CHICAGO: Transit Developments

[Nowhereman1280]

Originally Posted by Chicago Shawn

Peace Time spending? You are aware of the two front war going on right now in Iraq and Afghanistan, right? That alone is sucking up a few billion each month.

Not that I agree that our current budget is justified by this, but its more like ten or twenty billion a month...

Originally Posted by electricron

I'm not surprised cities with established transit systems want a larger slice of Federal revenues, but I disagree, the Feds should be spending more for new transit systems in cities without any.

On a national scale, there are far more voters in cities without any rail transit or with growing rail systems than in cities with established rail systems.

Ok, but remember that the current infrastructure used by the CTA was not built (with the exception of the subways and the Orange Line) by the government. Almost all of the EL was privately constructed (before Unions and federal subsidization of the automobile made it cost prohibitive) by private industry. When compared with cities like Dallas where the entire system has been constructed with public dollars, the CTA is has probably received billions less dollars from public coffers. I think its ridiculous that a public transit agency is running on privately constructed infrastructure from 120 years ago and receiving less money in some cases from the government than systems that are entirely government funded.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

Not that I agree that our current budget is justified by this, but its more like ten or twenty billion a month...



Ok, but remember that the current infrastructure used by the CTA was not built (with the exception of the subways and the Orange Line) by the government. Almost all of the EL was privately constructed (before Unions and federal subsidization of the automobile made it cost prohibitive) by private industry. When compared with cities like Dallas where the entire system has been constructed with public dollars, the CTA is has probably received billions less dollars from public coffers. I think its ridiculous that a public transit agency is running on privately constructed infrastructure from 120 years ago and receiving less money in some cases from the government than systems that are entirely government funded.

Look at the way FRA and FTA capital funds are appropriated to transit agencies. For the past decade or so, they have been targeted for NEW rail lines. If Chicago wants some of this cash, how about building some new rail lines and expand their system?

Eventually, these programs will be targeted for maintenance on established lines. But not now.

[Chicago Shawn]

Originally Posted by ardecila

I don't know if anybody went to the Yellow Line Extension Open House, but it occurred on April 30th. Since I'm down here in New Orleans, I couldn't exactly go myself, but CTA has been quite diligent about posting the presentation on their website quickly.

The analysis process narrowed it down to heavy rail, using the UPRR Alignment on an elevated structure with a fork to the east at 94, terminating in a station at the interchange of 94/Old Orchard Road. This station is not integrated with the mall, but it's not inconceivable that the mall could expand with a "Yellow Line concourse" lined with shops that links the station into the mall.

The project will also include a reconstructed Dempster Station, elevated over Dempster. Oddly, the expansion will be single-track. This lowers construction costs and fits better into a limited right-of-way, and CTA is, I assume, not expecting train frequencies to require two tracks.

Thanks for posting the images. The alignment was chosen to get as close to the mall as possible, without going onto the mall property. This is because the Westfield corporate office was very much opposed to running the line on their property; this was despite local management being fully in favor of the idea. I guess Westfield doesn't believe shoppers arrive by train, or perhaps they think having the train on mall property will lead to "security problems". Either way, its a little annoying. There are trip generators west of I-94 that could be serviced by this station including office buildings, Old Orchard Woods and the Circuit Court, but I doubt many will be walking across the rebuilt interchange which will only make the area less pedestrian friendly.

[Mr Downtown]

Various decisions made by the consultants and other players have turned this into a why bother project. Having determined that the line could not have grade crossings, and that the powerline pylons could not be relocated, they end up with a single-track extension (to avoid powerline sag) that nonetheless requires demolition of the new Dempster Station and still doesn't quite get to Old Orchard.

Given the dispersed nature of the destinations, which are both east and west of the Edens, probably a better idea would be to just turn the ROW into a busway that shuttle buses from the mall, the courthouse, Old Orchard Woods, etc., could use for a quick nonstop run to Dempster Terminal.

