Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[Pinion]

You're losing focus here. The point is Vancouver's traffic problems are way worse than they should be for its size.

And metro LA is 13.1 million.

[SpongeG]

A lot of changes in recent years doesn't help. You used to be able to weave your way around many parts of the city, like east van, but now all those little cheats are closed off. So people who want to get home now have to take the most congested routes.

[theKB]

Originally Posted by Pinion

You're losing focus here. The point is Vancouver's traffic problems are way worse than they should be for its size.

And metro LA is 13.1 million.

This is something that most don't realize. Vancouver for it's size (and of note we are growing) should not have the traffic as bad as it is. Little things like synchronising lights, making changes to roads like hastings (no turns, add turning lanes) east of Victoria etc are things that could help flow.

As many have said, vision no longer has the mandate to execute such a massive project. With public opinion not overly supportive of this and the majority of vision counsellors/mayors not seeking re-election all while actively talking about road/congestions pricing WHILE CREATING MORE CONGESTION I cannot see how this is a viable discussion. The interesting thing will be if all the VV buddies in the NDP government will pony of the money to make this project happen.

[rickvug]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

You used to be able to weave your way around many parts of the city, like east van, but now all those little cheats are closed off.

Sounds like a big improvement for people living on those quiet neighbourhood streets you were cutting through.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by rickvug

Sounds like a big improvement for people living on those quiet neighbourhood streets you were cutting through.

An actual highway or two east-west and north-south will make it even more pleasant, especially if in tunnels. I stayed in Bothell, WA, not too long ago and because it is surrounded by highways it was much more peaceful than anywhere in Vancouver proper.

Highways remove cars from residential streets.

[Chikinlittle]

Originally Posted by Changing City

.

If you want to compare LA County (9.8 million people) with Greater Vancouver (2.4 million people), you also have to acknowledge that as well as 4 times the population, they have 4 times the land area. Their population density is 800/sq. km. Metro Vancouver is 854/sq. km. - so actually quite similar.

Los Angeles always seems to have horrible traffic compared to Greater Vancouver. I've always assumed that was because of poor infrastructure and social engineering. They've finally started adding decent transit and dedicated bike lanes Downtown, but they have some way to go to catch Vancouver. Under 6% took transit to work in LA Metro in 2015, and even in LA City it was under 10%, and falling over the previous 10 years. In Greater Vancouver the proportion of commuters using transit in 2016 was over 20%, up from 16% ten years earlier.

I won't say that Vancouver doesn't have its choke points, or moments or scenarios of bad traffic, and doesn't need to have better and more holistic transportation planning. But all things considered, this city is far easier to get around than people care to appreciate.

I travel a lot, to many different cities, and frequently. Vancouver traffic, overall, is a dream compared to most metros I witness.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

I won't say that Vancouver doesn't have its choke points, or moments or scenarios of bad traffic, and doesn't need to have better and more holistic transportation planning. But all things considered, this city is far easier to get around than people care to appreciate.

I travel a lot, to many different cities, and frequently. Vancouver traffic, overall, is a dream compared to most metros I witness.

I completely agree with you. It seems like a lot of people on this forum haven't travelled a lot and there's a lot of hyperbole.

Look, Vancouver is not a city which you can steam through with a car since there are few freeways. Conversely, we also don't get the kind of massive gridlock that comes with having many freeways. I personally the region went on the right path focusing on moving people instead of moving vehicles. And there are much more efficient ways of moving people.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Highways remove cars from residential streets.

Absolutely not true
Once a highway gets clogged, people will resort to going back to the streets and youre left with the same problem.

The city i live in is absolute living proof of that

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

Absolutely not true
Once a highway gets clogged, people will resort to going back to the streets and youre left with the same problem.

The city i live in is absolute living proof of that

You're using Miami as your example; fair enough, but does it have a comprehensive transit network? Subway, commuter rail, express busses? That might be a direction to take if it does not.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

Look, Vancouver is not a city which you can steam through with a car since there are few freeways. Conversely, we also don't get the kind of massive gridlock that comes with having many freeways. I personally the region went on the right path focusing on moving people instead of moving vehicles. And there are much more efficient ways of moving people.

Yet in order to move people without moving cars, you need a robust rapid transit network to compensate... which in our case, is still a work in progress. Removing additional roadspace at this point in time seems like putting the cart before the horse.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

You're using Miami as your example; fair enough, but does it have a comprehensive transit network? Subway, commuter rail, express busses? That might be a direction to take if it does not.

Exactly. Miami is poorly designed. The best cities have all modes of transport.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

you need a mix of well designed freeways, local roads, and transit to make a city work properly.

for example, people in Strathcona always were complaining about people driving through their neighbourhood streets. well a freeway through the Grandview Cut connecting to the viaducts from Trans Canada 1 could mean the streets can be calmed, even Hastings could be calmed a bit. with traffic now in the Grandview cut, it is hidden and gives the option for building a linear park over-top with some fancy green-way. traffic flows silently underground while people and bikes travel on top.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

...a freeway through the Grandview Cut connecting to the viaducts from Trans Canada 1 could mean the streets can be calmed, even Hastings could be calmed a bit. with traffic now in the Grandview cut, it is hidden and gives the option for building a linear park over-top with some fancy green-way. traffic flows silently underground while people and bikes travel on top.

