Halifax Stadium Discussion

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

I'm not sure if this is a statistic that you all seem to overlook but while doing a analysis of the area for a urban planning project. North End Dartmouth is the densest district in regard to housing east of Montreal, not the Peninsula. So this argument of stretching the density is invalid. There are now more jobs in Burnside than on the Peninsula so getting people to be able to walk to work this area has to become a major growth area that has been neglected since Shannon Park was decommissioned , we amalgamated all the communities together so the infrastructure should be put in places of best use

I think that claim is bunk. Got any numbers to support that?

Despite HRM's dismal mismanagement, which has let ugly industrial parks like Burnside grow unchecked, the majority of office space is still downtown, not to mention government offices, health authorities, multiple hospitals, and universities.

Also, do you seriously know anyone who "walks" anywhere in Burnside? Other than from parking lot to the the door to their office...

[xanaxanax]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

I think that claim is bunk. Got any numbers to support that?

Despite HRM's dismal mismanagement, which has let ugly industrial parks like Burnside grow unchecked, the majority of office space is still downtown, not to mention government offices, health authorities, multiple hospitals, and universities.

Also, do you seriously know anyone who "walks" anywhere in Burnside? Other than from parking lot to the the door to their office...

I worked in Burnside for 9 months and it felt horrible to walk anywhere, taking the bus and walking to my office in the winter felt like I was risking my life. The people that live in Highfield Park and sourounding area can't afford to go to events at a stadium

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by xanaxanax

I worked in Burnside for 9 months and it felt horrible to walk anywhere, taking the bus and walking to my office in the winter felt like I was risking my life. The people that live in Highfield Park and sourounding area can't afford to go to events at a stadium

I can one up that. I worked at the bottom of Burnside for close to two years and used to BIKE to and from work from my apartment off of North St in Halifax. I sometimes used the bus and when I got off work around 10pm I was lucky to catch the last #87. I started biking because of the transit unreliability even though it was a tough uphill climb to Isley and took ~45 minutes each way through the 'hoods.

Funny thing is despite working, biking, and living in Halifax 'hoods it wasn't until I moved to "safe" Calgary that my bike was finally stolen.

[ILoveHalifax]

Halifax media will do their best to air every naysayer they can find. I listened to talk radio this morning and the host just kept looking for somebody who was concerned we could not afford it.
I really wish they would work a little harder to present a more balanced approach.

[xanaxanax]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

Halifax media will do their best to air every naysayer they can find. I listened to talk radio this morning and the host just kept looking for somebody who was concerned we could not afford it.
I really wish they would work a little harder to present a more balanced approach.

Good. Concerns are more applicable than a meathead on the radio saying they like sports

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

Halifax media will do their best to air every naysayer they can find.

Amen.

[someone123]

The ferry discussion here is kind of funny because there's already a 4th ferry on order that is being built right now. I am not sure how fast it will be but at one point the goal seemed to be twice the speed of the existing ferries. The other three are getting old and will eventually be replaced by the faster new model as well. The stadium could presumably be served by 2-3 ferries, not 1. They wouldn't provide transportation for everybody but 10-20% on the ferries is better than 0%. It's important to look at transportation in terms of modal share and different alternatives for different people, not absolutes. There's no "silver bullet" mode of transportation that will work for 100% of people.

The "we can't afford it" attitude is not helpful. The idea of being able to "afford" something doesn't even have a clear meaning. The city can technically pay for a stadium; that's not at issue. The real question is whether or not it's worthwhile and that will depend on particulars of the proposal that aren't available yet.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by someone123

The ferry discussion here is kind of funny because there's already a 4th ferry on order that is being built right now. I am not sure how fast it will be but at one point the goal seemed to be twice the speed of the existing ferries. The other three are getting old and will eventually be replaced by the faster new model as well. The stadium could presumably be served by 2-3 ferries, not 1. They wouldn't provide transportation for everybody but 10-20% on the ferries is better than 0%. It's important to look at transportation in terms of modal share and different alternatives for different people, not absolutes. There's no "silver bullet" mode of transportation that will work for 100% of people.