[Chicago Shawn]

Originally Posted by electricron

Look at the way FRA and FTA capital funds are appropriated to transit agencies. For the past decade or so, they have been targeted for NEW rail lines. If Chicago wants some of this cash, how about building some new rail lines and expand their system?

Eventually, these programs will be targeted for maintenance on established lines. But not now.

And connect to those new rail lines to what, a 120 year old system that is literally falling apart in places? The trains have had to slow down to 6 MPH in places because the tracks and structure beneath them is in such poor shape. In order to step up maintenance, CTA had to borrow against future funding with interest. In order to even rebuild the existing lines, former CTA presdient Frank Kursi was able to manipulate New Starts funds to pay for reconstruction rather than new construction, probably because the alternative would be shutting the line down.

[Chicago Shawn]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

Various decisions made by the consultants and other players have turned this into a why bother project. Having determined that the line could not have grade crossings, and that the powerline pylons could not be relocated, they end up with a single-track extension (to avoid powerline sag) that nonetheless requires demolition of the new Dempster Station and still doesn't quite get to Old Orchard.

Given the dispersed nature of the destinations, which are both east and west of the Edens, probably a better idea would be to just turn the ROW into a busway that shuttle buses from the mall, the courthouse, Old Orchard Woods, etc., could use for a quick nonstop run to Dempster Terminal.

I agree 100%, but if the cost estimates come out about even, then rail is probably a better option. A one-seat ride option is preferable for attracting users, has lower emissions and lower operational costs. I would imagine that bus connections to the court house can still be done by just utilizing the existing CTA 205 route, and two PACE Routes, the 208 and 422. 54A can be short turned at Dempster Street for some additional savings.

[sammyg]

Originally Posted by Chicago Shawn

And connect to those new rail lines to what, a 120 year old system that is literally falling apart in places? The trains have had to slow down to 6 MPH in places because the tracks and structure beneath them is in such poor shape. In order to step up maintenance, CTA had to borrow against future funding with interest. In order to even rebuild the existing lines, former CTA presdient Frank Kursi was able to manipulate New Starts funds to pay for reconstruction rather than new construction, probably because the alternative would be shutting the line down.

But where do they get the maintenance money? They can't reject the funding for new rails and get funds for something else instead.

[whyhuhwhy]

Originally Posted by Chicago Shawn

Peace Time spending? You are aware of the two front war going on right now in Iraq and Afghanistan, right? That alone is sucking up a few billion each month.

What kind of question is that? No I wasn't aware we were still spending money on a war with Iraq and Afghanistan. One thing for sure, there is no global world war going on right now!

[whyhuhwhy]

Originally Posted by Chicago3rd

My response was to the word “Unprecedented” being used. Is the spending now “Unprecedented”? I get tired of the hysterical libertarians.

Have you read what the Transportation stimulus dollars for our state is? It's pathetic. It's all road resurfacing! Nothing new! http://www.dot.state.il.us/stimulus/index.html

We are creating new debt that makes the old debt look like peanuts. And for what? Stuff like that? If we can't question what the heck we are getting for our money what the heck does that say? It's sad that when you only QUESTION the massive spending we are doing right now you are just written off as a "hysterical libertarian." Come on let's grow up here and not make this personal. Is it wrong to question all this new debt just because Obama and not Bush is the one creating it? That seems to be the tone in here. Can we get past that in this forum? As someone helping pay for all this, you said it yourself, we should at least know what we are getting for the dollar. Not sure why we just only trust the politicians and hand over the keys with no discussion just because the United States Government in 2009 now looks like Illinois rather than Texas. $8 billion for things like high speed rail is great but it gets lost in the $787 billion in massive spending we are doing on other things that are not investment quality IMO.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

Various decisions made by the consultants and other players have turned this into a why bother project. Having determined that the line could not have grade crossings, and that the powerline pylons could not be relocated, they end up with a single-track extension (to avoid powerline sag) that nonetheless requires demolition of the new Dempster Station and still doesn't quite get to Old Orchard.

Given the dispersed nature of the destinations, which are both east and west of the Edens, probably a better idea would be to just turn the ROW into a busway that shuttle buses from the mall, the courthouse, Old Orchard Woods, etc., could use for a quick nonstop run to Dempster Terminal.

