ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[lux]

I will correct myself. I said that cars are the main obstacle to social mobility in America. I should have said it was ONE of them, not the MAIN one.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by newuserbuckhead

If we're going to spend billions on rail infrastructure, it should be done in areas that will actually use it. In areas where it will make a real and tangible impact. Intown areas where lifestyle changes can actually happen. West Midtown, the Beltline, crosstown lines. Provide the opportunity to live car-lite lifestyles if people want. But further extending rail to far flung parts of the metro for little to no benefit isn't the best use of limited funds.

While I *strongly* disagree with most of your anti-transit, pro-car post, this is the one part I agree with. We should focus transit expansion in the parts of Atlanta that are already relatively dense and getting denser, and have the supporting walkability/bikability and zoning. And that's exactly what MARTA is doing, since only the city of Atlanta passed the tax increase. Unfortunately they seem to only want to build BRT.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by shivtim

While I *strongly* disagree with most of your anti-transit, pro-car post, this is the one part I agree with. We should focus transit expansion in the parts of Atlanta that are already relatively dense and getting denser, and have the supporting walkability/bikability and zoning. And that's exactly what MARTA is doing, since only the city of Atlanta passed the tax increase. Unfortunately they seem to only want to build BRT.

One silver lining with the BRT line they are planning- it appears they are pursuing a dedicated guideway along the CSX line which is completely separate from the street. I believe this will allow the buses to go order fast, and is the best outcome for BRT. It also means reserved right of way for future rail someday after we are all dead. Curiously the graphic I saw on bender’s twitter account (apologies for not reposting) has dekalb portion listed as ‘unfunded’, and it appears that portion, at this point, will use mostly existing roads with some dedicated lanes. I was really hoping they planned rail here, which would tie in with the atlanta streetcar.

I’m sure several of you are aware, but they are planning on converting the orange line BRT in the valley in LA to light rail by 2050, and that BRT line was finished in 2005

[tinyslam]

Yea from a pragmatic point of view BRT in a dedicated ROW with prioritized signals at crossings could be a decent first step. If there is sufficient ridership it could be upgraded to LRT in the future. I'm skeptical however that marta can properly execute it in a timely manner and not just talk about it/study it for years and years just to eventually do it in a half ass manner. Which they would then use the low ridership that comes from that as an excuse not to upgrade it.

[Tuckerman]

The mass transit problem in US cities is very complex. It is true that the “older, more dense cities” such as Boston, Chicago, NYC, etc. had the most developed mass transit systems. Nonetheless, most of these cities have rarely added in the later 20th century to the present any additional lines and in fact have allowed the systems to age considerably. High density is often given as a reason that US cities don’t turn to mass transit as many US cities, particularly those that developed during the expressway building times because of their lack of density. Of curse this is a chicken-egg problem. For example, had cities in the US developed commuter rail lines (e.g. in London or Berlin) along the heavily developed rail corridors in and around US cities, the pattern of sprawl may have been very different and centered around these lines. Partly because of pressure from the auto industry the US took a different approach based on the automobile. We are paying for that decision in having housing developed far from any rail structures.

Having had the opportunity to live in Europe for over a decade in the UK, Germany, and Belgium during the 80s and 90s I had the opportunity to utilize public transit regularly. In fact, during all those years we never owned a car-it was not necessary. Living in Atlanta since then has allowed for ample opportunity to follow mass transit in the US and particularly in Atlanta. There are many reasons why the transit situation in Atlanta is so limited, but in many ways Atlanta is better off than many cities with at least the MARTA system.

One effort has been to try and understand the “culture” of negative views of public transit. That is, why such a general public lack of awareness of public transit? There are many possibilities to answer this question and may have been discussed in detail in SP and other sources. One curiosity that I would note is the use of public transit in childhood and adolescence. This is commonplace in much of Europe, that is grade, middle, high school and college students regularly go to school on local public transit (there are no “yellow” buses catering just to school kids). Thus, from early years on children use the general bus and transit system along with everyone else and as such see this as quite normative. There is no “stigma” in taking regular city transit – a lesson for later life.

[tdawg]

It’s very disappointing watching what is happening with MARTA, especially while cities like Seattle are out there building 112 miles of new light rail.

[jpk1292000]

Originally Posted by tdawg

It’s very disappointing watching what is happening with MARTA, especially while cities like Seattle are out there building 112 miles of new light rail.

It's exceptionally discouraging, but I don't know what the solution is.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by tdawg

It’s very disappointing watching what is happening with MARTA, especially while cities like Seattle are out there building 112 miles of new light rail.

Seattle’s transit taxes passed ~$54B worth of funds, Atlanta’s was $2.5B. That’s a big difference.

[tdawg]

Ah, that explains it. Doubtful now that MARTA could get anything close to that passed given how they mismanaged the last TSPLOST.

[Atlurbsandspices]

Originally Posted by montydawg

Well, the economics of running a passenger railroad are not favorable to freight- so I believe CSX and NS are out. Nearly all countries, including China, are subsidizing the passenger railroad networks. Bright line plans on making a good chunk of their money on real estate. They purchased large chunks of land before stations were announced and plans leases on those plots and other like deals. Being bright line is more or less run by the existing railroad down the coast, FEC, who already owns the land, the economics were favorable since they already own the track. Florida also has a lot of density along a straight line, which is not really the case in atlanta outside peach tree street. I think any railroad in Georgia will need to be subsidized by the government, as any railroad with a slight chance of being profitable is being persued by private companies now.

Been thinking this over a bit. So is Brightline using their real estate to build TOD type stuff, or sell off to developers who will want to? Any recs for reading up their business model and finances?

