

Could that southeast jag eventually connect the parkway to the proposed east end of I-11?

Love to see that I-11 cut through in the middle of Tucson.

Here's a freeway that's been in the works for 30 years and finally given a go. Tucson, there's hope.

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by farmerk

Love to see that I-11 cut through in the middle of Tucson.

Here's a freeway that's been in the works for 30 years and finally given a go. Tucson, there's hope.

It's never going to happen, as unfortunately that shipped sailed a long time ago. It's unfeasible and cost prohibitive to build a cross-town freeway in Tucson now. Not to mention the fact that you would have to demolish a large swath of land in the heart of the city and displace thousands, if not tens-of-thousands, of people. I'd love to have a cross-town freeway, but unfortunately it's a pipe-dream. I do, however, hope that we can get I-11 to reach down into the metro area, just don't see how it going through the center of the city is a going to happen.

But, one thing that isn't, and is also desperately needed in Tucson, is expansion of existing freeway infrastructure. I-10 needs to be 3, if not 4, lanes to at least Houghton, and really 3 lanes to Vail. I-19 needs to be at least 3 lanes to (and again, you could argue 4 lanes) to at least San Javier Rd., and an argument can be made to expand it to 3 lanes to Sahuarita/Green Valley. I know it's coming, but lets finish widening I-10 all the way to the northern parts of Marana. And though it's not in Tucson, lets get all of I-10 from Phoenix to Tucson up to 3 lanes. That northern, 2 lane, stretch is brutal.

[somethingfast]

^^ I'm not going to argue the merits here but you are just patently wrong that it's "too late". Cost-prohibitive is a subject phrase. How do you think the Superstition Freeway and much of the Price Freeway and Squaw Peak in the Phoenix area were built? Eminent domain and displacement. "Tens of thousands" is also a very subjective and, I bet, highly inaccurate # as well. And there is a solution still staring the city square in the face: the Rillito. It was proposed and shot down back in the mid-80's. Again, look to Tempe for the solution. Portions of the Red Mountain are built on the Salt River. Now I'm not suggesting the this is the *right* answer but saying it's not possible is just untrue. Tucson doesn't want that particular solution.

[farmerk]

Thanks for the responses. I've been told that way back in the 70's and 80's, Phoenicians couldn't take it (heavy traffic) anymore, so they caved in with more freeways.

[soleri]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

^^ I'm not going to argue the merits here but you are just patently wrong that it's "too late". Cost-prohibitive is a subject phrase. How do you think the Superstition Freeway and much of the Price Freeway and Squaw Peak in the Phoenix area were built? Eminent domain and displacement. "Tens of thousands" is also a very subjective and, I bet, highly inaccurate # as well. And there is a solution still staring the city square in the face: the Rillito. It was proposed and shot down back in the mid-80's. Again, look to Tempe for the solution. Portions of the Red Mountain are built on the Salt River. Now I'm not suggesting the this is the *right* answer but saying it's not possible is just untrue. Tucson doesn't want that particular solution.

It's been 40 years since people had a collective realization that destroying a city with freeways is probably not the wisest thing to do. We even had a word for it: Californication. Since then, the real-estate industrial complex in tandem with car dealers worked overtime selling people on this classic false solution. And here we are on an "urban" site buying the notion that more sprawl, more cars, less density, and less walkability are the solution to our drive-everywhere (sub)urban form.

Tucson needs another freeway like a fat person needs another Bacon Double Cheeseburger. 40 years ago, Tucson actually understood this. It's gone so unconscious since then that it's nearly comatose.

