Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

As Acajack correctly points out, there are only two coherent types of Anglo-Canadians:

1) the ones who think Quebec should be allowed to democratically do what it wants, regardless of the economic impacts;

2) the ones who think Canada should immediately apply for annexation by the USA.



(#1 being the “economy isn’t the be-all end-all” view while #2 being the “economy over everything else” view.)

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by lio45

As Acajack correctly points out, there are only two coherent types of Anglo-Canadians:

1) the ones who think Quebec should be allowed to democratically do what it wants, regardless of the economic impacts;

2) the ones who think Canada should immediately apply for annexation by the USA.

But there is a third option that more accurately reflects the historical reality:

3) The political power of French-Canadians should be diverted, diminished and contained while the resources of Quebec are administered by an English-speaking clique based in an architecturally distinguished square mile on the lower south slope of Mount Royal.

It's absolutely coherent. "Dominion Square". And while the Church and the Irish are no longer on the board, and perhaps that square mile isn't either, I would say that playbook is not dead, it's just different.

[lio45]

Yeah, but that's basically my #2: "things would be even better for everybody if Yankees ran the entirety of North America their way."

It's a valid argument, too; I'm not saying it isn't.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah, but that's basically my #2: "things would be even better for everybody if Yankees ran the entirety of North America their way."

It's a valid argument, too; I'm not saying it isn't.

The English-speaking clique Kool refers to still probably likes having an international border on the 45th parallel so that it doesn't have to compete as directly with the uppity Yanks.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

But there is a third option that more accurately reflects the historical reality:

3) The political power of French-Canadians should be diverted, diminished and contained while the resources of Quebec are administered by an English-speaking clique based in an architecturally distinguished square mile on the lower south slope of Mount Royal.

It's absolutely coherent. "Dominion Square". And while the Church and the Irish are no longer on the board, and perhaps that square mile isn't either, I would say that playbook is not dead, it's just different.

I guess French Canadians can therefore be considered lucky that the future soldiers the anglo playbook was counting on are currently bitterly fighting with each other in the cafeteria of Concordia University.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I guess French Canadians can therefore be considered lucky that the future soldiers the anglo playbook was counting on are currently bitterly fighting with each other in the cafeteria of Concordia University.

And all over England, too. Because this clique, this project is related to London, LSE, the Rhodes Scholarship, all that. Mark Carney is of this. Bertrand Russell on the cliff in Hamilton was this. They're not Yanks, though they are there.

And their long game fucking sucked.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I guess French Canadians can therefore be considered lucky that the future soldiers the anglo playbook was counting on are currently bitterly fighting with each other in the cafeteria of Concordia University.

Ouch. That's a take.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

And all over England, too. Because this clique, this project is related to London, LSE, the Rhodes Scholarship, all that. Mark Carney is of this. Bertrand Russell on the cliff in Hamilton was this. They're not Yanks, though they are there.

And their long game fucking sucked.

It's all I've ever known and as befits human nature I always saw it as a fairly permanent state. But can't say I ever thought I'd see it as under threat as it is now, though I might still bet on them being able to pull it out of the fire this time too.

[New Brisavoine]

It's fascinating to see how year after year there are always people denying that Québec couldn't do well economically as an independent country. As if the Québecois were some sort of economically illiterate people who needed Anglo-Saxon tutelage to prosper.

In the real world, the independence of Québec would probably be like the independence of Norway (from Sweden in 1905), or the independence of Finland (from Russia in 1918), or the independence of Iceland (from Denmark in 1945), i.e. JUST FINE. And the upside is it would force the governments in Québec City to focus minds and be more serious than they currently are.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A Canadian province (most of them really, not just Quebec) is certainly every bit as viable an independent successor state as the Czech Socialist Republic and Slovak Socialist Republic that made up Czechoslovakia were.

Canadian provinces already have many if not most of the responsibilities that national-level governments take on in the majority of the world's countries: education, healthcare, police, social welfare and services, highways, courts, etc. They'd just need to beef these up and add a few more like national defence, borders and customs, international relations (which some provinces already do to a point) - admittedly these are biggies but it's not as if they'd be starting from scratch. Far from it.

Canadian provinces are also notorious for their dysfunctional relationships with each other and they won't survive in a balkanized state.. in the event of Quebec separation, my feeling is that the ROC will freak out and aggressively push for union with the United States within 5-10 years (or even sooner is possible), to mitigate any economic destruction that would come from the unwinding of Canada.

Ultimately IMO, an independent Quebec will be negotiating with the United States as the only counterparty, and America will dictate the terms.

[Acajack]

I'd be frankly quite surprised if the ROC moved that quickly to integrate with the US after Quebec's independence.

I do think it could likely happen eventually but not so soon, if only because people wouldn't want to give the win to those who've always said that the only thing that makes Canada different from the US is Quebec.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A Canadian province (most of them really, not just Quebec) is certainly every bit as viable an independent successor state as the Czech Socialist Republic and Slovak Socialist Republic that made up Czechoslovakia were.

I don't think you understood my point. The geography allowed Czechia and Slovakia to have a clean separation. This is unlikely to be the case in Canada, both because of concerns about First Nations, and because of concerns about breaking Canada geographically. I think, just like economic assumptions, there's a lot of assumptions being made about what bits end up where.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canadian provinces already have many if not most of the responsibilities that national-level governments take on in the majority of the world's countries: education, healthcare, police, social welfare and services, highways, courts, etc. They'd just need to beef these up and add a few more like national defence, borders and customs, international relations (which some provinces already do to a point) - admittedly these are biggies but it's not as if they'd be starting from scratch. Far from it.