The "we can't afford it" attitude is not helpful. The idea of being able to "afford" something doesn't even have a clear meaning. The city can technically pay for a stadium; that's not at issue. The real question is whether or not it's worthwhile and that will depend on particulars of the proposal that aren't available yet.

I think the new ferry is identical to the current bathtubs. Also, I think it's a spare and will be used when the other relics are being painted, signs erected saying "absolutely no food or drink" and take your Metro with you because we're too lazy to pick it up or install proper recycle bins in the ferry.

I guess Taylor doesn't read the Chronicle. If so, he would have seen the second hand news that CNN named the new library one of the top 10 eye-popping buildings in the world for 2014. (only one in Canada). Taylor says we need a timeout on the stadium which means his math is really, really bad. We have had a timeout on the stadium since 1983 so I'll let him work out that math problem as practice.

The library was, of course, a big waste of taxpayers money when proposed by a myriad of naysayers. Lets go all out and build an iconic stadium on the waterfront at Shannon Park. This is really the only practical location. There has been no viable site come forward on the peninsula. All potential sites would require massive rework, disruption and land acquisition thus resulting in massive opposition.

Driving over the MacKay and looking down at an iconic stadium in Shannon Park would be priceless.

[counterfactual]

How about on McNab's Island?

[Empire]

You could put four ferries into service for games at Shannon Park. Two to Woodside and two to Alderney. From there you would run a shuttle train back and forth from the stadium. You should be able to accommodate 5000 this way.

[Waye Mason]

The new ferry hull is the same as the old, other than the updated larger wheelhouse and all new internals. The faster boats that were proposed were also smaller capacity, and consumed more fuel, so the cost per passenger would have gone up considerably.

The Stannix will be added to the Woodside ferry route bringing it to every 15 minutes during rush hour, and it will let that line run all day, mirroring daytime operations at Alderney. Two new urban express bus routes from Portland Hills and Cole Harbour will join to the Metro Link to help bring passangers into the new ferry service.

[RyeJay]

Is HRM going to finance a new stadium and new ferry services?
The ferries are expensive and you're not moving many people anyway. This is a waste of money.

I suppose we'll never get around to LRT or the Cogswell with so much going into Shannon Park.

What are the operating schedules for these ferry terminals in Shannon Park? Who is going to want to pay for a ferry ride when there isn't a game to provide a reason to go there?

The most likely outcome of a stadium in Shannon Park would be no investment in ferry services. Regardless of the "help" ferries could bring in the transportation of a whopping 10%-ish of ticket holders, the MacKay Bridge is going to be a glorious mess every single game. Because the stadium isn't located on the peninsula.

Most of the crowd will be coming from within the city. The MacKay will have to accomidate Haligonians coming from the peninsula, Halifax West, much of Bedford, and all the westward outer suburbs.

You can't tell me that the population that would cross the MacKay coming from Dartmouth (that has two bridge options!!) to see a game on the peninsula would equal the traffic pressure for what the MacKay would endure if a stadium were instead located in Shannon Park.

We need to be less focused on "iconic," and more focused on functionality. We need to be focused on what a stadium will do to the immediate economic around it. I also want to strive for bold "iconic" designs -- but these expensive investments must be well-placed.

Shannon Park is a wasted investment in terms of urban redevelopment spinoffs. Shannon Park creates more traffic problems. Shannon Park is not centrally located to HRM's population, or close enough to the universities that are vital to feeding an industry level we haven't tested yet.
The universities are the stadium's best fuel. Shannon Park is too distant.
We need to make the smartest decision not just for the city, but for the success of the stadium. We don't want to set ourselves up to having to subsidise the stadium should there be low attendance because Shannon Park is too distant from its market.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

How about on McNab's Island?

Oh my god! A stadium not only along the water but on its own island, bitches!

#doubleiconic!!

[Nilan8888]

Is HRM going to finance a new stadium and new ferry services?
The ferries are expensive and you're not moving many people anyway. This is a waste of money.