[somethingfast]

I respect your opinion. It's always thoughtful. But reality and fantasy are blurred lines. In a perfect world, nobody would own a car but would have tiny little pods that move on conveyor belts programmed by the Great Transit Cop In The Sky. I kid, obviously, but the point is that we always have to bridge the "correct" future with the "wrong" past by compromise. Tucson has roads, like it or not. Phoenix as well. I remember how bad Phoenix traffic was in 1993 prior to the opening of the first real significant loop element -- the Price Freeway. From 1994 through 1999 (the last prolonged block I lived there) traffic got immeasurably better with the addition of the 101 and Red Mountain and then San Tan Freeways (later on). I lived there again recently -- 2012 to 2014 (big mistake...don't ever move for love!) -- and it's commute times are vastly better than similar metros (Washington, DC and Houston) that I also have experience in.

And it's chicken or egg on sprawl. Did Phoenix burst the seams *because* of cars and LA-like freeways? Or were the freeways built to accommodate the typical Arizona's maverick-like needs for space in and around themselves? The truth is somewhere between, as always.

As for Tucson, besides the economic morbidity that really has never changed since I was born there (in '72) and then raised there from 1980 to 1989 and then again a extended residence from 2000 to 2007. It's a town that's staunchly anti-everything. And despite that, it's grown. It's stretched itself with -- just a guess here but I'm bet I'm right -- a likely lower overall density than Phoenix (cities and county). So being anti-growth and believing intrinsically or extrinsically in urbanity does not make either one so. Smart planning and concessions to a desired quality of life do.

For the record, I'd rather live in Tucson because it is a far more unique and quirky town than Phoenix (bland and not aging well...thought it was the ultimate supersauce back in '93 though!) however you can't make much of a living there. It's one of those cities where you can almost bet that your kids will have it worse off than you if they don't leave. I hope that changes. I'd love to see it become the "Portland of the Southwest". But I doubt it. Maybe "Portland Lite" at best. Phoenix...well, it's reaching critical mass in a number of ways so its issues will self-correct (like LA) by nature. It will just be painful and extended. But the glory days when people moved there because of what used to be Arizona's selling points (sunshine -- but not extended drought! -- low cost of living and easy expression of rugged individualism) are pretty much over and never to return. Responsible growth and higher quality of life will be engineered very specifically. Or won't.

And hate to say it but all bets are off on any extended prosperity if the water situation doesn't change. I'm not convinced on climate change being as man-determined as the scientists say...although I'm definitely leaning more in their direction than not...but it's pretty clear that no matter the reason the drought situation is getting worse. Longer, hotter, drier summers (is there even a Spring or Fall anymore???) do not bode well for a quality of life that people expect anywhere. The West is reaching a tipping point on available long-term water solutions unless the drought situation ends. Period. Cities are starting to make meaningful changes...but will it be too little too late? Who knows. But a HUGE reason I don't think I'll ever call Arizona home again is simply because I'm afraid of a future with limited water and absurdly long summers. I remember 8 to 10 really good monsoon storms growing up in Tucson in the 80's...it's down to like 2 or 3. Sad.

[soleri]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

And it's chicken or egg on sprawl. Did Phoenix burst the seams *because* of cars and LA-like freeways? Or were the freeways built to accommodate the typical Arizona's maverick-like needs for space in and around themselves? The truth is somewhere between, as always.

For the record, I'd rather live in Tucson because it is a far more unique and quirky town than Phoenix (bland and not again well...thought it was the ultimate supersauce back in '93 though) however you can't make much of a living there. It's one of those cities where you can almost bet that your kids will have it worse off than you if they don't leave. I hope that changes. I'd love to see it become the "Portland of the Southwest". But I doubt it. Maybe "Portland Lite" at best.

Yes, Phoenix burst at the seams with cars. If you're an urbanophile, Phoenix is probably one of the worst large cities on Earth. There is not one single walkable neighborhood in that city. This is what Tucson wants to be? Fer crissakes, why?

Freeways came relatively late to Phoenix, but when they did, the metastatic sprawl immediately jumped from stage 2 to stage 4. This is what will happen to Tucson if you fall for the siren song of "traffic relief". What it does, in fact, is opens up a lot more territory to far-flung subdivisions and that entire catastrophe that Phoenix exemplifies. In Los Angeles, people commonly endure two hour commutes to get to worked on its world-class system of freeways. "Induced demand" is the name we give to this paradox: build more freeways to facilitate better traffic flow, which then means more single-family housing built on the periphery while the inner city languishes.