Again. I think people assume a lot. And implicit there's the biggest one: that the US will cooperate and facilitate Quebec's independence and probably the dissolution of Canada itself. Given how much Canada mooches off the US for security and trade, this isn't a small consideration. America already has a testy relationship with its southern neighbour. Just imagine what a proposal to balkanize their other neighbour will do. I'm not entirely certain that discussion would go as smoothly as many Québecers imagine. Has there been much discussion in Québec on what the foreign and defence policy of an independent Québec would be? Would NORAD and Five Eyes be a priority? Would Québec join NATO and commit to 2% spending? How much regulations be harmonized with the US? Do how would American demands on issues from trade to security be dealt with? A lot of these burdens aren't paid for by Québec today. In fact, Québec is a substantial net beneficiary of Canadian defence spending.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd be frankly quite surprised if the ROC moved that quickly to integrate with the US after Quebec's independence.

I do think it could likely happen eventually but not so soon, if only because people wouldn't want to give the win to those who've always said that the only thing that makes Canada different from the US is Quebec.

I am sceptical of the USA (in its present form) ever wanting to absorb Canada. They can't even agree on Puerto Rico or what to do about the District of Columbia.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

in the event of Quebec separation, my feeling is that the ROC will freak out and aggressively push for union with the United States within 5-10 years (or even sooner is possible), to mitigate any economic destruction that would come from the unwinding of Canada.

I doubt it. Over the very long term perhaps, but in the short term the independence of Québec would be a trauma for the ROC, so there would probably be a push for affirming Canada more, a sort of Canadian nationalist (I don't say it in a negative way) revival. I doubt they would be in a mind to disappear and dissolve themselves in the USA after the trauma of losing a part of their country.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I am sceptical of the USA (in its present form) ever wanting to absorb Canada. They can't even agree on Puerto Rico or what to do about the District of Columbia.

Yeah, that's the other part of the problem. Not certain the Republicans would want to see liberal, abortion-happy, gun-controlling Canada entering the US Congress... Also, I doubt a majority of ROCers would accept to live in a country that allows the death penalty...

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd be frankly quite surprised if the ROC moved that quickly to integrate with the US after Quebec's independence.

I do think it could likely happen eventually but not so soon, if only because people wouldn't want to give the win to those who've always said that the only thing that makes Canada different from the US is Quebec.

I think the legitimacy of the government in Ottawa will be seriously thrown into question, especially if a non-trivial number of bureaucrats are suddenly viewed as foreign Quebecers. That's going to destabilize the country, and whether the provinces even recognize Ottawa's power to negotiate on their behalf is thrown into question. The most rebellious provinces like Alberta will almost immediately start negotiations with America and the country will fracture into pieces. Ontario might be the only laggard at the end, but it's not like it can survive as an independent entity in English North America. Moreover there's no raison d'etre for an entity like Ontario to be independent. Until the American union happens, the negotiations will probably be frozen and at a standstill until America takes over the bargaining table.

I don't even think the "win" matters that much in Anglo-Canada. Most people would cling onto stability at their first opportunity (especially in a Boomer dominated society) and America is the sole economic and political lifejacket. Moreover, if Anglo Canadians want to stick it to Quebec, the best way is to join America and strengthen their bargaining power.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I am sceptical of the USA (in its present form) ever wanting to absorb Canada. They can't even agree on Puerto Rico or what to do about the District of Columbia.

Canada is chalk full of resources though and strategically important in protecting the American heartland. The safety and stability of Canada (or whatever devolves from it) is an existential threat to America.

I would be shocked if Americans pass on this opportunity to complete their manifest destiny.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I doubt it. Over the very long term perhaps, but in the short term the independence of Québec would be a trauma for the ROC, so there would probably be a push for affirming Canada more, a sort of Canadian nationalist (I don't say it in a negative way) revival. I doubt they would be in a mind to disappear and dissolve themselves in the USA after the trauma of losing a part of their country.

What affirming Canadian nationalist sentiment would be left, in a scenario where the sledgehammer of Quebec sovereignty has just dealt a fatal blow to Canadian identity? It's more likely the unravelling will just kick regionalism into high gear, and force every province to immediately reconsider the value of staying in the confederation.

Especially for Albertans and Saskatchewanians, they would probably would be a net gain position to join America in light of this chaos. . From a realpolitik perspective, they will do what's best for Alberta and Sask, I don't see why they would chose instead to rally around the flag of rump state Canada. Even for BC, it would be tempting for them to join America to be with their Cascadian brethren. Atlantic Canada will feel physically disconnected and psychologically isolated from rump state Canada, so it's not like that situation is tenable either.

Except for the partisan few, I don't think the majority of Canadians would view joining America as 'disappearing' or 'dissolving', given the cultural affinities. For most, the provincial/regional identity would remain intact. If anything, union with America could help to stabilize the political/economic situation and help with healing the trauma.

[New Brisavoine]

Republicans in Congress would never accept it, so the point is moot.

[Truenorth00]

It would be ironic if Quebec ends up breaking up Canada, only to be surrounded by American states, the very country that cited Quebec's language, legal system, culture and religion in their Declaration of Independence, and then proceeded to invade and take over massive swaths of French territory.