NEW YORK | 432 Park Avenue (Drake Hotel dev.) | (1,396) FT / 432 M | 89 FLOORS

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by M. Incandenza

I mean, we could just have the "I like it"/"I don't like it" conversation, but isn't it more interesting to give reasons for our opinions? Part of the reason I brought it up is that I would like to hear people's counterarguments.

So once again, my opinion is: Viñoly explicitly designed this building based on abstract geometrical concepts. I think the cost of this is that the building lacks a sense of movement, of texture, or anything else that would engage us at a bodily level, which renders it bland/boring/an empty presence on the skyline.

I think that's pretty clearly an opinion. Is Dac150 right, that you think the sheer scale of this building - it's quality as an engineering feat - is what is aesthetically pleasing about it? If so, fair enough (though I don't think that's a reason for calling my view "ridiculous"). If not, why do you think I'm wrong?

wait, what exactly is abstract about a square? thats about as basic a form as it gets for a bldg. so its like you are having it both ways. that is, you say it doesn't do anything because its just squares and also that its based on abstract geometrical concepts.

[McSky]

When the covering is removed from the windows of 432 Park Avenue, and light shines out of them, it will be apparent that they are unusually large. At certain times during the day, their size will also be apparent, depending on the quality of light. This building may be quite bright on the skyline during clear days due to the light-colored concrete and the large, reflective windows.

If any specific plan has been shared for the possible cleaning and/or sealing of the concrete after the exterior construction has been completed, I haven't seen it. It's hard to say exactly how the concrete will look as the building becomes ready for occupancy, nor can an accurate determination of the concrete's appearance as it ages be stated.

This building is "soaring" already, and it is only halfway up. I think it will look surprisingly gracile when finished.

[Quixote]

Was this really worth tearing down the Drake for? I mean, this is the same guy behind 20 Fenchurch, no?

[sw5710]

Originally Posted by McSky

When the covering is removed from the windows of 432 Park Avenue, and light shines out of them, it will be apparent that they are unusually large. At certain times during the day, their size will also be apparent, depending on the quality of light. This building may be quite bright on the skyline during clear days due to the light-colored concrete and the large, reflective windows.

If any specific plan has been shared for the possible cleaning and/or sealing of the concrete after the exterior construction has been completed, I haven't seen it. It's hard to say exactly how the concrete will look as the building becomes ready for occupancy, nor can an accurate determination of the concrete's appearance as it ages be stated.

This building is "soaring" already, and it is only halfway up. I think it will look surprisingly gracile when finished.

At one point early last year i read a statement that the concrete will be sanded/treated and sealed. As for now the perimeter is on level 45 or 700'

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Was this really worth tearing down the Drake for? I mean, this is the same guy behind 20 Fenchurch, no?

Hell, yeah. The Drake was a decent-looking prewar of no particular note. The replacement is a thousand times better.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The Drake was a decent-looking prewar of no particular note. The replacement is a thousand times better.

The funny thing is that these people who keep bringing up the Drake probably never looked twice at it. As you say, it was of no particular note, nothing you don't get
a thousand times over in Manhattan.




http://observer.com/2009/07/top-20-m...ed-properties/

[sw5710]

8 to 12 inches of snow expected in the next 12 to 18 hrs.

[Forrest Dweller]

The "weather-man-logistics" responsible dude, seems to have been on point for the last several weather events. Gotta be a high pressure job to arrange the lead times for fresh concrete/appropriate crews/sequences---------- also-- do the up-top forming crews have other "inside the structure" task that can keep them busy during extreme weather ??? How much crew flex is there ???

[FMIII]

It seems that people on this forum who live in the NY metropolitan area do love this tower. Maybe you are a bit fed up with towers covered with stones and which look like "wedding cakes". That is understandable.

As a "tourist", what makes NYC, NYC is that, contrarily to Shangai or Dubai it offers a mix between old and new. It's also, and foremost,those unique and wonderful skyscrapers from the pre-war era.

