Atlanta Project Thread IV

[jpk1292000]

Originally Posted by Terminus

Summerhill has a supermarket anchor. It will probably draw from this trade area.

Has the flag on the Summerhill grocer been announced?

[ATL_J]

The area where these developments are occurring aren't great retail sites for users such as grocers. They're not on high visibility roads with good regional access and given the relative lack of density and with no potential future redevelopment of the single family housing which dominates the area, it would be a tough sell to get any sort of grocer on board. Grocers are often looking for 20,000+ households in their trade zones and even smaller grocers like Aldi want 15,000+ households with traffic counts of 20,000+ daily. For reference, that stretch of Boulevard is getting around 8-9,000 trips.

Where I do think you could see some larger neighborhood serving retail choose to locate would be on some of the vacant sites near the penitentiary. McDonough Boulevard has the capacity to handle the access and serves as an east / west corridor that would make an attractive location for retail. The large site at the corner of McDonough / Sawtwell would make sense for a grocer anchor mixed-use development in the future when values allow, but I believe the site has a lot of foundation issues so who knows.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by jpk1292000

Has the flag on the Summerhill grocer been announced?

I thought it was supposed to be a Publix, but if that was the case I'm surprised the project hasn't started yet. Maybe that fell through? Given Lidl's aggressive expansion in the metro, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Lidl move into the area at some point.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Cheaper land should mean it's easier to build parking garages at the very least.

Construction costs are the most expensive thing about developing residential. The land is a relatively small component of the project and the cheap land costs allow the developers to not have to build structured parking that would be required if the site was smaller / more expensive. Because higher density construction inherently cost more developers would need to be able to charge more per unit to make the project viable, but they would have to be confident they could get those rents and fill up the project. Even if they do feel confident, investors and lenders would also have to feel confident. The reason they might not feel confident is if they're building dense multifamily development that drives their rents up, their project would then be competing with other midrise product in locations such as Memorial Drive.

The market is playing out. I suppose the city or whomever could try and limit new development until future values are there to justify higher density construction? I'm not sure what sort of lawsuits that might lead to though.

I think the bigger question is why the city and/or the BeltLine haven't put more resources into acquiring some of these sites. They could've bought them for fair market value and they have more flexibility in holding the land and/or doing development that isn't purely profit driven.

[ATLarchitect]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

Construction costs are the most expensive thing about developing residential. The land is a relatively small component of the project and the cheap land costs allow the developers to not have to build structured parking that would be required if the site was smaller / more expensive. Because higher density construction inherently cost more developers would need to be able to charge more per unit to make the project viable, but they would have to be confident they could get those rents and fill up the project. Even if they do feel confident, investors and lenders would also have to feel confident. The reason they might not feel confident is if they're building dense multifamily development that drives their rents up, their project would then be competing with other midrise product in locations such as Memorial Drive.

The market is playing out. I suppose the city or whomever could try and limit new development until future values are there to justify higher density construction? I'm not sure what sort of lawsuits that might lead to though.

I think the bigger question is why the city and/or the BeltLine haven't put more resources into acquiring some of these sites. They could've bought them for fair market value and they have more flexibility in holding the land and/or doing development that isn't purely profit driven.

Thank you - exactly... this comes up each time this blog sees a surface parking lot. I've shared this previously but it's worth repeating for those who are unaware:

Parking is an incredibly expensive part of overall construction costs. Surface parking on average costs between $5,000 and $10,000 to construct PER PARKING SPACE (grading, drainage, finishing). Structured parking is exponentially more expensive and can cost $25,000 to $50,000+ per space. Underground Parking - forget about it - you're talking $50,000+ per space. Developers have a financial pro-forma to hit and trust me they don't enjoy sinking so much money into parking. But if the space allows, they're going to use the path of least resistance and lowest cost since they have to justify costs with investors and pass those costs along to the end user.

Don't beat up the developer or design team... demand changes at the City level on mandatory parking minimums or incentivize developers to be more thoughtful about parking with F.A.R bonuses or financial benefits for better land use.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

given the relative lack of density and with no potential future redevelopment of the single family housing which dominates the area.

I don’t have an opinion about a grocery store at either location at the moment, just that the area will still be a food desert despite having more residents and density compared to other areas in the city.