Who wants freeways really, really bad? People like Jim Click who make their money off the cities they actually despise. Or land speculators like Don Diamond who make their money turning one of the world's most enchanting topographies into a nightmarish cartoon-scape that's looks like Anyplace USA. Tucson is never going to be Portland-Lite. That dream died in the 1970s. But it doesn't have to pretend that traffic jams are worse than a city no one even cares about. This is why Phoenix should be a cautionary tale about what NOT to do. People who live there love their houses, their swimming pools, their cars, and their lifestyles. But do they love their city? If so, where does this love show its face? The nice parts of Phoenix are nice but the city is utterly devoid of urban magic and always will be. They can't - and won't - retrofit sprawl. It's impossible.

I live in Portland now and I love it. 40 years ago, Portland said no to Californication. It turned its focus inward instead of outward. It built great transit and established a strong urban growth boundary to check sprawl. This took enormous discipline and patience because the forces of greed are always present. They still are, in fact. Angry Republicans are always railing against evil Portland with its skyscrapers, density, and hippies. They want Portland to be more like Phoenix, even though Portland is the economic engine that pulls up all of Oregon.

Tucson really needs a committed cadre of urban warriors fighting with bloody claws the Jim Clicks and Don Diamonds. In my heart of hearts, I know it's too late. But if you really love the quirky Tucson and not the generic sprawl-crud it's become, you're fight the good fight anyway.

[somethingfast]

Again, I appreciate your passionate stance. And I mostly agree with it. Not really arguing at all. I visited Portland in 2007 and absolutely loved it. This was the summer so it was perfect. I can definitely see the attraction. And I disagree that it's too late for Tucson to become a Portland Lite at all. Very possible. It already is in spirit. It just doesn't have the pockets any more than Portland can compare itself to Seattle. But they are all very similar in spirit...i.e. the desire to not be defined by anyone else. Tucson is just too steadfast to the point of cutting off its nose to spite its face. It would rather be poor than compromise.

And I do have to completely disagree with you that there's any undue influence that the Jim Clicks and Don Diamonds are having on Tucson. If Jim Click (who is probably the richest Tucsonan) is clamoring for more road miles for his cars, it aint working. If anything, reactionaries that somehow keep zero progress from taking place yet somehow profiting greatly (Grijalva and Lopez, I'm talking here) are the real problem and hold all the sway.

Anyway, I find it alarming yet telling that, here we are, two people that are arguing passionately about Arizona and its future...are not there. And therein lies the problem. The passionate Arizonans must always flee otherwise the reality is too hard to take. So much apathy. So little opportunity. The endless boom and bust cycles. The endless summers that seem to be getting ever-longer and hotter. And no answers. Nobody wants answers. They move there (not as much as they used to, mind you) and they keep their allegiances to the Yankees and Cowboys and Lakers and want their cake and the ability to eat it too. Low home prices. No high tax rates. Giant pools and lush green lawns...in the desert no less! Two thirds of all Phoenicians and probably half of all Tucsonans since 1980 are, essentially, self-interested carpet baggers. The Arizona I remember in pretty much every conceivable way is....gone. It's a gutted carcass of what made it so special and unique.

But I don't think it's too late for Tucson. It still has a chance to preserve its identity and still grow economically and improve on the well-being of its citizens 20, 50 or 100 years from now. But it's got to make some compromises to do that. Its failure will be function of how irresponsibly it avoids that compromise, imo. It's never gonna be another Phoenix. Not even close. But does it want to be its own unique take on relative harmony between prosperity and cultural preservation a la Portland? Something worth aspiring to? It can't stay the road either. It has to take action. Sitting still will never get you where you need to be.