Therefore I believe that some of the best skyscrapers built in NYC during the last twenty years are those who try to enhance that kind of architecture. Trump palace, Cityspire, the four seasons hôtel, AT&T, 15 cpw, Carnegie hall tower etc...

In itself, 432 Park is a great tower and will be an amazing addition to the skyline. But for some foreign NY lovers, it is not what we would have designed if someone had given us the chance to participate in the process. No, we would have come up with something close to, let's say, a taller version of 99church street.

A tower with "NYC" written on it even if you would see it out of its context. In short, a tower which would have risen like a mountain.

[deepen915]

I love the tower as far as height goes.. and it fits in well with the skyline. But, I think there should have been some more design elements in it, maybe at the base or roof. The straight square shape all the way up looks like it will age quickly as far as looks go.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by FMIII

As a "tourist", what makes NYC, NYC is that, contrarily to Shangai or Dubai it offers a mix between old and new. It's also, and foremost,those unique and wonderful skyscrapers from the pre-war era.

Not hardly. Ever visit Times Square? Where you are wrong in your comparisons is that while New York may be a mix of old and new, it is mostly old. I feel I have to keep pointing that out to people who somehow seem oblivious to it.

In itself, 432 Park is a great tower and will be an amazing addition to the skyline. But for some foreign NY lovers, it is not what we would have designed if someone had given us the chance to participate in the process. No, we would have come up with something close to, let's say, a taller version of 99church street.

It's more WTC than Empire State, one one hand. But when you look at materials, it's more Empire State. Listen, New York is a large city, with a variety of architectural styles and skyscrapers. Could there be more variety? Yes. Now, a building like One57 for example, may appeal more to foreign buyers. This tower seems to have more appeal to domestic buyers, the type to buy in some of the more classic Manhattan buildings. At the same time, there are numerous glass buildings going up in Manhattan that have sold out. But in the end, there is one primary reason any of these buildings appeal at all, and that is because they are in New York. And the people that can afford to buy in one of the super luxury apartments - whether full time or not - want one, whatever form it takes.

[FMIII]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Not hardly. Ever visit Times Square? Where you are wrong in your comparisons is that while New York may be a mix of old and new, it is mostly old. I feel I have to keep pointing that out to people who somehow seem oblivious to it.

The first time I went to Time Square the Mariott Marquis was not even topped out and I almost got robbed. The last time I went there, I was surrounded by brand new towers and families taking pictures like if they were in a Zoo. So yes I know Time Square.
NYC is mostly old if you take into account low-rise buildings, but if you only take into account towers above 600 feet (towers that matter), there is a balanced mixture of old and new.

Originally Posted by NYguy

It's more WTC than Empire State, one one hand. But when you look at materials, it's more Empire State. Listen, New York is a large city, with a variety of architectural styles and skyscrapers. Could there be more variety? Yes. Now, a building like One57 for example, may appeal more to foreign buyers. This tower seems to have more appeal to domestic buyers, the type to buy in some of the more classic Manhattan buildings. At the same time, there are numerous glass buildings going up in Manhattan that have sold out. But in the end, there is one primary reason any of these buildings appeal at all, and that is because they are in New York. And the people that can afford to buy in one of the super luxury apartments - whether full time or not - want one, whatever form it takes.

I know that people buy those luxury apartments because they are in NYC, and if I could, I would. And if I had the choice, I would rather buy an apartment in 432 Park than in One 57 because of the large windows and its location. But unfortunately, I can not afford to buy one and I will only see and appreciate those towers from the outside.

But again, what matters is that people like you, people who live there and who will see this tower everyday like it.

Let's say that I am just a foreigner nostalgic of one time in NYC when architects were a bit more inspired when they designed the city's tallest towers.