I agree with most of what you’re saying, but think you’re really downplaying growth in the area and what % of the area is anticipated to see continued growth. We’re already seeing massive transformations in Chosewood Park and the SFH portion compared to the development opportunities in the surrounding areas is relatively small, especially for Atlanta SFH neighborhood standards. I’d even go as far to say that several of the areas of SFH’s will not be retained despite efforts, particularly many homes along Milton Ave & Terrace west of Hill St. If they are retained, that’s only about 20 structures and again, not much land compared with what could be developed.

The Empire project on Boulevard alone is 33 acres. For comparison that is equivalent of Inman Park’s Commercial District from Inman way to Bernina.



I agree with ATLarchitect that change needs to occur at the city level. There’s a lot that plays into this, including affordable housing and the inclusionary zones that provide bonuses to developers... but the ground floor of what can be built should be raised otherwise we’ll just see the minimum the developer can deliver to a make $.

[ATL_J]

@StreetAdvocate

I wouldn't call this area a food desert. Within 3-miles of the Boulevard / McDonough there are 3 Krogers, a Publix, 2 Piggly Wigglys, an ALDI, and multiple neighborhood markets in addition to another potential grocery in Summerhill. The point I was trying to make previously is that you need a lot of households to support even a small grocery store in addition to certain levels of income. I certainly understand the potential the area has with density which is why I think there exists the possibility to have a grocer in the future.

[Atlriser]

Yes the Glenwood Kroger is not even a 10 min walk on the Beltline from Boulevard and maybe 2 miles max by road. I’ve walked the trail many times. Even though it’s unpaved it’s easy to traverse. There’s also 2 other Kroger’s less than 10 mins away southeast and southwest of the site. It is not a food desert at all.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

@StreetAdvocate

I wouldn't call this area a food desert. Within 3-miles of the Boulevard / McDonough there are 3 Krogers, a Publix, 2 Piggly Wigglys, an ALDI, and multiple neighborhood markets in addition to another potential grocery in Summerhill. The point I was trying to make previously is that you need a lot of households to support even a small grocery store in addition to certain levels of income. I certainly understand the potential the area has with density which is why I think there exists the possibility to have a grocer in the future.

Im quoting one of you, but shame on you both. You realize a food desert is generally when groceries are 0.5-1 mile from an area, right? Am I really having to explain to you what a food desert is?

Aldi is minimum 1.2, Carver minimum 1.3, Piggly Wiggly is minimum 1.5, Glenwood Kroger is further. The point of food deserts in urban areas are groceries accessible to those without a car, able bodied, or having the luxury of strolling to another census tract to get to a grocery. Low income levels are also pulled into consideration. Chosewood Park hasn’t been known for being above the median income threshold. Feel like plenty of y’all made that point clear previously, but thought I’d remind you.

I would point you to city of Atlanta’s shift ATL gis map that had food deserts, but it appears to be down.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Aldi is minimum 1.2, Carver minimum 1.3, Piggly Wiggly is minimum 1.5, Glenwood Kroger is further.

I lived in Cambridge MA, and the closest food store was a Whole Foods 1.3 miles away. Walked it plenty of times, even in the winter. I mostly shopped next to work and took my groceries home on the bus, however.

You need a lot of density to support lots of grocery stores, and the south side of ATL does not have it. Grocery stores are a low margin business, and sure, low income areas make the economics even harder for a large grocery store to survive. Atlanta has built so many grocery stores in the past 15 years- it used to be the Publix on Piedmont was the one one serving Downtown and Midtown. I still can't believe Downtown ATL does not have a grocery store. It seems like in Atlanta, and perhaps other cities, people have to populate an area, and the grocery store is the last thing to follow.

This area you are talking about will get a grocery store in at least 5 years, with all the development going on.

[Street Advocate]

My point is no matter what way you want to cut it personally, how few houses there may be right now, how many will be there in the future, or whether a grocery comes to the area in the future, the area is considered a food desert due to its current proximity or lack thereof to groceries. Period. I’m not saying grocery stores business models will work right now. I’m not saying anything other than the area is federally designated as a food desert despite personal opinions projected on these boards.

[Tuckerman]

Holy Moly. I have just discovered that I live in a food desert. The nearest Sprouts is 1.1 miles from my house, the nearest Publix is even further -almost 2 miles; Kroger the same; even Target, Walmart and Aldi are a couple miles away and worst of all the only real proper store, Whole Foods, is slightly further near COSTCO. Fortunately I haven't been in a store for the past five months.