Until the cut fills up with latent demand (which would probably happen almost right away) and we're right back where we started.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Until the cut fills up with latent demand (which would probably happen almost right away) and we're right back where we started.

Not if you toll it and continue to calm the surrounding streets.

This is generally how it seems to work in Japan and Europe from my experiences.

Well designed free flow routes accessing all major general areas (allowing heavy vehicles / through traffic to avoid local streets) but with tolls and traffic calmed surrounding streets to manage flow / discourage useless trips by car.

Vancouver's current ideology / set up is too strict and the city would ironically benefit by having a coupe tolled expressways. Essentially one east / west through the cut and the other north south possibly trenched under Knight Street.

At least this is how they have done it in countless non American cities I have been to around the world (And since tolled they would not need to be wide, maybe just 4 lanes with the odd add / drop lane on the side between interchanges).

You could even then ban heavy vehicles from the local side roads (save for emergencies and special local access if needed)

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Until the cut fills up with latent demand (which would probably happen almost right away) and we're right back where we started.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Not if you toll it and continue to calm the surrounding streets.

Well - yeah, exactly. This is what mobility pricing is all about - traffic management. Instead of paying a ton of money to build new infrastructure which will just get swamped with latent demand, we instead manage demand through some sort of pricing which (ideally) will pay the cost of managing the scheme.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

well a freeway through the Grandview Cut connecting to the viaducts from Trans Canada 1 could mean the streets can be calmed, even Hastings could be calmed a bit. with traffic now in the Grandview cut, it is hidden and gives the option for building a linear park over-top with some fancy green-way. traffic flows silently underground while people and bikes travel on top.

Considering how much hell was raised just to build the Millennium Line to VCC-Clark I would assume nobody would let the idea of redeveloping the cut to that extent fly far.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Not if you toll it and continue to calm the surrounding streets.

This is generally how it seems to work in Japan and Europe from my experiences.

Well designed free flow routes accessing all major general areas (allowing heavy vehicles / through traffic to avoid local streets) but with tolls and traffic calmed surrounding streets to manage flow / discourage useless trips by car.

Vancouver's current ideology / set up is too strict and the city would ironically benefit by having a coupe tolled expressways. Essentially one east / west through the cut and the other north south possibly trenched under Knight Street.

At least this is how they have done it in countless non American cities I have been to around the world (And since tolled they would not need to be wide, maybe just 4 lanes with the odd add / drop lane on the side between interchanges).

You could even then ban heavy vehicles from the local side roads (save for emergencies and special local access if needed)

One could say there is already latent demand on the existing roads. That has already been there for years. So instead of building a new tunnel or whatever and installing a toll on that. We could just setup tolls on existing routes or boundaries that would remove the latent demand that has been there already.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Pinion

You're losing focus here. The point is Vancouver's traffic problems are way worse than they should be for its size.

And metro LA is 13.1 million.

While metro LA does have colossal freeway chokeups due the size of the freeway system itself, it is (IMO) ironic that has Vancouver has traffic chokeups due to an underbuilt system.
The key element is the parallel abundance of transit of all types. A great example is Stockholm. They have the Old City totally intact, a crosstown central freeway, (mostly underground) plus all the transit in the world. People who have been there might agree (or even disagree)
'Metro', if you'd care to contribute, if you're reading this, could you offer an opinion? Am I right or wrong?

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by rickvug

Sounds like a big improvement for people living on those quiet neighbourhood streets you were cutting through.

It is. As someone who remembers what it was like in the Hastings area back before a proper HWY was installed, I can clearly remember the large amount of cars that would cut through that and other adjacent neighborhoods of that area. Then the Cassiar Connector got built, and those neighborhoods while still not perfect, are a light year from where they used to be, and have become some of the most peaceful and quiet in East Van today.

In other neighborhoods in the city go out in any afternoon and you'll see people cutting through sidestreets to bypass the ridiculous traffic along a street like First Ave and Hastings or Kingsway. Those people living in those areas are treated to their supposed to be quiet streets being treated like a freeway connector road. Others areas have seen their areas "traffic calmed" which while it has stopped cars from cutting through their neighborhood, has also inconvenienced residents of those areas so much that they often have to navigate a ridiculous maze of traffic obstacles to get to their own homes.

It gets even more ridiculous and potentially dangerous when emergency vehicles have a hard time getting to people's homes who need immediate assistance. First responders have conveyed as much to the city, but as usual they could care less about stuff like that.

[Vin]

So are the viaducts coming down or Not?