[Blaze23]

Originally Posted by FMIII

Let's say that I am just a foreigner nostalgic of one time in NYC when architects were a bit more inspired when they designed the city's tallest towers.

I share your feeling on that point. I like 432 Park, but when you look at the new "tallest towers" going up in the city, none of them really stand out the way the ESB, the Chrysler and the Woolworth did in their time. But there are some future classics on their way too, Tower Verre, Steinway and 2WTC come to mind so help is on the way.

[Perklol]

I would take the drake hotel over the Trinity Church Tower. The Lower Manhattan tower looks stumpy and unattractive but this one was a beauty.

[King DenCity]

I bet we will eventually get something much greater or at least definitely equal to the ESB and Chrysler, as somebody said here on SSP recently; with 3D printing gaining mass use ornamentation and detail will become increasingly cheaper as time goes on.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by sw5710

8 to 12 inches of snow expected in the next 12 to 18 hrs.

Yes, I heard the news this morning. They won't be affected. Hopefully tomorrow or so. If the weather will be better. This is not a good day. The flights is being canceled. Due to snowstorm.

[sw5710]

Originally Posted by N830MH

Yes, I heard the news this morning. They won't be affected. Hopefully tomorrow or so. If the weather will be better. This is not a good day. The flights is being canceled. Due to snowstorm.

I think we will see workers in the morning clearing snow and working. They were working before the snow started. I see they have lit up the 3rd level of the new building on the Park Ave side.

[FMIII]

Originally Posted by Blaze23

I share your feeling on that point. I like 432 Park, but when you look at the new "tallest towers" going up in the city, none of them really stand out the way the ESB, the Chrysler and the Woolworth did in their time. But there are some future classics on their way too, Tower Verre, Steinway and 2WTC come to mind so help is on the way.

Thank you.

And yes, there is a whole new set of towers coming that will improve the already breathtaking NYC skyline.

If I take the liberty to criticize 432 Park Av, it's because it will soon become the tallest tower in NY and, hence it will have a huge and long lasting impact on the skyline. We are not talking about a small hotel in Time Square. When you are the tallest, you have some responsabilities: You are representing the city. And that's why I believe that a design more "traditional" should have been chosen to help it to blend and enhance the existing skyline.

However, if this tower really sets a new height standard and some lots around it are redeveloped in the near future (as it is planned in part), it might become, paradoxically, an instant classic.

Generally speaking, the biggest strength of NY is also its weakest point. Because it doesn't really care of the past, it can reinvent itself indefinitely. But in the process, it can also lose part of its soul. And it is sometimes disconcerting for a European like me where the problem is the exact opposite.

Therefore, enjoy your fantastic city and don't hold it against me for my biased point of view.

[King DenCity]

^ I salute you. well said.

[drumz0rz]

Originally Posted by FMIII

Generally speaking, the biggest strength of NY is also its weakest point. Because it doesn't really care of the past, it can reinvent itself indefinitely. But in the process, it can also lose part of its soul. And it is sometimes disconcerting for a European like me where the problem is the exact opposite.

NY actually is faily obsessed with it's past. We have the Landmarks Commission which has designated TONS of buildings as landmarks, and we also have historic districts which prescribe requirements for renovations / new development to ensure the "feel" if the neighborhood isn't lost or altered through architecture.

NY certainly isn't as nostolgic as European cities though, which I think as you pointed out, is a huge benefit to this city. While cities like Paris and London have to delicately balance their long rich history with modern demands and styles, NY has always been a city of innovation and ambition.

As NY Guy stated, the original Drake was an unremarkable yet good looking building. In another city it might have been worth saving, but when you look around Manhattan you'll find dozens of buildings in the same style. The crown jewels are landmarked, the rest, no one will miss.

One of the things I love most about NY is that on the same block you can see architecture representing many different styles built centuries apart. It's like a living active archeology site. A city like Paris on the other hand doesn't really have that. Instead you've got entire period neighborhoods miles away from a newer urban business district.