[NiffTheFox]

Originally Posted by Tuckerman

Holy Moly. I have just discovered that I live in a food desert. The nearest Sprouts is 1.1 miles from my house, the nearest Publix is even further -almost 2 miles; Kroger the same; even Target, Walmart and Aldi are a couple miles away and worst of all the only real proper store, Whole Foods, is slightly further near COSTCO. Fortunately I haven't been in a store for the past five months.

Evidently, I do as well.

[Atlriser]

As do I under those definitions in the middle of Grant Park.....

Honestly until Kroger Glenwood was built it was over 5 miles to a grocer for the first 15 years I lived here and yet it wasn’t a big deal. Who comes up with this crap? It’s a little ridiculous if you ask me.

As a child the closest store was an Ingles 15 miles by car in West GA. I can’t think of a single family who had a problem with that honestly. Many of them still live there. It seems people look for problems to create instead of addressing real issues in the world many days. Just my opinion. A grocer will come soon to Summerhill. It’ll be one of 15 or so within 3 miles when there were none 10-12 years ago. It wasn’t an issue when I moved to Grant Park 20 years ago. It’s not an issue today. Don’t create fake problems when there are real ones to discuss.

And yes I have a car so I’m privileged I suppose but when I moved on my street 20 years ago I was the only resident within 2 blocks with a car. The existing residents had many problems but lack of a grocer within a mile wasn’t one mentioned and many of the same people still live around me and I’m close with them.

[jjordan1023]

I've had a few people ask me about it recently; therefore, if anyone is interested in access to my comprehensive development map, which tracks projects throughout the city, you can purchase an annual pass at this link: https://my.cheddarup.com/c/metro-atl...ent-map-access

This map displays recently completed development projects, projects that are currently under construction, projects that are planned in the near future, and also prime parcels of land for development or redevelopment. Additionally, the map outlines opportunities for pedestrian and vehicular infrastructure improvements and strategic transit expansion throughout the region. I update the map daily, and I'm always looking for feedback and suggestions for additions or improvements.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by jjordan1023

I've had a few people ask me about it recently; therefore, if anyone is interested in access to my comprehensive development map, which tracks projects throughout the city, you can purchase an annual pass at this link: https://my.cheddarup.com/c/metro-atl...ent-map-access

This map displays recently completed development projects, projects that are currently under construction, projects that are planned in the near future, and also prime parcels of land for development or redevelopment. Additionally, the map outlines opportunities for pedestrian and vehicular infrastructure improvements and strategic transit expansion throughout the region. I update the map daily, and I'm always looking for feedback and suggestions for additions or improvements.

+1 for the content in this map. Incredibly detailed and comprehensive. Not sure any entity in Atlanta has something as thorough as this.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

With the advent of apps, such as Fresh Direct and Instacart, are food deserts really food deserts anymore...?

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by NYbyWAYofGA

With the advent of apps, such as Fresh Direct and Instacart, are food deserts really food deserts anymore...?

Do they take food stamps? If they do, are delivery costs withheld as not to eat into low income family’s limited budgets?

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Do they take food stamps? If they do, are delivery costs withheld as not to eat into low income family’s limited budgets?

This is a direct quote from you:

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

You realize a food desert is generally when groceries are 0.5-1 mile from an area, right?

Where in that statement does it say that receiving public assistance is a qualifier...?

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by NYbyWAYofGA

This is a direct quote from you:



Where in that statement does it say that receiving public assistance is a qualifier...?

I’m going to recommend that you spend a couple minutes one afternoon and read about it. It is fun to know this stuff and also helps connect the dots with land use and several other planning concepts.

After spending some time with it, should make sense why a food desert for low income urban neighborhoods where people work multiple jobs, are transit reliant, with a job that requires you to be on site and/or perform physical labor, and may or may not be in a single parent household will have different stipulations for what a food desert is considered for people who don’t have to worry about what delivery fees or whether a company accepts food stamps.

I’ll add, I am not familiar whether SNAP is covered on any or perhaps select delivery platforms. Come to think of it, other than regular delivery from restaurants, I don’t think I’ve ever had groceries delivered.