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by Atlurbsandspices

Been thinking this over a bit. So is Brightline using their real estate to build TOD type stuff, or sell off to developers who will want to? Any recs for reading up their business model and finances?

There are some good videos on the Hong Kong metro, which I believe they took inspiration from. I’m certainly not advocating any communist model, but they essentially hold a monopoly on land around the stations, and the government makes it not practical to own a car. A rather extreme example, but i believe FEC railroad in FL was trying to pull some elements from this model.

A great video: https://youtu.be/ELy9fOX8vtc

[Atlurbsandspices]

Whe people talk about using, for example, CSX or NS ROW for regional or commuter rail, do they usually mean use the existing track(s), or build a parallel track(s)?

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by Atlurbsandspices

Whe people talk about using, for example, CSX or NS ROW for regional or commuter rail, do they usually mean use the existing track(s), or build a parallel track(s)?

If Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago are models, they share track. Undoubtedly some extra track would be needed to add throughput, however like Chicago, atlanta is a big rail hub, so there may be some capacity issues. I believe the CSX line to Athens is underutilized, along with the NS line to Jonesboro, so those are likely starting points if this were to happen

[Atlurbsandspices]

Originally Posted by montydawg

If Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago are models, they share track. Undoubtedly some extra track would be needed to add throughput, however like Chicago, atlanta is a big rail hub, so there may be some capacity issues. I believe the CSX line to Athens is underutilized, along with the NS line to Jonesboro, so those are likely starting points if this were to happen

Is utilization data published somewhere?

Sorry for all the questions

[smArTaLlone]

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/...Pos=3#cxrecs_s

Prominent business leaders on the Atlanta BeltLine are rejecting MARTA's plan for rail along the trail. They may even be willing to consider providing financial support in return for an enhanced design.

City leaders, residents, real estate firms and other businesses are forming a committee to examine rail on the Atlanta BeltLine, according to sources with knowledge of the matter. It's unclear who all will be part of the campaign. The opposition is sparked by an upcoming extension of the Atlanta Streetcar to the Eastside Trail and waning public trust in the agency to complete well received projects.

"I am afraid we will execute something that we regret," said Mike Greene, vice president of development at Portman Holdings, which is building an office district along the proposed streetcar route.

Greene added: "There was a picture in people's minds when we voted on BeltLine transit in 2016, and there is the design being shown today. We need to reconcile those two different visions."

Business leaders are wary of the potential effects on the BeltLine, such as the ability for pedestrians to access properties divided from the multi-use trail by streetcar tracks, speed at which vehicles will travel, loss in retail sales during construction and overall aesthetic value of the design.

At least five companies are willing to contribute to the design process by providing ideas or funding to execute a well crafted plan. Greene and other executives hope to meet with MARTA officials to relay their concerns and gain clarity on project details. Atlanta Beltline CEO Clyde Higgs hopes to overcome "anti-transit rhetoric" by pushing the agency to come up with an attractive design.

"MARTA's first priority is always safety," said a MARTA spokesperson in a Wednesday statement. "The proposed alignment takes into account the established public access areas and provided crossings with safe access in mind. The current design considers a vehicle speed of up to 25 mph as well as line of sight and grade in all aspects of the alignment."

[Atlurbsandspices]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/...Pos=3#cxrecs_s

Oh good lord, the time for all this has passed. Delay, delay, delay. It's past time for something to be built

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by Atlurbsandspices

Oh good lord, the time for all this has passed. Delay, delay, delay. It's past time for something to be built

Measure twice, cut once. Long term developments are dynamic, and sometimes unfold in ways that were unforeseen when concepts were first envisioned. People with skin in the game have valid concerns that need to be addressed to determine the best way forward. That's my $0.02...

[clexmond]

"Thanks for building the trails and parks, that, and the vision for the Beltline, has done wonders for our property values, but now we don't want the pesky transit part because building it will temporarily hurt our business."

Classic NIMBYism. The original vision included rail, we built dense nodes along the Beltline (with massive tax credits) that could support that rail, and now suddenly they don't want it? (and their excuse is that people are scared to cross, seriously?)

I'm so tired of the glacial pace of progress when it comes to any transportation alternatives in Atlanta.

[alco89]

It's like people can't do a quick Google search on how light rail can work next to trails/dense walkable areas. This isn't a freight train or a bullet train. Nevermind the fact that this has been in the works for 2 decades. Yet these same people will turn around and give MARTA sh*t about how they never expand. Welp.....

Ask these opponents where they think transit should actually go to serve all these areas and they couldn't give you a good answer.

[bryantm3]

The system is so broken that the project has completely undone the original intention. The Beltline was supposed to be for Atlantans, for the existing communities that were already there. Instead, investors from across the country pounced on it, completely dislocated local residents and businesses, and now they're holding it hostage. The internet has done a lot of good things but it has also turbo-charged capitalism to the point where it doesn't work anymore. I know a lot of y'all are older and have money saved up and aren't working in the economy right now, so I feel like y'all should know, it is hard to express how bad it's gotten out there since 2007-2008. A lot of what y'all are experiencing is a façade to keep y'all contained, but even that's starting to break now. Like the frog in the pot of boiling water we have found ourselves in a dystopia and now the pot's too hot to get out.

I really hate being negative. Watching all the new development is fun and imagining all this stuff happening in the 90s/2000s is fun... but the world just isn't the same place anymore and it's getting more difficult to entertain that fantasy with the truth becoming so apparent. I am holding out hope that we'll get through this and get to enjoy things on the other side. But right now the system has gone haywire and all the stuff that used to work just isn't working anymore.