^ Count me in as one of those why bother people.

If the assholes at Westfield are against extending the rail line onto their property, which is silly because the whole idea of the Yellow Line extension is to extend the rail line to Old Orchard Mall (from which I'm sure Old Orchard merchants will benefit), then let them go fuck themselves (a lingo we often use in New York).

They seem to do fine without the train extension, and pretty much all of the retailers that Old Orchard has already exist in the city. Why should the CTA bother with this expensive extension?

[Chicago Shawn]

Originally Posted by whyhuhwhy

What kind of question is that? No I wasn't aware we were still spending money on a war with Iraq and Afghanistan. One thing for sure, there is no global world war going on right now!

It was a rhetorical question. This is not a time of global war, but this certainly isn't peace time, and the budget reflects that. That is all I was responding to.

But where do they get the maintenance money?

There will be some operational savings from short turning the 54A, and ridership growth will bring in some more farebox revenue. Whether or not that offsets the additional maintenance costs, I don't know.

[Chicago Shawn]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Count me in as one of those why bother people.

If the assholes at Westfield are against extending the rail line onto their property, which is silly because the whole idea of the Yellow Line extension is to extend the rail line to Old Orchard Mall (from which I'm sure Old Orchard merchants will benefit), then let them go fuck themselves (a lingo we often use in New York).

They seem to do fine without the train extension, and pretty much all of the retailers that Old Orchard has already exist in the city. Why should the CTA bother with this expensive extension?

The local management was very much in favor of the extension coming to the doorstep of the mall. I have heard they were even talking expansion plans around it. It was Westfield Corportate down in Australia that was opposed. I think it will still generate increased ridership, but the alignment is disappointing. The terminal is in the worst location for pedestrian connections, making people walk through parking lots to the mall; and its too difficult to walk west of the Edens for the average person to do it willingly. The single track also rules out future extensions and restricts headways. I can see delays already at Dempster, should a train leave Old Orchard behind schedule. I do believe that the mall will probably grow towards the train over time, placing expansions on the open lots.

[ardecila]

The problem I see is that the main intervening parking lot between the station and the mall is owned not by Westfield but by the mid-rise modernist office building. Some sort of deal would have to be struck to trade their parking for parking in CTA's garage, and then Westfield would have to buy the land and build on it. In short, it seems pretty unlikely, even though I did say it was possible earlier.

What is perhaps a little more possible is that the reconstruction of the Old Orchard Road interchange will offer a more complete set of sidewalks, perhaps with crossing signals, safety barriers, and streetscaping, and this project will also include expanded sidewalks along Old Orchard Road both east and west of the interchange to accommodate pedestrian travel.

The government of Skokie seems fairly enlightened in their approach to transit, so surely they would recognize this problem and either improve it themselves or push CTA to do it.

[OhioGuy]

What's so bad about the location of the yellow line at Old Orchard Road? It's barely a two block walk from the station to the mall. And as pointed out, the mall will have the option to expand toward the station in the future. Yeah, it's not exactly ideal having people walk alonside or through the parking lots that currently occupy the space between Old Orchard and the proposed station, but it's still only two blocks. And regarding the office parks on the other side of the Edens, they're still within walking distance. The location of this station keeps just about everything (the mall, high school, office parks, and the hospital) within a 10 minute or less walk from the proposed station.

As for a single track, that doesn't seem to be that big of an issue to me either. It's not likely the yellow line would be extended in the future because that's just extending the line further & further into the suburbs. If you live beyond Skokie, you might as well go to a Metra station to get into the city rather than taking a CTA train that has many many many stops along the way. And in terms of frequencies, how much time is it estimated a train will take to travel from Dempster to Old Orchard and back?