That all depends on how economical you can make said ferry service. One larger boat plus facility might not cost so terribly much when compared to how much you'd have to spend flattening the topography in order to get DmaJackson's proposal to work, for instance (take a look: it's do-able, but it would probably cost more than it might seem by just looking top-down).

I suppose we'll never get around to LRT or the Cogswell with so much going into Shannon Park.

One might also say we'll never get around to those things with so much going into a stadium, period.

What are the operating schedules for these ferry terminals in Shannon Park? Who is going to want to pay for a ferry ride when there isn't a game to provide a reason to go there?

There's other events that would be taking place there -- I would hope so, otherwise I'm not sure it would be wise to have a Stadium if all it was ever used for was the CFL -- plus yes, it would encourage residential development nearby. Heck: the residents of Highfield Park who can't afford to go to Stadium events may find themselves no longer able to afford to live in Highfield Park.

The most likely outcome of a stadium in Shannon Park would be no investment in ferry services. Regardless of the "help" ferries could bring in the transportation of a whopping 10%-ish of ticket holders, the MacKay Bridge is going to be a glorious mess every single game. Because the stadium isn't located on the peninsula.

Most of the crowd will be coming from within the city. The MacKay will have to accomidate Haligonians coming from the peninsula, Halifax West, much of Bedford, and all the westward outer suburbs.

You can't tell me that the population that would cross the MacKay coming from Dartmouth (that has two bridge options!!) to see a game on the peninsula would equal the traffic pressure for what the MacKay would endure if a stadium were instead located in Shannon Park.

I'm not sure why you state the two bridge options in the Dartmouth case, but not the Halifax. You insist that Haligonians will clog the McKay, but this makes less sense to me than the McDonald getting clogged in the reverse case, as well as a lot of roads within Halifax in-between. There's no existing transit hub/highways on the Peninsula where this exists and all of that will have to be built. Shannon Park already has high-capacity roads leading right past the area.

I also fail to see how the North-End option stadium is terribly closer to the Universities. It's only significantly closer to the Mount. It's still a significant distance from the more sports-oriented Dalhousie and St. Mary's facilities, to the degree that I'm not sure there's really all that much difference.

Shannon Park is a wasted investment in terms of urban redevelopment spinoffs. Shannon Park creates more traffic problems. Shannon Park is not centrally located to HRM's population, or close enough to the universities that are vital to feeding an industry level we haven't tested yet.
The universities are the stadium's best fuel. Shannon Park is too distant.
We need to make the smartest decision not just for the city, but for the success of the stadium. We don't want to set ourselves up to having to subsidise the stadium should there be low attendance because Shannon Park is too distant from its market.

I disagree. Shannon Park is not far removed from the center of the population, and the traffic problems a stadium would cause on the peninsula would actually be worse than at Shannon Park without considerable re-working of existing roads and transit. There is not much available land that would support a Stadium footprint and the land that would is either Government owned, far removed from high-capacity roads, or require very large topographical changes to accomodate.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Shannon Park is not centrally located to HRM's population, or close enough to the universities that are vital to feeding an industry level we haven't tested yet.
The universities are the stadium's best fuel. Shannon Park is too distant.

I think we discussed this up-thread, but why do you feel the universities are so important to the stadiums? I'm just thinking off the top of my head, but I can't think of any Canadian stadiums near their respective cities' universities, so I'm not sure why this would be so important?

[q12]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I think we discussed this up-thread, but why do you feel the universities are so important to the stadiums? I'm just thinking off the top of my head, but I can't think of any Canadian stadiums near their respective cities' universities, so I'm not sure why this would be so important?

Good point.

I think we need to look at this rationally. We don't want to build a useless tiny stadium and we don't need a lavish over the top Olympic stadium.

If the universities want to make a significant contribution to our stadium I'd be interested in having it located more conveniently for them. If not than we need a location that will not cost a fortune to prep, and is not going to bring the 'not in my back yard' folks.

Also is it possible to build a football (CFL) specific stadium than can also be used for soccer?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by q12

Also is it possible to build a football (CFL) specific stadium than can also be used for soccer?