[Mr Downtown]

^What's bad is that it's a long unpleasant walk to any of the actual destinations. Even the walk to the mall would be long enough that only employees would ever actually do it. There's a big psychological difference between a 1300-foot walk through a suburban parking lot and a 1300-foot walk down Michigan Avenue. And a long walk from the terminal west to an office building, over the top of the Edens and then past the entrance ramps and forest preserve and parking lots, is something that only the nondriving immigrant cleaning staff would ever even attempt. Look at the infinitesimal number of employees in Cumberland Road office buildings who arrive via the Blue Line.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

What's so bad about the location of the yellow line at Old Orchard Road? It's barely a two block walk from the station to the mall. And as pointed out, the mall will have the option to expand toward the station in the future. Yeah, it's not exactly ideal having people walk alonside or through the parking lots that currently occupy the space between Old Orchard and the proposed station, but it's still only two blocks. And regarding the office parks on the other side of the Edens, they're still within walking distance. The location of this station keeps just about everything (the mall, high school, office parks, and the hospital) within a 10 minute or less walk from the proposed station.

^ What's wrong is that an organization known as the CTA is trying to extend a mass transit line to connect hundreds of thousands of train riders to a shopping center, and instead of appreciating it the foreign-based owner of the shopping center is being a total douche bag about it, even ignoring its own management. So why waste the time and energy? Let Old Orchard have its car-only access for another 50 years and lets focus on mass transit expansions elsewhere.

This is EXACTLY why we should focus more on projects like the Clinton subway, Carrol Ave/Clinton transitway, etc where building mass transit actually makes sense.

[ChicagoChicago]

Originally Posted by Chicago3rd

My response was to the word “Unprecedented” being used. Is the spending now “Unprecedented”? I get tired of the hysterical libertarians.

Are you really trying to argue that the current spending is NOT unprecedented? The link you showed cited WWII as the largest federal spending in relation to GDP. A time when we committed nearly 2 million soldiers to the war, and countless people back home supporting it. That's what you compare our current spending to? Your argument is an EPIC FAILURE.

[denizen467]

How much prospect would there be for Old Orchard Terminal to become a big park-n-ride facility?

[ardecila]

That's the point... bringing the park-n-ride business of the Yellow Line closer to the Edens where it's more accessible and visible to regional traffic. Garages are planned at Old Orchard and (I think) Dempster. Some of the garage at the Old Orchard station will be dedicated to providing replacement spaces for Niles North, who is trading away their parking lot. However, higher stories of the garage would be set aside for CTA riders.

Unfortunately, this gigantic garage will only serve as one more impediment between the new station and the mall, as if 1/4 mile of surface lots wasn't enough.

Dammit, why does CTA make such half-assed connections to everything? Back in the day, department stores would beg to have their own connections into the CTA system - Carson Pirie Scott used to have connections to the Loop and to the State Street Subway, and the Merchandise Mart still has its connection. Recently built connections, however, tend to be highly inconvenient. At Midway, you have to walk a really long way - not fun with heavy suitcases - and go up and down several flights of stairs. At Clinton, you have to walk down the stairs, down to the Randolph concourse (if it's open) then up another flight of stairs to get to the platforms at Ogilvie.

Business leaders in the city love the CTA for bringing their employees to work, but when it comes to any sort of concrete statements of support, they all scoff and cite security concerns. It's high time that we started getting some property owners who welcome CTA service to their buildings.

[wrab]

^ Yeah - it boggles my little mind that any retail operator would eschew a dedicated transit link.

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

^What's bad is that it's a long unpleasant walk to any of the actual destinations. Even the walk to the mall would be long enough that only employees would ever actually do it. There's a big psychological difference between a 1300-foot walk through a suburban parking lot and a 1300-foot walk down Michigan Avenue. And a long walk from the terminal west to an office building, over the top of the Edens and then past the entrance ramps and forest preserve and parking lots, is something that only the nondriving immigrant cleaning staff would ever even attempt. Look at the infinitesimal number of employees in Cumberland Road office buildings who arrive via the Blue Line.

I can attest to that, having done such a walk once last year en route to the Apple Store, close to the Christmas holiday, when there was scant parking available. I had trouble just finding a sidewalk. The mall exists in that special kind of American hell that is all paved lots, auto exhaust, and fast food joints.