Yes. This would probably be the best solution and is being done in Hamilton and Ottawa, and was done for the new Winnipeg CFL stadium. A Canadian football specific stadium (in my opinion) means more seats along the sidelines and fewer end zone seats, which is certainly best for Canadian football with its long field.

The alternative option, a soccer specific stadium for Canadian football, could potentially be a disaster if it is built with too many seats in the end zones (this is the problem with the Moncton Stadium based on the reports and pictures that I have seen).

[counterfactual]

Can someone name one or more credible locations on the peninsula?

[q12]

‘We can do this now:’ CFL commissioner coming to Halifax to discuss league, new stadium

By Philip Croucher
Metro
February 6, 2014

Mark Cohon says there is no better time than now to make the Canadian Football League truly coast-to-coast.

The CFL commissioner will be in Halifax on Monday to speak with business leaders and HRM Mayor Mike Savage about the league, and how to make a new outdoor stadium economically viable.

Read more here: http://metronews.ca/news/halifax/933...e-new-stadium/

Cohen thinks we should follow Ottawa's lead by incorporating retail/condo/parkland into the project. These things are likely to bring money from the business community (developers etc.).

If we need a case study of what its like getting people downtown to a sports event the Mooseheads have sold out Saturday's game against Rimouski (10,600).

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

That all depends on how economical you can make said ferry service. One larger boat plus facility might not cost so terribly much when compared to how much you'd have to spend flattening the topography in order to get DmaJackson's proposal to work, for instance (take a look: it's do-able, but it would probably cost more than it might seem by just looking top-down).

Whatever expense you assume for ferry services: I'm claiming the 10% of total crowd it'll transport will not have a significant impact on the city's street and bridge traffic.

Whatever expense you assume for whatever work must be done on the peninsula: I'm claiming there is a better chance for a return on investment and a greater potential for redevelopment.

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

There's other events that would be taking place there -- I would hope so, otherwise I'm not sure it would be wise to have a Stadium if all it was ever used for was the CFL -- plus yes, it would encourage residential development nearby.

You hope so.

This residential encourage of which you speak is not likely, relative to anywhere on peninsula where spinoffs are likely, and are bigger, and hold more potential for economic growth.

Private developers will be more willing to contribute to this enterprise (perhaps with their own development proposals) with a peninsular stadium. The established density makes it easier for companies to participate -- because more properties are impacted; there are greater retail and hotel possibilies.

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

I'm not sure why you state the two bridge options in the Dartmouth case, but not the Halifax. You insist that Haligonians will clog the McKay, but this makes less sense to me than the McDonald getting clogged in the reverse case, as well as a lot of roads within Halifax in-between. There's no existing transit hub/highways on the Peninsula where this exists and all of that will have to be built.

Unlike on the peninsula: a stadium in Shannon Park means a stadium that is immediately beside the MacKay Bridge. Perhaps half the population of the peninsula decides to take the Macdonald and then trek all the way through Dartmouth to the MacKay Bridge.
Oh good.

Most people on the peninsula, Halifax West, much of Bedford, and the outer suburbs are going to attempt the MacKay Bridge because that is where the stadium is.

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

Shannon Park already has high-capacity roads leading right past the area.

That doesn't help the MacKay.

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

I also fail to see how the North-End option stadium is terribly closer to the Universities. It's only significantly closer to the Mount. It's still a significant distance from the more sports-oriented Dalhousie and St. Mary's facilities, to the degree that I'm not sure there's really all that much difference.

People will walk if it's on the peninsula -- even if they have to walk kinda far.
The bridge takes time. It's a considerable distance. The gridlock is going to extend the time people will be forced to spend travelling by vehicle. Public transit isn't immune.

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

I disagree. Shannon Park is not far removed from the center of the population

But still somewhat removed. It's not the most central option. It's not the best option.

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

and the traffic problems a stadium would cause on the peninsula would actually be worse than at Shannon Park without considerable re-working of existing roads and transit.

I welcome the investment of roads and transit terminals on the peninsula where it will have a more guaranteed ridership.